3 phase domestic supply

[John-SJW]

I watched this vid on Youtube. Interesting. They have 3 phase supplies. Does anyone know the cost of upgrading from a single to a 3 phase domestic supply?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7wxNtrorQ&lc=UgyPTN2d89tBByfm4Dx4AaABAg.9CrcYe7x50b9CsC6DnPJKw

 

[snowhead]

There are too many variables
You'd need to get a quote for your property from the network operator.

3 phase may not be available immediately outside your property, they may have to dig up and run a cable from many metres away.
There may be 3 phase outside but no spare capacity on either or both of the other phases, the network may have to upgraded.
Costs will be higher if the works involve crossing over a busy road.
And more.

 

[John-SJW]

It looks like 3 phase will be far more common as gas is phased out.

OK, what would be the minimum, in ballpark, from experience of people here, if 3 phase is directly outside in the street, to upgrade to say an average semi, and terraced? Any offers?

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

I have worked in a domestic property with 2 phases before.
Will be interesting to see how standard single phase supplies cope with a house with an Electric Boiler, EV Charger, Induction Hob and Electric Shower in the near future. At the moment the Priority Units are a decent solution to the EVC/Shower situation, but chuck a boiler in there and I dunno.
Albeit new houses don’t have electric showers usually.

I went to a bungalow only 3 days ago to change a failed LED Lamp, newly renovated with 2 8.7kW Showers, 6kW Induction Hob and a 4kW Double Over. 60A Cutout. Shocking design.

 

[snowhead]

Western Power want £2k to move a single phase cutout 10mtrs, including excavation.
So I'd guess to replace with 3 phase could be £4k

 

[pc1966]

It looks like 3 phase will be far more common as gas is phased out.

I suspect the reality is demand limitation will become the norm.

That was all part of the original "smart meter" plan - that the DNO could cut equipment (like freezers, heating, etc, that will be fine for a half our or so) for short times to deal with demand peaks.

But really it is looking like the move away from gas for heating/cooking and towards EV cars will totally outpace the supply grid, no matter what folk think about 'prosumers' having their own PV supply, etc. So in reality stuff like car charges and other high power loads will have to be managed more centrally to stay within the grid's capacity and/or the generation capacity.

 

[John-SJW]

The grid generation can cope with EV demand, as EV use rises, less electricity is being used to refine oil.

I suppose a problem is having 3 phase supplies in each home to cope with instant electric water heating and EV charging.

At the ridiculous price they are asking to upgrade to three phase supplies, to get decent instant electric hot water heating, it would seem it would be better to spend the money on installing a Tesla Powerwall type of battery. Charge this up from the single phase supply, aided by solar, then high current instant electric water heaters can be used that do not take up space. The maximum is 11.5 kW on single phase, which is OK, but needs to be a higher kW (unless two are coupled up to a shower). Using a Powerwall battery, using stored electricity, a beefier instant water heater can be used.

Using a Grohe Raindance style of aerated low water flow shower heads will really help.

I can see instant electric taps becoming more common, such as boiling water Qooker style of taps and smaller taps for basins. They have the added advantage of no cold dead-leg piping, so less water used and hot water instantly at the tap. Also eliminating a dangerous worktop kettle, with loose cables for children to grad, is highly desirable.

 

[nicebutdim]

The grid generation can cope with EV demand, as EV use rises, less electricity is being used to refine oil.

I'd be pretty certain that consumption by oil refineries in the UK would be eclipsed by requirement for EVs, should their use become widespread.

 

[John-SJW]

I'd be pretty certain that consumption by oil refineries in the UK would be eclipsed by requirement for EVs, should their use become widespread.

The head of the National Grid said they do not need more power generation. The Fully Charged channel did a vid a number of years ago pointing out that one refinery alone consumed the equiv electricity of Leicester and Coventry combined. As less fuel is being refined the electricity then become available for EV charging.

In pollution terms, we used fossil fuel, mainly coal, to produced electricity which then made petrol which then polluted again - two levels of pollution. Even using coal generation, using EVs there is only one level of pollution. BTW, in a few years coal generation will be completely gone. EVs are excellent on more than one level for sure.

