Five fold increase in fusebox fires

[Deleted member 9648]

A combination of lack of understanding and poor gear. As someone already stated older boards and high current terminations were once made of chunky brass with two terminal screws. Today most terminals are rubbish,not deep enough and poor screws which rarely fit any screwdriver obtainable on planet earth.Any movement of the conductor after tightening the screw will immediately loosen the grip on the copper due to the leverage imposed on inadequate clamping. This is where understanding and care comes in. If the tails are secured so there can be no movement,and the very last job before fitting the cover is to check the tightness of terminations then there wont be any fires. As for torqueing screws...tripe...this requirement assumes unskilled installation.Another issue is the 'slot under the mcb screw copper busbar' on some cheaper boards.....how any manufacturer can think they are a good idea is beyond me.

 

[davesparks]

Fuseboards have been made of plastic since the days when they were still using wooden boards and actually had fuses in them (Wylex half wood/half plastic anyone?), but the plastic is to blame for the increase in fires on the last couple of years? What a loada BS!

 

[7029 dave]

Wylex, old boards 2 screw, solid bus bar, nice solid cu. Must be away of making them to17th edition.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I reckon a lot of it will be down to loose terminals. All the burnt out switchgear I have seen is usually melted around the terminals. Bus bars are quite often not sitting right in the various cage clamps. Some folk are generally limp wristed and they need a good torqueing to!

Tighten up, gentle wiggle, retighten, wait 10 mins and the last lil tweak. Sorted!

Nice to know that the ole wooden backed 3036's are safe! Haha!

 

[Knobhead]

Tighten up, gentle wiggle, retighten, wait 10 mins and the last lil tweak. Sorted!

Now go and learn how to use a torque driver properly.

 

[Rockingit]

I think its a combination of all these factors, with the fault laying with the DIY sheds. And here's why: Properly trained Spark is now competing against Electrical Trainee who is competing against DIY. Sheds sell stuff to the DIY at the same price that the Spark buys from his wholesalers. Margins disappear so build quality drops. So you now have a situation where poorly 'trained' people are installing inferior equipment. If the only place these products were available was in the wholesale chain then at least the manufacturers wouldn't be quite so squeezed and the installers could be made aware of recall issues.

 

[Engineer54]

DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

It would be a far better idea and will be far more productive to clean up the electrical industry as it stands at the moment, before you start aiming the blame at everyone else. At the end of the day the general public doesn't owe electricians a living.....

 

[Rockingit]

DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

It would be a far better idea and will be far more productive to clean up the electrical industry as it stands at the moment, before you start aiming the blame at everyone else. At the end of the day the general public doesn't owe electricians a living.....

Whilst I broadly agree with that, and I too very definitely agree that the public doesn't owe us a living, I think the big game changer over the last decade has simply been the internet - no longer is it a 'dark art' to Mr DIY when he can just Google some step by step instructions or watch a YouTube 'tutorial'. And whilst the sheds shouldn't be 'banned' from selling electrical items, they should have a code of conduct imposed on them - for example (and I think I've said this on here before) a sixteen year old cannot go to the counter to buy glue (glue sniffing) or a knife, yet they can walk out with a CU, couple of 50m drums of T&E, all the trimmings and outlets for probably less than £200.00 and rewire their Nan's bungalow over a weekend (theoretically speaking, of course - it'd be a miracle if you could actually manage to kick said sixteen year old out of bed before the Shed closed).

 

[D Skelton]

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

Certain electrical goods mate.

The more I've thought about this over time the more I've started to come round to the idea that it would be a bad idea to ban the sale of all electrical equipment to the general public. Lights, switches, sockets etc.. I was thinking that it's fair to say that a competent DIYer is well within his rights to change a socket or switch. Well, that was until the other day. The other day I was carrying out a periodic inspection in a property where the lighting circuits had no cpc yet just weeks ago the owner had gone round and changed every socket, light and switch for metal ones. Every light switch and light fitting had to be changed back to plastic. He was completely oblivious to the danger posed when he carried out the work.

And you say banning is a bad idea?!

I fail to see how this will come back to bite the spark in the backside??

Ok, I understand the need for the general public to be able to get hold of plug tops, fuse wire, cable clips and bits and bobs, but distribution boards and cable?? No.

In my opinion, the best solution is a mandatory licence, restricted only to those with a core qual, an NVQ3 (or equivalent) and an AM2, and the sale of electrical equipment restricted only to those with the aforementioned licence. The holder of the licence would be obligated to keep up to date with current regs and maybe sit an AM2 style assessment with an additional few written papers every five years or something.

The one bad thing with this style system I can see would be retired sparks being unable to carry out work in their own homes. I suppose the whole idea however would be about doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people though. A shame a few thousand retired sparks can't carry out work on their own homes without keeping up with the licence requirements, but at the same time many hundreds of thousands of people are prevented from potentially killing themselves and their families??

Whatever happens and whatever your current view, one thing is for sure, and that is that a serious debate involving a diverse range of people from across the industry needs to happen. From the big companies to the small, from the H&SE to the general public, from the writers of the regs to the followers of them, from the fire fighters picking up the pieces of dodgy DIY work to the spark putting right the wrongs of the 5WWs. We as an industry, as a collective of people with varying experiences and skills, we need to sit down in a massive room and decide as a gorup what is best for the public, not the private money grabbing scam companies profiting enormously from the misery of others!!!

 

[DPG]

If you want to ban the public from buying switches and sockets, you will need to stop them buying brake pads for cars as well. And many other things. Daz

 

[Engineer54]

Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....

