Cut through Main cable to house, Big bill Recieved Advice Greatly Appreciated

[00jona]

Please help, I have recently block paved my front garden, I had dug down and removed the soil and was just breaking up bricks that I had found with a small hand held drill/ breaker when you guessed it I got a flash as the chisel went through the brick and into the ground. I dug down to find a black mains cable, this was not mine as I had already taken the time to find mine previously. it was to next doors who's power was still on. I called out western power straight away who came out and got a team out to fix the cable that night. several months later I have been hit with a £1000 bill (ouch). I wish to dispute this on the following grounds and would like to know if I am in my rights too. firstly I was shocked that the cable was only 380mm below ground level (is this ok under a lawn?) the cable had no tape above it or any kind of conduit or sheathing around it like my cable has. when they repaired it they also dug down another 8 inches or more and buried it deeper. if the level was ok in the first place my argument is why did they do this. I do have photo's with the tape clearly showing the depth from ground level. do I have any grounds to dispute this bill? surely I could have just as easily have hit this planting a shrub, also where the cable meets the kerb it was only 300mm from the surface. thanks in advance for any advice fighting the big guys. Matt

 

[Guest111]

Not really,the onus is on you to make sure there are no cables in the area where you are working,you were very lucky not to have been killed or seriously injured by hitting the cable.

 

[00jona]

Not really,the onus is on you to make sure there are no cables in the area where you are working,you were very lucky not to have been killed or seriously injured by hitting the cable.

thanks for the reply, is there not a required depth a cable should be or any kind of warning tape or protection required though? the house was only built 1995 so not that old? thanks

 

[driverman]

Yes. complain, don't pay. Cable not deep enough on the face of it. Do you know when cable installed? Possibly when houses built. Do you receive payment from the DNO for 3rd party cable on your land? Has any landscaping taken place whereby top soil has been removed which in turn will make the cable not so deep. Good that you have photos Did the DNO take any photos on exposed damaged cable? They usually do with a white maker board to indicate the depth of the cable. Generally a 1 Phase u/g cable should be 450mm deep.
Go onto their web-site..bit of searching for their cable installation codes of practice.

 

[00jona]

Thanks for replying, the house was built in 1995 and would have been laid then, forgive my ignorance not sure what DNO means? no soil has ever been removed before I did this time, the guys who came out did take photo's and wrote on the board the depth and said he thought I should not be charged, hence the shock of being so. would there guidance be relevant now compared with when the house was built? I know they can change things? thanks again

 

[00jona]

thanks, I would assume the cable went in between 1990 -1995 when the houses were built. I am not aware off any payment for the cable running through my land, should they pay me? or could it have been ok'd by the builders before sale? the garden could not have been any higher before I removed soil, its all open plan and level with the kerb and next doors drive. they did take photo's with the white board indicating the depth as well. this is why I was so shocked to receive the bill. the technician who came out said he thought it would be unfair to be billed. do you think they have admitted it was not deep enough by digging deeper down? thanks

 

[Rockingit]

In the first instance you need to write to them stating your reasons as to why you won't be paying their bill as you dispute it. It's then up to them to decide whether or not they would stand a chance of winning against that in small claims. My guess is that they won't even bother.

 

[Engineer54]

I would always dispute any bill issued by a DNO, they almost expect it!!

So how many months are you calling several?? Were you informed in writing that the costs of repairing this cable would be to your account at the time of repair??

A reasonable depth of unprotected DNO cable according to their own specification data is 450mm, but that cable route should still of been provided with both protective cable tiles and warning tape along it's entire route!! By the sound of it, this cable complied with none of the above, so at the very least you should be looking for a substantial reduction in their demand, and at best, have the demand retracted due to their cable laying procedure failures....

 

[00jona]

it happened on the 13/8/14 and I received the bill Friday last week. they didn't say I would have the pay or not at the time but it must be repaired. if you receive this could you respond back as I have posted back on all the comments but don't seem to be able to see them or know that I have done so any way. thanks again.