EVs will come in quick, very quick. Prices of EVs are tumbling while ranges are increasing, while very cheap to run. Toyota have announced a solid state battery that will be on the market ~5 years - was to be a big world launch at the Tokyo Olympics but Covid got in the way. . Twice as much storage per size and weight with 10 mins charge using a fast charger.

The tipping point to EVs is here.

Look at Tony Seba. Worth watching:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y916mxoio0E&t=1s

 

[pc1966]

pointing out that one refinery alone consumed the equiv electricity of Leicester and Coventry combined.

That sounds a rather misleading claim.

That might well be the total energy consumption of the refinery, but I seriously doubt that is what it actually draws from the grid. Generally plants like that have their own CHP system since:

• They actually need heat and electricity
• By going CHP you get around 80% thermodynamic efficiency, compared to around 40% for electricity-only.
• You avoid the transmission losses by generating on-site
• They have lots of low-grade / low commercial value hydrocarbons from the refining process they can burn to fuel the CHP plant, so cheaper than a commercial supplier using natural gas, etc.

 

[nicebutdim]

There are currently 37,500,000 vehicles registered for use on UK roads. We have an increasing population and EVs are being encouraged as a replacement for combustion engined vehicles.

Even if only half of currently registered vehicles were changed for EVs, I'm not seeing how a 50% reduction in electricity consumption from oil refineries will provide sufficient energy. Let's also remember the aim to move away from generation through fossil fuels, along with inadequate provision for replacement generation. Remember also the ageing network through which electron flow in our towns and cities.

One last point would be your mention of EVs having only one level of pollution - electricity generation. Setting aside the vast consumption of resources required in the production of new vehicles, there is that huge issue of widescale pollution caused by the mining of materials required for the production of lithium technology cells. Granted there are constant developments in battery technology, but we're currently in the here and now.

 

[John-SJW]

The channel I linked to in the first post, Fully Charged, I strongly advice many to subscribe. I have been subscribed for about eight years, the videos have been made for ten by Robert Llewellyn, actor. They come out at least one a week, sometimes more in a week. It was originally for EVs and hybrids, but now it is focused on non-burning of fossil fuel. He got into the sideline on non-EVs to explain the the reservations expressed here.

One older vid was clear that just one refinery used the equivalent electricity as Leicester and Coventry combined. Some refineries have direct supplies to the local power station they use so much. Llewellyn said he was shocked hearing about it, with the manger of the station being proud about it.

On another James Kelloway, Energy Intelligence Manager, from National Grid ESO says the grid can cope with increased levels of EVs. Go to 13 mins 58 sec. He clearly states that the grid can copes:

View: https://youtu.be/ONp8dismI-Q?t=837


On many other vids this has also been stated. Worth looking at all the vid, as Kelloway explains matters very simply. Kelloway does stress the importance of balancing the grid using energy and electricity storage using water, large electric battery banks and hydrogen. This eliminates peaker power stations.

Other ideas are around to balance. One is extracting electricity out of the EVs batteries connected to the grid, putting that back into the grid, with the billing both ways done automatically. All controlled via the grid's control rooms.

I know that some people plug in EVs, or hybrids, into remote homes, or homes prone to power outages, to power the essentials. For nearly 20 years people in the USA have done that with Prius hybrids. If the power lines are down the car takes over.
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One last point would be your mention of EVs having only one level of pollution - electricity generation. Setting aside the vast consumption of resources required in the production of new vehicles, there is that huge issue of widescale pollution caused by the mining of materials required for the production of lithium technology cells. Granted there are constant developments in battery technology, but we're currently in the here and now.

Problems in mining the ores has been over exaggerated, by the oil lobby. One problem is political, like extraction in the likes of the Congo who use child labour. Lithium is one of the most common ores in the world with most being on the earth's surface. Australia will be a large source for the minerals and ores.