 

[shanky887614]

Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....

im not in favor of outright banning electrical goods BUT.

I would like to see what they have done in say Australia where there is a mininum price for sale to joe public.

I wouldnt mind if anyone with a level 3 electrical qualification/equivalent or higher could get them at a lower rate, this would allow both retired electricians and mates to buy the items who havent gotten an nvq.

one of the best electrical contractors I have ever worked with is only qualified as a mate but more knowledgeable than the electricians they work with

 

[Engineer54]

What the hell has holding an NVQ or not, got to do with anything?? But it just goes to show how unworkable such a system would be!! Whatever restrictive sale of electrical goods that went into operation would diminish sales and therefore prices WILL increase. In any/every case where a restrictive sales policy is in place, prices increase and work decreases, ....it's a fact of life!!

The fact is, you will NEVER stop the DIY Daves of this world, no matter what restrictions or legislations are in place, bit like nature really, ....they will always find a way!! lol!!

 

[shanky887614]

What the hell has holding an NVQ or not, got to do with anything?? But it just goes to show how unworkable such a system would be!! Whatever restrictive sale of electrical goods that went into operation would diminish sales and therefore prices WILL increase. In any/every case where a restrictive sales policy is in place, prices increase and work decreases, ....it's a fact of life!!

The fact is, you will NEVER stop the DIY Daves of this world, no matter what restrictions or legislations are in place, bit like nature really, ....they will always find a way!! lol!!

thats the point of it being more expensive for people not in the trade as it means they are less likely to do it themselfs

 

[Gavin A]

A new regulation coming into force in January will make it mandatory for all fuse boards to be made from fireproof material or be in a special fireproof box.

erm anyone know anything about this?

presumably they mean all new 'fuse boards', not all fuse boards?

 

[Engineer54]

thats the point of it being more expensive for people not in the trade as it means they are less likely to do it themselfs

Now that is just Naive!!

 

[Engineer54]

erm anyone know anything about this?

presumably they mean all new 'fuse boards', not all fuse boards?

They are supposed to be already ''Fire Proof'', most if not all, will just melt down to a molten blob on the floor!! lol!!

 

[Knobhead]

This sounds like the scare stories about the old Wylex BS3036 boards. Can’t say I’ve ever heard of the wooden pattress spontaneously combusting. In fact I chucked one on the open fire, took hours to burn.

As for DIY Dave, America seems to have addressed the problem, why can’t the UK?

 

[D Skelton]

Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....

You raise some interesting points. I think the idea of banning the sale of electrical equipment to Joe Public is a discussion we do need to have.

I don't particularly agree with you on the point about material prices skyrocketing. Having spoken with a few managers of wholesalers, most of whom wouldn't be phased at all if they were no longer allowed to sell to Joe Public (TLC aside!). The manager of my local YESSS branch told me quite recently that 95% of their business is with the trade, so the main price increases would be your sundries really as it would be the wholesale distribution prices that would be affected. Sockets, switches, junction boxes, fancy lighting, 1mm T+E and 2.5mm T+E, and even then, they wouldn't be horrendous.

I'm totally with you on the nanny state side of things, my worry however is that in your own words 'sorting out' the electrical industry will inevitably have the side effect of pushing tens of thousands of unqualified and untrained 'electricians' out of business because let's face it, not many will be willing to use a four year grace period to get themselves a core qualification and proof of experience under supervision. The small amount of 'good' 5WWs will do the right thing I'm sure and get trained up (and by 'good' I mean concious about doing the right thing). A large number of bad ones however I expect would opt to fly under the radar rather than joining the club above the raised bar, thus becoming Joe Public themselves!

How would you prevent the thousands of 5WWs who don't want to upskill but at the same time still want to operate from doing so?

If there are other options I'm all ears, this is one area where my ideas are not especially set in stone so am open to suggestion, but the way I see it at the moment, if you increase the level of qualification and experience required to become an electrician, thousands simply won't be capable, so will just continue regardless?

The only other option I can think of is heavy penalties for those who operate without a licence and mass public awareness campaigns of the importance of only using licenced electricians, but then we're back to this 'nanny state' business are we not??

 

[Guest111]

As I see it we don't want a nanny state,there's too much of that going on already,take the issue with cyclists for example,I,m sick to death of having it rammed down my throat that I should watch out for them,yet they leap out at junctions,ignore red lights,ride on pavements when it suits them and basically flout the law,yet it seems to be the motorist that has to bear all the responsibility for their actions.Same with electrics,people always have and always will try and do it themselves,if we are going to stop it then how far do we go?we bad sheds or anywhere else selling the gear,then we close all electrical forums just on the off chance that one or two get on them and get advice that they misinterpret and cause harm to themselves and their families.lets be honest think of things like the ccc of cables,look anywhere and you can find them listed,so joe public looks on line and finds that cable X will carry Y number of amps so he's off and running,no mention of volt drop,I remember in college as an apprentice being told that if the run was short enough you could wire an immersion in 1mm,now we know about volt drop etc but JP doesn't If we went to ban things to JP then we'd be opening a pandoras box.They'll always get stuff from somewhere,possibly car boot sales,and then we'd just have a huge black market in electrical equipment,look at beer during prohibition,or the massive illegal drugs trade.Far better for insurance companies to ask for proof that work was carried out by a qualified electrician,I know not everybody has home insurance( I don't) but like the cyclists JP should take responsibility for their own actions.