EIC and EICR issues

[Googers]

Hi folks, first time poster and soon-to-be landlord's assistant (letting my partner's property out now that she's moved in). We've just had a new consumer unit installed and an EIC produced for the works as required, and the electrician told us he checked every socket and circuit as part of his works - even replaced two faulty sockets during his checks.

Given that he's tested everything (wording from our invoice below states as such) we are wondering if the EIC can be used in place of an EICR. As it's likened to an MOT, you wouldn't MOT a new car, but then a new CU and circuit checks is more of an engine replacement than a new car, yadda yadda...

Invoice states:
1 NEW FUSE BOARD . Replace old fuse board . Supply and fit new 10-way RCBO fuse board with SPD Surge protection . Upgrade meter tails to 25mm . Upgrade main earth to 16mm . Upgrade gas earth bonding to 10mm . Upgrade water earth bonding to 10mm if the existing 6mm is not connected . Test all circuits . Issue Electrical Certificate*

*t's and c's

Anyway, we are supposed to have tenants moving in tomorrow but as we only have the EIC and not the EICR, the agent isn't budging. Has anyone got any experience with using an EIC and supporting info to show that all areas have been checked, or are we going to have to try and arrange an additional check that will delay the tenancy?

Cheers!

 

[ipf]

You shouldn't have the slightest problem if a full test and inspection on the existing installation has been carried out. An installation certificate more than covers an EICR. All components of an EICR should have been taken into account as part of the EIC, if it has been carried out to the full, as you state and, if this is the case, the section stating when the next inspection is required gives you your answer.
The agent is what he is.....a house salesman....and is ignorant to the facts.

 

[Risteard]

You shouldn't have the slightest problem if a full test and inspection on the existing installation has been carried out. An installation certificate more than covers an EICR. All components of an EICR should have been taken into account as part of the EIC, if it has been carried out to the full, as you state and, if this is the case, the section stating when the next inspection is required gives you your answer.
The agent is what he is.....a house salesman....and is ignorant to the facts.

I'm sorry but that isn't correct. The certificate only certifies the work carried out, i.e. replacement of the distribution board. Other than for a new installation (including full rewire) it cannot substitute an Electrical Installation Condition Report and rightly so.

 

[cliffed]

You shouldn't have the slightest problem if a full test and inspection on the existing installation has been carried out. An installation certificate more than covers an EICR. All components of an EICR should have been taken into account as part of the EIC, if it has been carried out to the full, as you state and, if this is the case, the section stating when the next inspection is required gives you your answer.
The agent is what he is.....a house salesman....and is ignorant to the facts.

I'm sorry but that isn't correct. The certificate only certifies the work carried out, i.e. replacement of the distribution board. Other than for a new installation (including full rewire) it cannot substitute an Electrical Installation Condition Report and rightly so.

He does state the premises have been fully tested,so a EIC would be issued I think,he’s also got the EICR too.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Wouldn’t it be easier and cheaper to ask the electrician who changed the CU to do an EICR?

 

[cliffed]

Wouldn’t it be easier and cheaper to ask the electrician who changed the CU to do an EICR?

if you change a DB then the relevant tests have to be made,& a. EIC issued I do believe.

 

[Taylortwocities]

if you change a DB then the relevant tests have to be made,& a. EIC issued I do believe.

The OP has an EIC for the CU change.
What I (tried to) suggest is to have the electrician who changed the CU carry out an EICR. He can almost do this from his armchair, having tested and inspected the installation already.

 

[SJD]

An EIC does not cover everything that is required for an EICR, but the overlap is so great that there is not too much more work to be able to issue an EICR. For example, inspecting the connections to a sample of switches and sockets.

Doing a lot of new consumer units and EICRs for a letting agent, I typically allow an extra hour for the extra work (that hour doesn't include any remedials), and then issue both the EIC and the EICR at the same time. This is far more cost effective (for the customer) compared to doing them separately.