The point about new battery technologies is relevant. New materials are being used in R&D with some technologies producing exceptional results. Tesla are to announce an improvement in their technologies in the next week or so. Toyota have announced their solid state breakthrough, with market introduction in five years. By the time EVs are ubiquitous, which will be quick, batteries will have progressed substantially. That is not crystal ball gazing.

Also, batteries will have a very long life. One a battery set is not suitable for EVs, they are suitable for other uses. Germany has grid battery banks using used Smart Car batteries. Many of the innards of a modern battery are recyclable.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'd fully agree that the grid can cope with increased levels of EVs, but to what degree? A few thousand new vehicles represents an increase and clearly wont trouble the grid, but I can't see how our existing infrastructure could hope to manage if that figure was 20,000,000. Stating that we can cope with an increase is fairly meaningless, unless that increase is quantified.

I didn't mention the mining of lithium, but the mining of 'materials required for battery production'. There is a distinct difference and I don't think those living in 3rd world countries (or China) in regions where such mining takes place might be inclined to share your opinion. Don't get me wrong - all mining has an impact and creates pollution. I'm not suggesting that mining should be shut down, but simply countering your over-simplified statement that EVs generate only one level of pollution - at the source of electricity generation.

Battery technology has been advancing for as long as batteries have existed and those advances have been dramatic. You only have to look at the world of difference between power tools utilising nickel technology batteries and lithium ion technology to understand this, but presently we are churning out EVs with battery packs that are economically unfeasible to replace and that is not something which anyone is prepared to address. EVs are great for those who change their vehicle at a relatively young age, but the current crop aren't going to support a 2nd hand market running to anything like the age of perfectly serviceable, used combustion engined vehicles and this (sooner or later) will be reflected in resale values.

 

[John-SJW]

presently we are churning out EVs with battery packs that are economically unfeasible to replace and that is not something which anyone is prepared to address.

I do not know what you mean. You have been given an example of extended use of batteries when not suitable for EV use. I advise you to look and understand the Tony Seba video I posted. EVs will come in quick, we have reached the tipping point. Once fuel is difficult to obtain petrol cars will disappear within a few years.

The National Grid say the grid can cope with EV introduction without new power stations, we have to believe the experts, as they tend to know their own business. One of their tactics is grid balancing. Our opinions do not matter.

Your points about the construction materials adding extra pollution to an EV applies to all vehicles. This is a separate issue to the fuel used to propel the vehicles.

The point of the fuel to propel the vehicles. EVs have only one stage of pollution, not two as in fossil fuel vehicles. Also, if the electricity is produced via solar, wind and wave, the EVs have zero overall. Of course it is possible that refineries can be fed by wind, wave and solar, but we are still left with millions of vehicles pouring out poisonous fumes in highly populated urban areas within feet of millions of noses and lungs. And also needlessly burning a valuable resource like oil - the Shah of Iran said "oil is too valuable to burn".
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EVs are great for those who change their vehicle at a relatively young age, but the current crop aren't going to support a 2nd hand market running to anything like the age of perfectly serviceable, used combustion engined vehicles and this (sooner or later) will be reflected in resale values.

EVs will outlast ICE cars by twice as long as there are few moving parts with far fewer parts overall. They are simple. If an EV is say 15 years old needing a new battery pack. The new pack will be half the weight and size being far cheaper to buy than today, transforming the car in range and economy (it will be lighter). If the auto transmission needed replacing on an ICE car after 15 years, it only puts it back to stage one with no improvement after sending a considerable amount of money.

EVs will take over, and sooner than you think. We will all be driving them whether we like it or not. BTW, they are superb to drive.

 

[nicebutdim]

EVs will outlast ICE cars by twice as long as there are few moving parts with far fewer parts overall. They are simple. If an EV is say 15 years old needing a new battery pack. The new pack will be half the weight and size being far cheaper to buy than today, transforming the car in range and economy (it will be lighter). If the auto transmission needed replacing on an ICE car after 15 years, it only puts it back to stage one with no improvement after sending a considerable amount of money.