 

[Knobhead]

Please help, I have recently block paved my front garden, I had dug down and removed the soil and was just breaking up bricks that I had found with a small hand held drill/ breaker when you guessed it I got a flash as the chisel went through the brick and into the ground. I dug down to find a black mains cable, this was not mine as I had already taken the time to find mine previously. it was to next doors who's power was still on. I called out western power straight away who came out and got a team out to fix the cable that night. several months later I have been hit with a £1000 bill (ouch). I wish to dispute this on the following grounds and would like to know if I am in my rights too. firstly I was shocked that the cable was only 380mm below ground level (is this ok under a lawn?) the cable had no tape above it or any kind of conduit or sheathing around it like my cable has. when they repaired it they also dug down another 8 inches or more and buried it deeper. if the level was ok in the first place my argument is why did they do this. I do have photo's with the tape clearly showing the depth from ground level. do I have any grounds to dispute this bill? surely I could have just as easily have hit this planting a shrub, also where the cable meets the kerb it was only 300mm from the surface. thanks in advance for any advice fighting the big guys. Matt

The bricks wouldn’t just happen to have an apex along the top and the words “electric cable” moulded in them would they?

What area of Nottingham are you in?

 

[UNG]

Would agree with Phil I know of plenty of estates close to where I live where the cables are buried at spade depth (250 - 300mm deep ) and installed long before any standard depth was probably set as Tony has said the bricks were probably the protection as back in the day the yellow danger tape was a future development. Although it is next doors cable crossing your land you will find that other services to your property may cross his.


Driverman I have only ever heard of a DNO making wayleave payments for overhead supplies where the DNO need access for the maintenance of poles and pole mounted equipment. If wayleaves and payment were needed for underground services then you could see the costs to the electric, gas, water and drainage companies increasing and the nightmare of apportioning payouts and the mountain of legal paperwork

 

[00jona]

No it's a newish estate 1995 ish. It's all back fill old pig sty breeze blocks etc.

 

[Knobhead]

They still have to obtain wayleaves & easements for crossing land belonging to a third party. If the house was a part of a block of houses being built then the developer wouldn’t block the rights.

 

[00jona]

Sorry forgot I'm in Rainworth. Western power. Thanks

 

[UNG]

They still have to obtain wayleaves & easements for crossing land belonging to a third party. If the house was a part of a block of houses being built then the developer wouldn’t block the rights.

I agree but there would normally be no annual payment made for them as Driverman suggests

 

[Knobhead]

That depends on the original agreement in place. It’s 35 years since I got mixed up in them, but I can’t imagine they’ve changed much.

 

[Geordie Spark]

I would always dispute any bill issued by a DNO, they almost expect it!!

So how many months are you calling several?? Were you informed in writing that the costs of repairing this cable would be to your account at the time of repair??

A reasonable depth of unprotected DNO cable according to their own specification data is 450mm, but that cable route should still have been provided with both protective cable tiles and warning tape along it's entire route!! By the sound of it, this cable complied with none of the above, so at the very least you should be looking for a substantial reduction in their demand, and at best, have the demand retracted due to their cable laying procedure failures....

It's just a little thought, but maybe those "bricks" our OP was breaking up were in fact "protective cable tiles" ???

One man's brick is another man's tile.........

 

[Knobhead]

^^^^ Thats what I said ^^^^

 

[Geordie Spark]

^^^^ Thats what I said ^^^^

Sorry marra ...... I posted without reading the full thread. Please divvent hirras man! :dunce2:

(but it's nice to know my theory matches that of the master. I must have learned something" )

 

[driverman]

Would agree with Phil I know of plenty of estates close to where I live where the cables are buried at spade depth (250 - 300mm deep ) and installed long before any standard depth was probably set as Tony has said the bricks were probably the protection as back in the day the yellow danger tape was a future development. Although it is next doors cable crossing your land you will find that other services to your property may cross his.


