Bathroom Fan Fused at 3Amps

[ianphilip007]

Hello Guys

Just a quick question re Bathroom Fans and that some manufacturers state that they are to be supplied from a 3 Amp FCU

i have two Quries really that i just need clarification on if anybody can help.

1/ when the bathroom lighting is on a loop circuit ( and is supplying another room from the rose) Does the loop out from the bathroom rose have to be fitted to the supply side of the fcu and then onto the next light

2/or is it acceptable to leave it in the rose loop in even though the lights that it will supply will now be fused at 3A instead of 6A

 

[ianphilip007]

just to add the fcu (3amp) is on the incoming lighting supply to bathroom. option 1 above is the correct way as per regs, just wondered if option 2 would also be acceptable

 

[saveloy]

Option2 not good practice IMO.

 

[ianphilip007]

yes thats what i thought, would work but not happy that the rest of the lighting circuit onwards from bathroom would be rated at 3 amps. thanks saveloy
ill keep to option 1

 

[Johnny-G]

With option 1, the loop for the next room doesn't have to come from the FCU at all, it can stay at the rose.

 

[ianphilip007]

but johnny if the supply to the next room is left at the rose it would be fused down to 3amps via the fcu, and if the fan were to develop a fault it would also take out all lighting supplied from the bathroom rose. by running the loop from the fcu this is avoided would you agree.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Are you talking about fitting a RCD FCU into the loop feeding the bathroom so that the circuit wiring the bathroom then as RCD protection?

 

[ianphilip007]

no just a normal fcu (3amp) to fuse lighting circuit down to 3amps for timer fan (as manufactures ins) Rcd protection provided at CU for entire lighting circuit. only wanted the fan and bathroom light to be fused down to 3amps, so running the loop out of the bathroom rose to supply side of fcu.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Ok Ian so now why do you want the batrhroom light to come off the FCU and be fused at 3amp ?

 

[ianphilip007]

the fan im installing is a timer fan so i obviously need a swL,L,N. taking this from the bathroom rose to 3 pole isolator and then onto the fan. The manufacturer insists that the supply to the fan has to be fused at a max 3Amp rating. so if i insert a fcu(3a) on the bathroom lighting supply the fan will be fused down to 3 amps asits supply is fed from the bathroom rose. hope that makes sense

 

[Darkwood]

Souza619.... If you wish to advertise you need to become a forum sponsor .... its not a free service we provide as a forum, please contact the moderators to assist you if you wish to advertise or post links to companies websites.

 

[Engineer54]

the fan im installing is a timer fan so i obviously need a swL,L,N. taking this from the bathroom rose to 3 pole isolator and then onto the fan. The manufacturer insists that the supply to the fan has to be fused at a max 3Amp rating. so if i insert a fcu(3a) on the bathroom lighting supply the fan will be fused down to 3 amps asits supply is fed from the bathroom rose. hope that makes sense

I'll say it again, ....if the fan/timer ''NEEDS'' fusing down, then it should be provided and incorporated by the manufacturer of the unit. FCU fuses are NOT there to provide protection for equipment and accessories, they only provide suitable protection for cables/flex's!!

 

[ackbarthestar]

I couldn't agree more. Overload protection is the responsibility of the manufacturers.

If a fan needs to be protected by a 3A cartridge fuse then it says a lot about the confidence of these fan manufacturers.

There is some complete rubbish around in the market place

 

[Guitarist]

Agree with the above. However, when we are being told that to comply with regs we HAVE to supply via 3 amp fuse, and an electrician even went to prison when he didn't do so (regardless of whether a 3 amp fuse would have prevented the fire), it puts us between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Octopus]

The way I look at this issue is if the customer wants or needs a fan and the fan needs fusing down, then its longer to install and more parts to mark up.

In one word more "money"

 

[Guitarist]

The way I look at this issue is if the customer wants or needs a fan and the fan needs fusing down, then its longer to install and more parts to mark up.

In one word more "money"

Totally agree. That said, I recently lost a job fitting a new fan because the "other" electrician quoted to do the job without fusing down. (yes, it was for a fan unit which stated quite clearly that it had to be).
Oh well, his backside on the line I suppose...

 

[ackbarthestar]

A 3-pole isolator with an in line fuse would do it.

If 'local' isolation and 3A cartridge fuses are required because of a weak design then some clever person could design the isolator to incorporate one.

 

[Engineer54]

Agree with the above. However, when we are being told that to comply with regs we HAVE to supply via 3 amp fuse, and an electrician even went to prison when he didn't do so (regardless of whether a 3 amp fuse would have prevented the fire), it puts us between a rock and a hard place.

Went to prison?? On what grounds, not providing a 3A fuse, i don't believe that for a second!! Not unless the law in the UK has become even more of an --- than it already was, or had a complete plonker of a solicitor/barrister!! lol!!

 

[Badfish]

Like this.

 

[Megavolt]

View attachment 19970Like this.

Who Makes that

 

[gazzamikes]

Does this break both l & sw l?