EVs will take over, and sooner than you think. We will all be driving them whether we like it or not. BTW, they are superb to drive.

We can compare the cost of failed components until the cows come home, but that doesn't address the core point I've made. My current vehicle is most likely to suffer from one or two failures during its lifetime - dual mass flywheel (approx £1200 repair to include labour and other affected components) and diesel particulate filter (£200 - £800 dependant on choice of aftermarket replacement). The combined cost of those repairs would pale into insignificance when compared with the cost of a replacement battery pack for a similar sized EV.

Future technology may extend average battery life to 15 years, but I'd contend that such a time scale would be far beyond the average expectation for most battery packs currently being manufactured. I use lithium batteries for several purposes and am absolutely convinced of their benefits - I'm also very aware of their limitations, despite progress that has been made over the last decade.

 

[John-SJW]

Are EVs bad for the environment. Conclusion is no:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

 

[nicebutdim]

As a resource, Youtube could provide a never ending supply of videos to support any position imaginable. I've made my points and you're welcome to disagree, but I see no merit in posting videos intended to push a particular agenda.

 

[John-SJW]

Your point is that EVs will cost more in the long run to maintain. That is false, based on myth and propaganda:

• EVs do not not needed servicing;
• They have about 14 moving parts, promising to have a life spans far, far greater than ICE cars;
• The batteries are dropping like lead balloons in price. (Did you look at Tong Seba's vid? Please do);

The new solid state Toyota battery:

• The prototype cells can fully charge in 15 minutes;
• Capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years;
• Millions of recharges before any degradation;
• Fully recharged in less than 15 minutes;
• Half the size and weight of existing batteries for the same storage;
• The price will be roughly the same as current batteries - in effect half the price.

Others are also working on solid state batteries.

 

[davesparks]

• EVs do not not needed servicing;

They are complex machines with moving parts, they will need some form of servicing or maintainence.
Machines with moving parts that don't receive proper maintainence fail.

Suggesting that electric vehicles don't need any servicing is nonsense.

 

[John-SJW]

As a resource, Youtube could provide a never ending supply of videos to support any position imaginable. I've made my points and you're welcome to disagree, but I see no merit in posting videos intended to push a particular agenda.

To make a point it is best to do some research, then some analysis. I have noticed these appalling cars you are fond of, which waste 80% of the energy in the tank, you have not mentioned the poison they pour out the tailpipes.

Best to look at and understand the videos I posted, all based on factual research. It is clear you never looked at them.

I do not have an opinion, I am concluding after research on the subject and analysis. Very different.

 

[davesparks]

• They have about 14 moving parts, promising to have a life spans far, far greater than ICE cars;

The new solid state Toyota battery:

• The prototype cells can fully charge in 15 minutes;
• Capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years;
• Millions of recharges before any degradation;
• Fully recharged in less than 15 minutes;
• Half the size and weight of existing batteries for the same storage;
• The price will be roughly the same as current batteries - in effect half the price.

They are promising lifespans? That's great but promises don't prove anything.

As you say, they are prototype batteries, not finished products, just prototypes. A lot of prototypes are nothing like their finished product if they even progress that far at all.

These are lots of predictions of what they 'will be' or 'will do' but you don't offer any evidence, just statements that appear to be straight out of a marketing department.

 

[John-SJW]

They are complex machines with moving parts, they will need some form of servicing or maintainence.
Machines with moving parts that don't receive proper maintainence fail.

Suggesting that electric vehicles don't need any servicing is nonsense.

EVs are simple. Very simple. A battery set, an electric motor and some solid-state control. EVs do not need an annual service. No oil, spark plugs or filters to change. No calibration. No host of other devices to fail either. The MOT will pick up any problems like wheel bearing and steering wear.

Some makers recommend you take them in for a walk around by a mechanic. That is more to drum up business for the dealer than what the car needs.

 

[pc1966]

EVs are simple. Very simple. A battery set, an electric motor and some solid-state control. EVs do not need an annual service. No oil, spark plugs or filters to change.

