Five fold increase in fusebox fires

[Engineer54]

Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....

 

[shanky887614]

Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....

im not in favor of outright banning electrical goods BUT.

I would like to see what they have done in say Australia where there is a mininum price for sale to joe public.

I wouldnt mind if anyone with a level 3 electrical qualification/equivalent or higher could get them at a lower rate, this would allow both retired electricians and mates to buy the items who havent gotten an nvq.

one of the best electrical contractors I have ever worked with is only qualified as a mate but more knowledgeable than the electricians they work with

 

[Engineer54]

What the hell has holding an NVQ or not, got to do with anything?? But it just goes to show how unworkable such a system would be!! Whatever restrictive sale of electrical goods that went into operation would diminish sales and therefore prices WILL increase. In any/every case where a restrictive sales policy is in place, prices increase and work decreases, ....it's a fact of life!!

The fact is, you will NEVER stop the DIY Daves of this world, no matter what restrictions or legislations are in place, bit like nature really, ....they will always find a way!! lol!!

 

[shanky887614]

What the hell has holding an NVQ or not, got to do with anything?? But it just goes to show how unworkable such a system would be!! Whatever restrictive sale of electrical goods that went into operation would diminish sales and therefore prices WILL increase. In any/every case where a restrictive sales policy is in place, prices increase and work decreases, ....it's a fact of life!!

The fact is, you will NEVER stop the DIY Daves of this world, no matter what restrictions or legislations are in place, bit like nature really, ....they will always find a way!! lol!!

thats the point of it being more expensive for people not in the trade as it means they are less likely to do it themselfs

 

[Gavin A]

A new regulation coming into force in January will make it mandatory for all fuse boards to be made from fireproof material or be in a special fireproof box.

erm anyone know anything about this?

presumably they mean all new 'fuse boards', not all fuse boards?

 

[Engineer54]

thats the point of it being more expensive for people not in the trade as it means they are less likely to do it themselfs

Now that is just Naive!!

 

[Engineer54]

erm anyone know anything about this?

presumably they mean all new 'fuse boards', not all fuse boards?

They are supposed to be already ''Fire Proof'', most if not all, will just melt down to a molten blob on the floor!! lol!!

 

[Knobhead]

This sounds like the scare stories about the old Wylex BS3036 boards. Can’t say I’ve ever heard of the wooden pattress spontaneously combusting. In fact I chucked one on the open fire, took hours to burn.

As for DIY Dave, America seems to have addressed the problem, why can’t the UK?

 

[D Skelton]

Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....

You raise some interesting points. I think the idea of banning the sale of electrical equipment to Joe Public is a discussion we do need to have.

I don't particularly agree with you on the point about material prices skyrocketing. Having spoken with a few managers of wholesalers, most of whom wouldn't be phased at all if they were no longer allowed to sell to Joe Public (TLC aside!). The manager of my local YESSS branch told me quite recently that 95% of their business is with the trade, so the main price increases would be your sundries really as it would be the wholesale distribution prices that would be affected. Sockets, switches, junction boxes, fancy lighting, 1mm T+E and 2.5mm T+E, and even then, they wouldn't be horrendous.

I'm totally with you on the nanny state side of things, my worry however is that in your own words 'sorting out' the electrical industry will inevitably have the side effect of pushing tens of thousands of unqualified and untrained 'electricians' out of business because let's face it, not many will be willing to use a four year grace period to get themselves a core qualification and proof of experience under supervision. The small amount of 'good' 5WWs will do the right thing I'm sure and get trained up (and by 'good' I mean concious about doing the right thing). A large number of bad ones however I expect would opt to fly under the radar rather than joining the club above the raised bar, thus becoming Joe Public themselves!

How would you prevent the thousands of 5WWs who don't want to upskill but at the same time still want to operate from doing so?

If there are other options I'm all ears, this is one area where my ideas are not especially set in stone so am open to suggestion, but the way I see it at the moment, if you increase the level of qualification and experience required to become an electrician, thousands simply won't be capable, so will just continue regardless?

The only other option I can think of is heavy penalties for those who operate without a licence and mass public awareness campaigns of the importance of only using licenced electricians, but then we're back to this 'nanny state' business are we not??