 

[Googers]

Thanks all, it sounds like I'll need the electrician to provide a further certificate, which may prove difficult given that when I asked about an EICR I was told (by the electrician) that the EIC is better. Looks like the tenants aren't moving in tomorrow ?

 

[Googers]

The OP has an EIC for the CU change.
What I (tried to) suggest is to have the electrician who changed the CU carry out an EICR. He can almost do this from his armchair, having tested and inspected the installation already.

Aye that's what we had hoped, but the electrician was very defensive and keen to push blame on the letting agents for not understanding what an EIC is rather than offering to follow up with an EICR. I'll give him a call today and ask if he's willing to help out but after the phone call I had last night I doubt it. Shame because the rest of his work was stellar!

 

[SJD]

Aye that's what we had hoped, but the electrician was very defensive and keen to push blame on the letting agents for not understanding what an EIC is rather than offering to follow up with an EICR. I'll give him a call today and ask if he's willing to help out but after the phone call I had last night I doubt it. Shame because the rest of his work was stellar!

It sound to me that this electrician doesn't really understand the different purposes of the two documents, and doesn't understand either the law relating to rented property.

Or perhaps just doesn't like doing EICRs.

 

[Googers]

It sound to me that this electrician doesn't really understand the different purposes of the two documents, and doesn't understand either the law relating to rented property.

Or perhaps just doesn't like doing EICRs.

He's been working for some 20 odd years so I suspect it's a matter of the legalities having only recently changed and the really crap Government guidance being a bit vague. Hey ho! I've asked him for some further help but we'll see what happens.

Either way, turns out the Gas Safe certificate won't be available until Monday anyway so now I need to find out what that's going to cost me in terms of breaching the moving-in date on the contract. *sigh*

 

[westward10]

If I had done the work recently I would happily provide an EICR free of charge. If the place has been uninhabited since the works carried out it probably wouldn't need a site visit to visually check for any sign of damage. The worst he should demand is an admin fee.

 

[dodger421]

Maybe I’m being stupid, but the government guidance in section 6 does seem to make clear an EIC is acceptable?

Now yes, it does give two specific examples of newly built or completely rewired, but surely if the EIC includes the entire installation in its schedules of inspection and test then it meets the criteria of Section 6 and a CU change most certainly does involve inspection and test of the entire installation.

Tin Hat on.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

“What about new build properties or new electrical installations?​

If a property is newly built or has been completely rewired, it should have an Electrical Installation Certificate known as an EIC.

Landlords can provide a copy of the EIC to tenants and, if requested, the local authority. The landlord will then not be required to carry out further checks or provide a report for 5 years after the EIC has been issued, as long as they have complied with their duty or duties under the Regulations”

 

[Ian1981]

The EIC in this case relates to the CU change, nothing more so it cannot replace an EICR which covers the fixed installation unless otherwise stated on the extent of the installation covered by this report.
A new build should have had initial verification before being put into service so should be compliant to when it was installed, so that is entirely different.

 

[Dartlec]

Most EICs for DB changes would not meet the requirements for the landlord regulations.

A rewire or new build EIC is the best of all worlds of course, since it should confirm that cables are correctly routed within zones, properly erected, supported, etc. That is almost always a limitation on a consumer unit change EIC, but also on most if not all EICRs too for practical reasons.

So there is probably an argument that a very thorough EIC which clearly states that it inspected 100% of the installation would be no less safe than an EICR and would comply with the spirit of the legislation regarding testing the installation.

However, the letting agent can't be expected to make that judgement so will fall back on the Government guidance, which states that since it hasn't been rewired or newly built, that an EICR is required.

With most certificate software, it takes minutes to convert one to the other, since the schedule of inspections is identical (at least in my software). The only difference is that the number of LIMS may well be higher on a board change compared to an EICR.

So unfortunately the simplest answer in this case is going to be to get an EICR. The electrician should understand the situation and be willing to do one, either free or for very little additional cost.