Driverman I have only ever heard of a DNO making wayleave payments for overhead supplies where the DNO need access for the maintenance of poles and pole mounted equipment. If wayleaves and payment were needed for underground services then you could see the costs to the electric, gas, water and drainage companies increasing and the nightmare of apportioning payouts and the mountain of legal paperwork

Been the case for many years re wayleave payment for any DNO equipment that serves 3rd party. Historically though years ago non were applied for.If said cable could be removed from OP's land without effecting him, then a wayleaves is required. The OP has the right with no wayleave in place to inform the DNO notice to quit. However water pipes don't need to have wayleaves as water laid years ago and deemed to be a necessity for householders

 

[7029 dave]

Very common in days of old, for cables to be snaking all around off boundaries, to other near by dwellings.

 

[amckay]

Supply them with photos and other evidence suggesting they broke their own policy/rules.
Explain that you were not quoted for work and not told that it was chargeable.
No contract therefore no liability end of story.

 

[00jona]

It's just a little thought, but maybe those "bricks" our OP was breaking up were in fact "protective cable tiles" ???

One man's brick is another man's tile.........

no mate my front garden is all back fill, breeze blocks, bricks, old soakaway etc breaking up from allover for hardcor. deffo not protective tiles. wish I could put the photo on would make it clearer.
hanks

 

[mechelec]

You would have had to sign a wayleave for the cable if you are the property owner. They are non transferable to subsequent owners and a new one has to be drawn up each time there is a change in land ownership. They can be terminated with 12 months notice. An easement is a different matter. They are non terminable and if you want the cable moving you would have to pay.
You can easily get the claim thrown out. All you need to do is show evidence that up to date utility plans were on site, a CAT was used and the cables were located by hand digging to prove their location.
You did follow safe digging practices didn't you ????

 

[Knobhead]

wish I could put the photo on would make it clearer.

You can if you use photobucket and embed the link in your post. The added bonus is it shows full size in your post.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Hey Tony, did you see the photos of that damaged cable in the other thread?

 

[PEG]

Your house was built after the instigation of widely used covenants and conditions. When we were throwing up these things,"Executive or Starter",in every town. They "Exempted" previous,longstanding rights,such as wayleave and right of access,by requiring the new,and therefore subsequent owners,to "agree" to terms and conditions. These,if you can spare the time to read, can cover EVERYTHING. I have read such conditions as,no laundry outside,no trailers,no tents,no dishes,no excavation exceeding 300mm away from boundary,shared access/storage/services/drainage etc etc. It is worth checking this,as the DNO may have knowledge of this on your estate,and if so,you will be liable. As to depth of services,including gas,they generally are what they are,and any representative from the utilities,i have ever dealt with has always said " Yeah mate,they should really be deeper than that..." :icon12:

 

[Engineer54]

The long and short of it, is that it is reasonably accepted that a homeowner has the right to use a garden spade and/or fork to tend his garden. 300mm is around the depth of a typical spade or fork. The fact that the electrical company failed to install this cable to a suitable depth without protection or a visual warning tape gives the OP reasonable grounds to dispute any costs incurred to repair said cable.

If anything the burial depth of LV service cables buried within the boundaries of residential properties should be more like 600mm similar to that recommended by the reg's etc.... And they would still need tile cable protection and a visual warning tape throughout the cables routeing!!

 

[driverman]

Just a thought re burying mains cable. The cable may of been installed by the use of a "mole machine" which is common practice by DNO companies. Therefore no markings, tape, brick tiles etc. I think you will find that a great deal of DNO u/g cables are not marked / identified even if hand dug. Don't forget the DNO's do not come up BS7671 regs.

 

[driverman]

The long and short of it, is that it is reasonably accepted that a homeowner has the right to use a garden spade and/or fork to tend his garden. 300mm is around the depth of a typical spade or fork. The fact that the electrical company failed to install this cable to a suitable depth without protection or a visual warning tape gives the OP reasonable grounds to dispute any costs incurred to repair said cable.