 

[Guest111]

As I see it we don't want a nanny state,there's too much of that going on already,take the issue with cyclists for example,I,m sick to death of having it rammed down my throat that I should watch out for them,yet they leap out at junctions,ignore red lights,ride on pavements when it suits them and basically flout the law,yet it seems to be the motorist that has to bear all the responsibility for their actions.Same with electrics,people always have and always will try and do it themselves,if we are going to stop it then how far do we go?we bad sheds or anywhere else selling the gear,then we close all electrical forums just on the off chance that one or two get on them and get advice that they misinterpret and cause harm to themselves and their families.lets be honest think of things like the ccc of cables,look anywhere and you can find them listed,so joe public looks on line and finds that cable X will carry Y number of amps so he's off and running,no mention of volt drop,I remember in college as an apprentice being told that if the run was short enough you could wire an immersion in 1mm,now we know about volt drop etc but JP doesn't If we went to ban things to JP then we'd be opening a pandoras box.They'll always get stuff from somewhere,possibly car boot sales,and then we'd just have a huge black market in electrical equipment,look at beer during prohibition,or the massive illegal drugs trade.Far better for insurance companies to ask for proof that work was carried out by a qualified electrician,I know not everybody has home insurance( I don't) but like the cyclists JP should take responsibility for their own actions.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Banning stuff is nonsense. Where do you stop? Nanny State-ism!!!
It's all about 'Personal Responsibility' to me.
If someone wants to put their life, and others around them, at risk, that's their business and conscience to wrestle with.
Who am I to tell anyone what they can and cannot do?
Yeah...NOBODY!

 

[D Skelton]

I'm totally with people on the whole 'nanny state' business. I hate nanny states as much as anyone. I just can't see the point in trying to upskill the industry if it's going to be business as usual for every Electrical Trainee out there anyway?

 

[Guest111]

Banning stuff is nonsense. Where do you stop? Nanny State-ism!!!
It's all about 'Personal Responsibility' to me.
If someone wants to put their life, and others around them, at risk, that's their business and conscience to wrestle with.
Who am I to tell anyone what they can and cannot do?
Yeah...NOBODY!

And thereby hangs the nub of the problem,in these days of H&S and nanny state people have lost the capability to think for themselves,Billy falls out of a tree and breaks his arm,now it's not Billy's fault oh no,it's either the fault of the tree owner for planting it or someone else's fault for not telling Billy not to climb the tree.

 

[not clever]

Erwin skelton; fair play you were invited to the parliamentary thing & went along, shame you were not so vocal on the day mate.

 

[not clever]

DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.

But there surely has to be an increase due to the use of forums, you only have to look across different boards to see the questions relating to cu swaps.

 

[D Skelton]

Didn't really get the chance fella. We were asked not to repeat each other, Mr Morris did most of the talking and I agreed with most of it. I gave a brief account of my thoughts on the current situation, mostly in line with what had already been said. Mr Pollock gave the most damning evidence having been a Electrical Trainee himself prior to getting fully qualified, evidence I could not give. What exactly could I have added other than the answers to the questions that were directed at me? They asked me about enforcement so I answered, I wasn't going to go off on one about 5WWs at that point as that would not have addressed the question asked. They asked me about solutions and I answered. We only had an hour and most of that was taken up by Mr Morris talking about the schemes dirty behaviour and Mr Judson talking about nonsense.

I didn't see you there???

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Certain electrical goods mate.

The more I've thought about this over time the more I've started to come round to the idea that it would be a bad idea to ban the sale of all electrical equipment to the general public. Lights, switches, sockets etc.. I was thinking that it's fair to say that a competent DIYer is well within his rights to change a socket or switch. Well, that was until the other day. The other day I was carrying out a periodic inspection in a property where the lighting circuits had no cpc yet just weeks ago the owner had gone round and changed every socket, light and switch for metal ones. Every light switch and light fitting had to be changed back to plastic. He was completely oblivious to the danger posed when he carried out the work.

And you say banning is a bad idea?!

I fail to see how this will come back to bite the spark in the backside??