If you show him the guidance already noted above, then he may be prepared to change his mind. If not, you can ask him to produce something in writing which clarifies why he believes his certificate complies with the law - that may at least make him think about his views.

Failing that, you may be able to get one done cheaper than normal given than much of the testing and documentation work has been done, but then you are asking another inspector to rely on the word of the previous one, which can be troublesome.

 

[loz2754]

Maybe I’m being stupid, but the government guidance in section 6 does seem to make clear an EIC is acceptable?

Now yes, it does give two specific examples of newly built or completely rewired, but surely if the EIC includes the entire installation in its schedules of inspection and test then it meets the criteria of Section 6 and a CU change most certainly does involve inspection and test of the entire installation.

Tin Hat on.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

“What about new build properties or new electrical installations?​

If a property is newly built or has been completely rewired, it should have an Electrical Installation Certificate known as an EIC.

Landlords can provide a copy of the EIC to tenants and, if requested, the local authority. The landlord will then not be required to carry out further checks or provide a report for 5 years after the EIC has been issued, as long as they have complied with their duty or duties under the Regulations”

Not really. The inspection and test schedules are more extensive for an EICR than for an EIC. That's because, as has been stated already, an EIC is only to certify work that is detailed on the front page. An EICR covers the whole installation.
So unless the EIC is for a rewire or new build, it is not an acceptable substitute for an EICR.

 

[Burtones]

In this case, the schedule of test results will apply to the full installation as it has had a board change. It's the schedule of inspections that is the problem as that will only apply to the work carried out and not the full installation hence the eicr still being required.

Like others have said though, with the work and testing the electrician has already completed, with a few sensible limitations, they probably have what they need to issue an eicr from home.

 

[dodger421]

Just to clarify you’re all going to issue an EIC for a board change even if the installation doesn’t comply with BS7671 but your work at the board does?

I’m also just going to throw in Electrical Safety Firsts view of this as their best practice guides are oft quoted here and generally are pretty good. Section 4 Certification Page 8 of their Landlords Guide; emphasis mine


“The EIC will indicate whether the electrical work that has been carried out is ‘new’, an ‘addition’ or an ‘alteration’. The term ‘new’ applies where the whole installation has been installed as new, if a complete rewire has been carried out, or where a consumer unit (fusebox) has been replaced.”

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.o...ndlords-guide-england-and-wales-june-2020.pdf

 

[Dartlec]

Just to clarify you’re all going to issue an EIC for a board change even if the installation doesn’t comply with BS7671 but your work at the board does?

If the board install complies, then you can issue an EIC for your work (or explain the departures from 7671 if you believe you are reasonable to do so). It's just a case of ensuring that the extent of installation box is clearly defined what you did and didn't do to avoid issues in the future.

Most issues where the an installation doesn't comply with 7671 to an extent that affects safety would be resolved by a correctly done board change (RCD protection, correctly chosen MCBs, etc.)

Were there any C1 conditions, then I'd not re-energise them unless they were resolved, but I'd make sure the client knew that before I started.

There are some other 'critical' parts, such as main bonding, for example, that would also normally be upgraded or verified before a board was changed.

Anything else, like non IP rated lights in Zone 2 might not be, but having them on an RCD would clearly add safety in any case.

It will usually not be possible to confirm cable routes for a board change, but then most EICRs don't either.

The mantra I work to mostly is to leave things safer than when I arrived.

Having said that, if a new board is being replaced urgently (for example because of a melted terminal), then there might well be non compliances that were not corrected, but the customer should be made aware of them.

Where time permits, I usually do an EICR in effect (or the testing for one at least) before I do a board change anyway, because it helps me identify potential causes for unwanted RCD tripping.

So tl;dr: It might be possible for an EIC for a board change to be correctly issued, but there still to be C2s at the property, C1s are probably much less likely.