 

[telectrix]

Went to prison?? On what grounds, not providing a 3A fuse, i don't believe that for a second!! Not unless the law in the UK has become even more of an --- than it already was, or had a complete plonker of a solicitor/barrister!! lol!!

the story as i heard, was that the fan caused a fire in which someone died, and the spark was done for manslaughter. how true this is, i'm not sure.

 

[Guitarist]

Went to prison?? On what grounds, not providing a 3A fuse, i don't believe that for a second!! Not unless the law in the UK has become even more of an --- than it already was, or had a complete plonker of a solicitor/barrister!! lol!!

As I've always said, nobody cares what you do until things go wrong, then it all hits the fan (no pun intended).

 

[Guitarist]

the story as i heard, was that the fan caused a fire in which someone died, and the spark was done for manslaughter. how true this is, i'm not sure.

Same. We can all argue that a 3 amp fuse is less useful than a 6 amp MCB, but the fact was he didn't follow manufacturers instructions, and as such, the prosecution had something to use against him.

 

[Engineer54]

Same. We can all argue that a 3 amp fuse is less useful than a 6 amp MCB, but the fact was he didn't follow manufacturers instructions, and as such, the prosecution had something to use against him.

So the actual cause of the fire was the fan burning out, but because the manufacturer stated a 3A fuse should be installed in the circuit, they become exonerated for marketing a fan that sounds as if it's so weakly constructed it NEEDS local protection?? A good barrister would have gone after this manufacturer like a dog on heat. ...lol!! Expert witnesses would have been asking all sorts of revealing questions.....

 

[Guitarist]

We are coming across this more and more here in the UK my friend. Manufacturers are putting stipulations on the installation of equipment which is often quite ludicrous, just to avoid designing the stuff properly. Also, I have no doubt that many manufacturers don't have a clue about common installation practices.

 

[Engineer54]

Re: Bathroom Fan Fused at 3 Amps

We are coming across this more and more here in the UK my friend. Manufacturers are putting stipulations on the installation of equipment which is often quite ludicrous, just to avoid designing the stuff properly. Also, I have no doubt that many manufacturers don't have a clue about common installation practices.

The point is, the fuse used in UK wall accessories and plug tops are not designed to provide protection to appliances and equipment, they are their only to provide a means of protection to cables/flex's that are connected to them. We have a British standard in the form of BS7671 that confirms this fact too!! I have some problems opening some web pages, so all i have been able to find so far, is this statement in Wikipedia : Because typical British ring circuits can deliver more current than appliance flexible power cords can handle, BS 1363 plugs are required to carry a cartridge fuse,[SUP][34][/SUP] which must conform to BS 1362. The role of the plug fuse is to protect the appliance flexible cord .

 

[ackbarthestar]

Re: Bathroom Fan Fused at 3 Amps

The point is, the fuse used in UK wall accessories and plug tops are not designed to provide protection to appliances and equipment, they are their only to provide a means of protection to cables/flex's that are connected to them. We have a British standard in the form of BS7671 that confirms this fact too!! I have some problems opening some web pages, so all i have been able to find so far, is this statement in Wikipedia : Because typical British ring circuits can deliver more current than appliance flexible power cords can handle, BS 1363 plugs are required to carry a cartridge fuse,[SUP][34][/SUP] which must conform to BS 1362. The role of the plug fuse is to protect the appliance flexible cord .

The bathroom fan is usually connected to the lighting circuit (6-10A) so that when the lights are activated it also turns the extractor fan on, most have a run on time so requiring a permenant feed. That is why there is need for a 3-pole isolator for 'maintenance'.-lol - more like regular replacement, but that's something else.

Its really a complete nonsense but for some reason is the acceptable method.

Fans should be manufactured with an internal in line fuse so that regular replacement can take place......

 

[Engineer54]

I know we are talking about lighting circuits here, i only included the whole paragraph from Wikipedia to put the all important last sentence into a meaningful perspective!! lol!!


Agree, i've always stated if an appliance needs a protective device, then that protection should be provided/incorporated by the manufacturer, not an installation electrician...

 

[Guitarist]

Easier to just let the electrician deal with the problem, than actually manufacture things properly.

 

[Badfish]

Found on QVS direct.com, says 3 pole. Never used them so can't be sure.

 

[davethsparky]

I assume the fuse just protects the perm live in that? My biggest concern with that and the people who connect an FCU in a similar manner is that if the fuse blows the sw live can still remain live.
This could easily lead to diyers catching a shock because they think its all dead when its not.

 

[Guitarist]

I've seen a few of these isolators, but the only way I can see of complying with regs AND manufacturers instructions is to 3 amp protect the lighting circuit which the fan will be supplied from.

 

[davethsparky]

I've seen a few of these isolators, but the only way I can see of complying with regs AND manufacturers instructions is to 3 amp protect the lighting circuit which the fan will be supplied from.

Exactly, we could then put a nice little row of switches and FCU's above the bathroom door, because that will look so nice!

And why is it the norm to put isolators above the door? isolators for everything else in the bathroom go at socket level so why shouldn't this?

Do people still fit the isolator above the door when they fit an inline fan in the loft? Personally I put the isolator in the loft with the fan itself.