No friction brakes? No hydraulics to operate them? No mechanical steering linkages? No suspension? No bodywork to rust?

There are many other things that cars have that fail the MOT that are utterly unrelated to the engine.

I know, had more than one car fail to the point of being scrapped on rust damage to the underside and running gear when otherwise it was fine

 

[davesparks]

EVs are simple. Very simple. A battery set, an electric motor and some solid-state control. EVs do not need an annual service. No oil, spark plugs or filters to change. No calibration. No host of other devices to fail either. The MOT will pick up any problems like wheel bearing and steering wear.

Some makers recommend you take them in for a walk around by a mechanic. That is more to drum up business for the dealer than what the car needs.

I did not say that they need an annual service, I said that they will need maintainence or servicing.
As you have pointed out they still have bearings, steering components which all wear and require servicing or maintainence.
They will presumably still have brakes, lights, air conditioning, power steering, and the whole host of driver/passenger comforts and extras that normal cars do? These all can and do go wrong, need service/matinence.

Manufacturers have been pushing longer and longer service intervals for years at the detriment to the longevity of machines.
'maintainence free' and 'sealed for life' mechanisms are driving this culture of obsolesence where parts become disposable rather than repairable.

 

[John-SJW]

They are promising lifespans? That's great but promises don't prove anything.

As you say, they are prototype batteries, not finished products, just prototypes. A lot of prototypes are nothing like their finished product if they even progress that far at all.

These are lots of predictions of what they 'will be' or 'will do' but you don't offer any evidence, just statements that appear to be straight out of a marketing department.

If you had been keeping pace, you would know that Toyota were to announce the new solid state battery at the Tokyo Olympics to gain maximum publicity. Production in five years. Covid scuppered it. So they announced it a few weeks back in a low key way.

Toyota have finished the R&D stage. The technology is proven. It is now in the stage to get it manufactured in a mass scale. That means machines designed and made to manufacture the batteries and the factories set up.

This overspills to the domestic market in cheaper Powerwall types of batteries.
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No friction brakes? No hydraulics to operate them? No mechanical steering linkages? No suspension? No bodywork to rust?

There are many other things that cars have that fail the MOT that are utterly unrelated to the engine.

I know, had more than one car fail to the point of being scrapped on rust damage to the underside and running gear when otherwise it was fine

The MOT will pick up any of those faults. Braking is mainly magnetic. Toyota have sold few brake pads for the Prius, as they rarely operate. Friction brakes are just back up. Any problems on the cars will energise a warning light. So an MOT and any problems between the driver will be alerted. No annual service needed. They will need fixing if and when things go wrong. That is not servicing. Nothing to service.

 

[davesparks]

If you had been keeping pace, you would know that Toyota were to announce the new solid state battery at the Tokyo Olympics to gain maximum publicity. Production in five years. Covid scuppered it. So they announced it a few weeks back in a low key way.

Toyota have finished the R&D stage. The technology is proven. It is now in the stage to get it manufactured in a mass scale. That means machines designed and made to manufacture the batteries and the factories set up.

This overspills to the domestic market in cheaper Powerwall types of batteries.

Manufacturers announcing something doesn't mean they have it finished and ready to go to market, it just means that the marketing department wants to announce it.

If production isn't expected for another 5 years then it isn't a finished product ready for market is it!
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The MOT will pick up any of those faults. Braking is mainly magnetic. Toyota have sold few brake pads for the Prius, as they rarely operate. Friction brakes are just back up. Any problems on the cars will energise a warning light. So an MOT and any problems between the driver will be alerted. No annual service needed.

Servicing will be needed, no probably not annually, but then it isn't needed annually for any other vehicle. Servicing is recommended at set mileage intervals for vehicles.

Off the rope of my head some items which are included in standard vehicle services which will be the same for EVs are:
Check and replace brake fluid, replace pollen filters, check and replace power steering fluid, check and top up washer fluid, check and replace wiper blades.

I can get the service book for my car and we can go through everything that will need servicing exactly the same in an EV if you like?

A vehicle service is not just an oil and filter change, and it will still be required.