Ok, I understand the need for the general public to be able to get hold of plug tops, fuse wire, cable clips and bits and bobs, but distribution boards and cable?? No.

In my opinion, the best solution is a mandatory licence, restricted only to those with a core qual, an NVQ3 (or equivalent) and an AM2, and the sale of electrical equipment restricted only to those with the aforementioned licence. The holder of the licence would be obligated to keep up to date with current regs and maybe sit an AM2 style assessment with an additional few written papers every five years or something.

The one bad thing with this style system I can see would be retired sparks being unable to carry out work in their own homes. I suppose the whole idea however would be about doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people though. A shame a few thousand retired sparks can't carry out work on their own homes without keeping up with the licence requirements, but at the same time many hundreds of thousands of people are prevented from potentially killing themselves and their families??

Whatever happens and whatever your current view, one thing is for sure, and that is that a serious debate involving a diverse range of people from across the industry needs to happen. From the big companies to the small, from the H&SE to the general public, from the writers of the regs to the followers of them, from the fire fighters picking up the pieces of dodgy DIY work to the spark putting right the wrongs of the 5WWs. We as an industry, as a collective of people with varying experiences and skills, we need to sit down in a massive room and decide as a gorup what is best for the public, not the private money grabbing scam companies profiting enormously from the misery of others!!!

Well he wasn't competent then was he?

 

[D Skelton]

My point exactly WP. My dad could change a socket or switch just fine, he's more than able to provide a sound termination and fold the cables back neatly. Would he know not to fit a metal switch if there was no earth present? I doubt it. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, no DIYer will ever be truly competent in the fullest sense of the word.

 

[R G]

Does anyone remember the Electium recall , I went round all my jobs and changed loads of MCBs . I bet theres still loads out there that haven't been changed ..

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Let's not forget the shyte quality of the terminal screws and the insufficient thread in the bus bars either.

together with the poor termination practice in regards to stranded conductors...

 

[D Skelton]

Erwin skelton; fair play you were invited to the parliamentary thing & went along, shame you were not so vocal on the day mate.

Just occurred to me... You really have some kind of bee in your bonnet about me not being as vocal as the other four at the select committee hearing don't you? You a mate of Steptoe?

What's your real issue with me fella? You fancy airing it here?

 

[jaypp]

My point exactly WP. My dad could change a socket or switch just fine, he's more than able to provide a sound termination and fold the cables back neatly. Would he know not to fit a metal switch if there was no earth present? I doubt it. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, no DIYer will ever be truly competent in the fullest sense of the word.

Trouble is, no-one reads instructions fully! :book:

 

[D Skelton]

Trouble is, no-one reads instructions fully! :book:

Trouble is, people in general are stoopid!

 

[Engineer54]

Ah, my mate Steptoe, from another place, how's he doing these days?? lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

Ah, my mate Steptoe, from another place, how's he doing these days?? lol!!

No comment

 

[Silly Sausage]

erm anyone know anything about this?

presumably they mean all new 'fuse boards', not all fuse boards?

Regulation 421.1.200 has been introduced and will require switchgear assemblies, including consumer units, to have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible, or not readily combustible, material, or to be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure that is constructed of non-combustible, or not readily combustible, material.

This new Regulation is being introduced to help to protect against fire that can result from the overheating of connections within consumer units. Overheating can arise from loose connections and connections that have not been made correctly, for example, the connection of a cable over the insulation.

 

[Engineer54]

Seeing as they are already made from non combustible material, perhaps they should now concentrate on a plastic that doesn't melt down to a blob on the floor!! lol!!

 

[snowhead]

perhaps they should now concentrate on a plastic that doesn't melt down to a blob on the floor!! lol!!

Steel would satisfy that in 1 go.

 

[Engineer54]

Steel would satisfy that in 1 go.

If that's the way they will go, ...bang goes all your 50 quid 17th ed, all in CU's!! lol!!

 

[Engineer54]

No comment

Not a friend of yours either then? ...lol!!

I must admit, he is the only daft bugger i know of, that has ditched his DNO TN-S earth in favour of a 50 ohm Ra TT rod!! It's safer don't you know!!! lol!!