AFDD EICR - unsatisfactory report landlord

[Smem18]

Utter wrip-off nonsense, in my opinion.

I'd be tempted to go back to the inspecting company and ask them to put in writing the inspector's justification for a C2 coding when after a discussion with the NICEIC you've been advised that should only be a C3.... bet you get an amended report out of it.

We have looked up the building regs now as well and worked out they have misquoted them slightly. They have said british standard 421.1.7...no provision of AFDDs on circuits supplying sockets and applicances. The british standard only quotes "AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets...". They have added "appliances" on, which the british standard does not mention. We therefore think their quote of 5x AFDDs is excessive and calculate we think we only need 2. I explictly asked the quotation to be the minimum to bring it up to standard so am not happy about that. I have done exactly as you suggested and quoted what NIC told us to them to see what their response is

 

[Smem18]

We have looked up the building regs now as well and worked out they have misquoted them slightly. They have said british standard 421.1.7...no provision of AFDDs on circuits supplying sockets and applicances. The british standard only quotes "AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets...". They have added "appliances" on, which the british standard does not mention. We therefore think their quote of 5x AFDDs is excessive and calculate we think we only need 2. I explictly asked the quotation to be the minimum to bring it up to standard so am not happy about that. I have done exactly as you suggested and quoted what NIC told us to them to see what their response is

Hello everyone, in case this helps anyone else: we have had the original certificate overturned and now have been issued a satisfactory certificate within an hour of calling them and sending an email to follow-up the call. We quoted what the NIC EIC about the issue being catagorically a C3 not a C2 issue, I called them up on the fact they have misquoted the British Standard to include appliances when it is sockets only and quoted us for 5x AFDD's when only 2x are required to bring it up to standard (I had specifically asked for them to quote me the minimum required to bring it to safe standard and they ignored that), I expressed deep disappointment the electrician told me everything was fine and passed in-person but then I received an unsatisfactory report late at night - so I had no chance to quiz him or ask questions, and finally I explained we had got a second opinion off 4 other electricians who all unanimously told us it should be a C3 rating.

Ultimately this company has missed out on some busines from us as we plan to get the advisories done (on just the sockets that actually require them as per the BS 421.1.7!) so that we are up to speed, everything is safe, and don't have the issue in the future. But we will do this by getting competing quotations and without the artificial 28 day deadline pressure and panic (else potential £30k fine) they put us under. If they had just been transparent and spoken to me about the various options we probably would have booked them there and then to do it, but instead sent the most expensive possible solution in an email despite my requests otherwise.

 

[loz2754]

We have looked up the building regs now as well and worked out they have misquoted them slightly. They have said british standard 421.1.7...no provision of AFDDs on circuits supplying sockets and applicances. The british standard only quotes "AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets...". They have added "appliances" on, which the british standard does not mention. We therefore think their quote of 5x AFDDs is excessive and calculate we think we only need 2. I explictly asked the quotation to be the minimum to bring it up to standard so am not happy about that. I have done exactly as you suggested and quoted what NIC told us to them to see what their response is

I was just to about mention this "addition" of appliances to the wording of 421.1.7
This is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst.

 

[loz2754]

I would however point out that there are 3 circuits that feed sockets, not 2. The fridge and freezer circuit and 2 sockets circuits.
Unless the fridge and freezer are hard wired.

 

[Smem18]

I was just to about mention this "addition" of appliances to the wording of 421.1.7
This is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst.

Yes I am of the belief this company just has a blanket policy to do this to landlords in high rise buildings and send them the most expensive solution possible, as I explicitly asked them for (sorry) cheapest way to bring it to standard and even quoted some of the nice people in this forums suggestions and asked "please explore all avenues for a solution and come back to me with the most cost effective" and they simply just sent me the quotation for everything, even the C3 issue.

The survey was quite cheap so lesson learned. I had a lovely guy saved in my phone who came highly recommended on check a trade, but he wasn't available the day I needed to I panicked as needed to get it done and booked this big company who didn't have many reviews ("national surveyors"). The local electrician in my phone was £150 for the report and national surveyors was £89. I always like to go with local recommended tradespeople who you can actually have a conversation with and will take care of you start to finish and this is why (I am renovating a house elesewhere and all contractors have been local and its been great)

 

[Smem18]

I would however point out that there are 3 circuits that feed sockets, not 2. The fridge and freezer circuit and 2 sockets circuits.
Unless the fridge and freezer are hard wired.