 

[John-SJW]

Manufacturers announcing something doesn't mean they have it finished and ready to go to market, it just means that the marketing department wants to announce it.

If production isn't expected for another 5 years then it isn't a finished product ready for market is it!

It is out of the labs, the R&D side. The tech is sorted. It is now given over to the men who will get it manufactured en mass. Very simple. Toyota stated that it will 2025 on the market. I am just repeating what I have already stated.

Tesla claim one million miles on their new batteries, available next year. They will announce on their big launch Battery Day in a week or two. This is not solid state though, but a good advance for sure.

Tesla’s new low-cost, long-life battery set for 2021 launch | Auto Express

Tesla’s next-generation battery pack could bring cost of EVs in-line with combustion-engined vehicles

www.autoexpress.co.uk

.

The point is that matters on batteries are changing fast. Billions is being spent in R&D on batteries around the world. It is coming to fruition.
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davesparks, no servicing needed on EVs. None. Only fixing when they rarely go wrong.

Just like most electrical products. Servicing an EV is like trying to service an immersion heater.

 

[davesparks]

davesparks, no servicing needed on EVs. None. Only fixing when they rarely go wrong.

What about the brakes? Brake fluid? Pollen filters? Air con? Washer fluid? Tyres? Body corrosion? Hinges? Locks?

They all are part of standard service procedures on vehicles and are still part of EVs.

 

[John-SJW]

These battery advances will cascade down to the domestic & commercial markets in Powerwall types of batteries. So expect to be involved in more EV charger points and Powerwall battery fitting with associated inverters, etc.
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What about the brakes? Brake fluid? Pollen filters? Air con? Washer fluid? Tyres? Body corrosion? Hinges? Locks?

They all are part of standard service procedures on vehicles and are still part of EVs.

Washer fluid? Are you kidding?
All of those do not need an annual service. The onboard computer will tell the driver if and when they need attention.

 

[ferg]

Well at least Mrs Ferg won't be able to put the wrong electrons in an E.V.

 

[davesparks]

Washer fluid? Are you kidding?
All of those do not need an annual service. The onboard computer will tell the driver if and when they need attention.

No I'm not kidding, that will be found on the service list for most vehicles.
Whilst the service may not be annually, which is something you introduced after your initial statement that no servicing is required, servicing will still be required.

It's a complex machine, it will need servicing in order to maintain peak performance and get the best lifespan, they all do.

Manufacturers, and marketing people, will claim that no servicing is required, but that's just bull to make thro products sound good and encourage the culture of obsolescence. If manufacturers can convince you to never have a vehicle serviced then they will be cashing in when your vehicle fails due to lack of servicing.

 

[John-SJW]

EVs are not complex. They are simple with few moving parts.

 

[davesparks]

EVs are not complex. They are simple with few moving parts.

Seriously? Are you really going to try and argue that an EV is a simple machine?

Do please give us your argument for them being a simple machine.

Maybe start with the basics, of the six simple machines which one do you think they are?

 

[nicebutdim]

All mechanical and electrical sytems require some degree of maintenance. Some components may be sealed and "maintenance free", which means throw away and replace complete assembly.

Battery prices fluctate according to market prices for their raw materials.

If Toyota have produced a battery which has proven capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years, that will be an incredible leap forward from current mass produced technology.


I'm not opposed to EVs at all, but having looked (several times over the years) at the numbers I can not come close to making the case for driving one myself.

I'm also not "fond" of owning any type of vehicle as they're a significant drain on income. If there was no need to run a vehicle in order to earn a living and ferry kids around, I'd be happy to get rid of mine and cut my expenditure by a not inconsiderable amount.

I'm happy for anyone to own an EV, but would suggest they look at all angles before making, what is, a significant investment,
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No friction brakes? No hydraulics to operate them? No mechanical steering linkages? No suspension? No bodywork to rust?

I'm really keen to know how their wheels turn on fixed hubs.