If anything the burial depth of LV service cables buried within the boundaries of residential properties should be more like 600mm similar to that recommended by the reg's etc.... And they would still need tile cable protection and a visual warning tape throughout the cables routeing!!

DNO at one time was.. 1 phase u/g cable 450mm to top of ducting. 3 Phase cable 600mm to top of ducting. U/G cables in any back gardens which is now frowned upon 1m deep.

 

[Engineer54]

DNO at one time was.. 1 phase u/g cable 450mm to top of ducting. 3 Phase cable 600mm to top of ducting. U/G cables in any back gardens which is now frowned upon 1m deep.

Many of the DNO cables laid in residential areas were installed 30/ 40/ 50 years ago long before the now DNO's came to pass. and as you say most were set deeper than the 450mm that is bandied about on the DNO websites. Mole cable and pipe laying is being increasingly used, but as far as i'm aware also come with restrictions and their own set of rules governing their use...

 

[PEG]

When dealing with the DNO/Utilities,regarding the "incorrect" positioning of cables/pipes,you will be very fortunate to get an admission of liability,on any install older than a few years,unless it is grossly foolish. On older properties,the drive may have been re-instated half a dozen times,which gives them room for discussion,especially when the installers grand children are in nursing homes. I have dealt with circumstances ranging from earth rods piercing drains,PILC cables "looping" underground features,gas companies moleing through drains,and one where for 5 meters,a PILC cable had been poked through an existing section of early 1900's clay land drain.The DNO engineer who visited,on that last one,commented "Those old boys sure were ingenious!" :conehead:

 

[Engineer54]

When dealing with the DNO/Utilities,regarding the "incorrect" positioning of cables/pipes,you will be very fortunate to get an admission of liability,on any install older than a few years,unless it is grossly foolish. On older properties,the drive may have been re-instated half a dozen times,which gives them room for discussion,especially when the installers grand children are in nursing homes. I have dealt with circumstances ranging from earth rods piercing drains,PILC cables "looping" underground features,gas companies moleing through drains,and one where for 5 meters,a PILC cable had been poked through an existing section of early 1900's clay land drain.The DNO engineer who visited,on that last one,commented "Those old boys sure were ingenious!" :conehead:

Maybe, but then they won't be coming after you for a cables repair either!! lol!!

 

[Barry White]

Housold insurance? covers accidental damage to drains and cables on some polecys worth a check ? if the DNO dont see it your way

 

[00jona]

Housold insurance? covers accidental damage to drains and cables on some polecys worth a check ? if the DNO dont see it your way

Thanks

 

[driverman]

Looks several comments that I read earlier have disappeared?

all back now lol

 

[driverman]

any news, update?

 

[sparkymalarky]

Just read through this thread myself, very interested to see how this turns out!

 

[00jona]

Just read through this thread myself, very interested to see how this turns out!

Only sent letter today. Will update when they respond. Cheers

 

[00jona]

Only sent letter today. Will update when they respond. Cheers

They have agreed to drop the charges if I sign a wayleave for the cable. based on what you will actually get per annum on this and it would only be back dated I have snapped their hand off and £1000 of my mind. thanks again to all for the cracking advice.

 

[driverman]

They have agreed to drop the charges if I sign a wayleave for the cable. based on what you will actually get per annum on this and it would only be back dated I have snapped their hand off and £1000 of my mind. thanks again to all for the cracking advice.

Great news.I was 90% certain it would go that way, but you never know! The wayleave payment will not make you rich, it's basically just a gentleman's agreement between you and the DNO. I think the DNO will back date the wayleave for a max of 7 years. Every little bit helps as they say.
Good news, just be careful where you dig next time! lol

 

[PEG]

They have agreed to drop the charges if I sign a wayleave for the cable. based on what you will actually get per annum on this and it would only be back dated I have snapped their hand off and £1000 of my mind. thanks again to all for the cracking advice.