Fridge and freezer are hard wired

 

[loz2754]

The local electrician in my phone was £150 for the report and national surveyors was £89.

Both of those are too cheap for a full EICR in my opinion. I am in the Midlands. I charge a minimum of £180.

 

[loz2754]

Glad you got it resolved.

 

[Smem18]

Both of those are too cheap for a full EICR in my opinion. I am in the Midlands. I charge a minimum of £180.

Think it might be a little cheaper here near London

 

[Mike Johnson]

London is more expensive.

 

[Rockingit]

Yeay!! Another Forum win!!

 

[buzzlightyear]

Yeay!! Another Forum win

drink all rounds then rocket .

 

[nicebutdim]

Attached is the quote the company sent me for the works which seems very high. I asked for the cheapest way possible to bring it to regulations

Quite unprofessional to quote for the fitting of Wylex protective devices in a Hager board. Either they're lax with paperwork or would have introduced an additional non-compliance to be picked up on subsequent EICRs.

 

[timhoward]

Quite unprofessional to quote for the fitting of Wylex protective devices in a Hager board. Either they're lax with paperwork or would have introduced an additional non-compliance to be picked up on subsequent EICRs.

That was my first reaction. Then I spotted "new consumer unit" so wondered if they were intending to change the lot.
It's sad that people earn a living by misleading people, ripping people off, and mis-using legislation intended to simply ensure things are safe for tenants.
Equally, great the OP fought back and got this sorted. A nice change for one of these threads to end up with a good result.

 

[littlespark]

Its good to see we are all singing from the same song sheet.

Its nice when everyone on the forum agrees, and there's no agro between opinions.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Having just been doing some surfing on Hager stuff, it seems that rather annoyingly their AFDD MCB's are double width, whereas their AFDD RCBO's are single. So anyone with a split board that needs modifying is totally stuffed unless you happen to have a load of spare ways and an installer with the skills and spares kit to modify it around.

They have bought out single module AFDDs now:

Hager ARR932U AFDD RCBO 32 Amp ARC Fault Detection Device

Hager ARR932U AFDD RCBO 32 Amp ARC Fault Detection Device. Thousands of Hager consumer units devices & accessories available with next day delivery. Order online now

www.consumerunitworld.co.uk

 

[pc1966]

They have bought out single module AFDDs now:

Hager ARR932U AFDD RCBO 32 Amp ARC Fault Detection Device

Hager ARR932U AFDD RCBO 32 Amp ARC Fault Detection Device. Thousands of Hager consumer units devices & accessories available with next day delivery. Order online now

www.consumerunitworld.co.uk

Its a dual RCD board, so putting in the AFDD/RCBO modules would really need another busbar segment so they are not off one of the RCDs.

Hager do an AFDD add-on for MCB, etc, that make double width if you needed arc-detection without residual current. I can't see many cases where that would be likely!

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Its a dual RCD board, so putting in the AFDD/RCBO modules would really need another busbar segment so they are not off one of the RCDs.

Personally, I would fit them on the RCD anyway, unless the customer particularly wanted them off it (and was happy to pay for it). Not ideal, but 2 RCDs in series, both in the same location, not a problem IMO

 

[pc1966]

Personally, I would fit them on the RCD anyway, unless the customer particularly wanted them off it (and was happy to pay for it). Not ideal, but 2 RCDs in series, both in the same location, not a problem IMO

Agreed, it is not dangerous, just not great "design" as you still have the risk of accumulated leakage tripping the RCD in spite of having coughed £120 or so per AFDD.

I don't know the Hager commercial boards well so don't know if you could just get a new section of busbar and extend the main switch L for the AFDD. As single-module they should fit after removing the MCBs, just the practicality of shuffling along and having the non-RCD bus to feed them.

 

[Midwest]

Hijack; is there a test methodology for AFDD's now, or just its self test? Just curious.