In all seriousness I would buy an EV tomorrow if the financial argument came anywhere close to viable. Maybe EVs are great in cities, but below are my requirements which I'd welcome anyone to make a recommendation on:

5 seat estate car.
Daily mileage varies from 20-300 miles.
Live in a hilly area and often tow reasonably heavy loads.

Current vehicle costs around £300 per year in servicing and maintenance and I'll expect one major repair at around £1000 during my ownership, which will probably be 8-10 years. Average mpg during my ownership is showing as 57.7 and costs £30-£40 each week to fuel. It's 5 years old and bought recently at 80k miles for £4k.

Previous vehicle was very similar and crunching all the numbers I've never managed to find any way of running an EV for similar annual costs - not even in the same ball park.

 

[davesparks]

Don't forget that realistically to own an EV you need a driveway.
Or like the guy round the corner from me you have to run a lead out of your window, over the pavement and into your EV at the side of the road.
He also 'reserves' the part of the street directly in front of his house with pallets when he goes out in the EV otherwise someone else will park there and he won't be able to charge it at all.

If I had an EV I'd have to run a lead out of a window and across our neighbours garden into the communal parking area (again if I've managed to get in to it and haven't ended up parking on the street down the road somewhere)

In a few weeks I'm moving to a top floor flat,

Plus anyone, like me, who is renting likely won't be able to have a charger installed, or even an outdoor socket.

So yeah, EVs are great for those people who own houses with driveways.

A far better reduction in pollution happened when everyone started working from home in March than I think EVs will ever bring about.

 

[John-SJW]

EVs are approaching the price of ICE cars. Once parity, then they will just take off. Look at the Tony Seba video.

I have two EV chargers on the pavement on my road. Fast chargers are everywhere. Shell are having one fast charger at every petrol station, with a schedule in place to phase out petrol pumps, as EVs take over. One station in London is now to be all EV charging.

I agree, cars are a pain. But! The advances in battery technology will cascade to homes. We will all see the changes if not in EVs, because we may not own one.

 

[davesparks]

I have two EV chargers on the pavement on my road. Fast chargers are everywhere. Shell are having one fast charger at every petrol station, with a schedule in place to phase out petrol pumps, as EVs take over. One station in London is now to be all EV charging.

Everywhere is a bit of an overstatement, there's a handful in a couple of car parks near here, but nowhere near enough to cater for a mass move to EVs and certainly not everywhere!

Petrol pumps won't be phased out for a very long time.

Yes EV chargers are mor prevalent in London, but that is to be expected and can't be taken as representative of the whole country.

 

[John-SJW]

Everywhere is a bit of an overstatement, there's a handful in a couple of car parks near here, but nowhere near enough to cater for a mass move to EVs and certainly not everywhere!

Petrol pumps won't be phased out for a very long time.

Yes EV chargers are mor prevalent in London, but that is to be expected and can't be taken as representative of the whole country.

Wise up. When EVs start to take over the chargers will be everywhere. They will be installed very quickly. Did you look at the Tony Seba video? The mass take up of ICE cars in 10 years? Unless you look at the vid it is best not comment on EVs.

 

[ferg]

Youtube is great source of entertainment but by nature is not the best place to get factual information.

The debate on this thread seems to be coming from two directions.
The current state of EV's and the charging infrastructure with a dose of realism and scepticism of marketing blurb. vs where it is hoped EV's and charging infrastructure will be in the future which is by nature driven by marketing blurb and hype.

I'm not sure anyone disagrees that EV's are a big part of the future but the reality for most of us is that it's a long way away and the current infrastructure is woefully inadequate.

I'd love to have EV's instead of fossil fuel burning vehicles but reality won't let me. I look forward to the day when I do.

There are some very real environmental, social and safety concerns over the mining of the materials required to build EV's which need to be addressed and that will only happen if the people who buy EV's show concern over it, in the same way we are now showing concern over the damage fossil fuels cause.

 

[mattg4321]

Wonder if this Tony Seba can let me know the lottery numbers for next weekend too.

I can’t think of even 1 EV charger in a public place within 5 miles of my house. Probably 100k people live in that area.