I may have missed something,but for them to ASK for wayleave,and you to give it,they did not have it,when you damaged the cable,so they would struggle to enforce any charges for damage.

 

[driverman]

I may have missed something,but for them to ASK for wayleave,and you to give it,they did not have it,when you damaged the cable,so they would struggle to enforce any charges for damage.

I think it worked like this..drop charges or get your cable off my land. Cheaper for DNO to drop charges. Plus cable was not deep enough by DNO's standards. DNO were on a sticky wicket.

 

[Prat P]

A good resolution for all concerned as only lawyers would have benefited from you not being able to agree an amicable solution..having said that,the most important lesson is we all need to be aware of mains installed not deep enough.

 

[PEG]

I think it worked like this..drop charges or get your cable off my land. Cheaper for DNO to drop charges. Plus cable was not deep enough by DNO's standards. DNO were on a sticky wicket.

But,that is accepting they had the provision to press those charges,which quite obviously, they did not. The only reason i'm pedantically harping on about this,is due to the number of times,i have dealt with entities,such as utilities,where they say "If you do X,we won't do Y", where Y,is not an option for them anyway. I will bore you with an example. A friend of mine,had a large feed cable,run across the edge of a piece of land he owned. It went in,800mm deep,in 6 hours,turf back,job done. The ensuing paperwork,stretched out the possible reasons over 2 years. The development (retirement home) was now completed and functioning,and had become the extra excuse for not removing the cable. He could not touch it himself,for various,obvious reasons,BUT,did secure paperwork,requiring stringent terms for allowing further access to the cable,for maintenance etc. I will not go into details,but the cable got "damaged",and the turn-out and subsequent document waving,resulted in the following; One emergency supply,One newly installed supply through adjacent,LA owned land,One original supply,tagged and exposed at each end,ready to be removed. Which i assisted in the doing of...On the day,it looked and sounded like someone was going to Shawshank,in the end,everyone concerned,just had drawers full of tetchy letters...:conehead:

 

[Geordie Spark]

But,that is accepting they had the provision to press those charges,which quite obviously, they did not. The only reason i'm pedantically harping on about this,is due to the number of times,i have dealt with entities,such as utilities,where they say "If you do X,we won't do Y", where Y,is not an option for them anyway. I will bore you with an example. A friend of mine,had a large feed cable,run across the edge of a piece of land he owned. It went in,800mm deep,in 6 hours,turf back,job done. The ensuing paperwork,stretched out the possible reasons over 2 years. The development (retirement home) was now completed and functioning,and had become the extra excuse for not removing the cable. He could not touch it himself,for various,obvious reasons,BUT,did secure paperwork,requiring stringent terms for allowing further access to the cable,for maintenance etc. I will not go into details,but the cable got "damaged",and the turn-out and subsequent document waving,resulted in the following; One emergency supply,One newly installed supply through adjacent,LA owned land,One original supply,tagged and exposed at each end,ready to be removed. Which i assisted in the doing of...On the day,it looked and sounded like someone was going to Shawshank,in the end,everyone concerned,just had drawers full of tetchy letters...:conehead:

Preferable to having your drawers full of tetchy ants or black widow spiders.

 

[Slowhand]

Are they going to come and bury the cable at a decent depth and cover it with tiles or warning tape?

 

[driverman]

Are they going to come and bury the cable at a decent depth and cover it with tiles or warning tape?

I think not.

 

[00jona]

Are they going to come and bury the cable at a decent depth and cover it with tiles or warning tape?

yes it was buried deeper at the time of repair, sand around it and tape covering it at two different layers above it.

 

[sparksburnout]

I cant be bothered reading any further, as there seems to be some support for the DNO's here. Eng 54 has it bang on, these cables should be "buried to a depth that precludes disturbance from reasonable activities", for example digging a cartload of horse ****e into your rose-beds. Why should we have to work to proper standards when DNO's can get away with shoving unprotected cables across peoples gardens at stupid depths?????