Five fold increase in fusebox fires

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Discuss Five fold increase in fusebox fires in the Security Alarms, Door Entry and CCTV (Public) area at ElectriciansForums.net

5 fold rise = 5 week wonders, or 5 pounds per hour foreigners.
 
LFB said fuse boards with faulty components, poor wiring and firms using moulded plastic, which is less fire-resistant, were among the reasons.

The fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check that fuse boards in their properties were on the Electrical Safety First's recall list.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check whether their 'Installer' is listed on the Competent Persons Scheme (or whatever it's called)?!?!?!
 
The fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check that fuse boards in their properties were on the Electrical Safety First's recall list.

Shouldn't that be the other way around?

BTW I quite deliberately removed the hyperlink.
 
How much? can't afford that I'll the handyman at work to do it, he's pretty good, NOT, think Tel is right on with what he said.
 
▲ No because those BG boards are pretty good, try CEF's Proteus if you want to see crap

Im going with poor install, although it does say fusebox and not consumer unit so maybe its back in the day spark's work ;)
 
D Skelton said:
BBC News - 'Five-fold rise' in fuse board fires in London

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I wonder what the reson for this could be?????????????????
Click to expand...

Mr DS, I'm surprised at you! You normally give a very rational and professional point of view, yet here you are just giving a 'sensational' headline followed by a weighted prod towards your viewpoint.

Statistics are meaningless, unless the data is collected and collated under extremely controlled conditions. Also the full article states as the main cause:

"The increase is thought to be because many homes have fuse boards with components which are subject to a product recall."

It does give the other reasons releating to poor wiring and firms using moulded plastic but it intimates that the main reason is as above.

I'd be interested as to what your "????????????" imply?

If it is aimed at Electrical Trainee, then I'm sure you are probably partly right, but from the article it looks like the main reason is due to poor product recall of faulty parts.
 
old ones had a 2 screws each on incomer terminals, fuses held not by screws but spring action.... new ones are bulls*it, them wires do have thermal expansion and those screws may come loose one day.
 
happyhippydad said:
Mr DS, I'm surprised at you! You normally give a very rational and professional point of view, yet here you are just giving a 'sensational' headline followed by a weighted prod towards your viewpoint.

Statistics are meaningless, unless the data is collected and collated under extremely controlled conditions. Also the full article states as the main cause:

"The increase is thought to be because many homes have fuse boards with components which are subject to a product recall."

It does give the other reasons releating to poor wiring and firms using moulded plastic but it intimates that the main reason is as above.

I'd be interested as to what your "????????????" imply?

If it is aimed at Electrical Trainee, then I'm sure you are probably partly right, but from the article it looks like the main reason is due to poor product recall of faulty parts.
Click to expand...

Are 5WWs fully to blame? No, of course not, but the enormous rise would be just too much of a coincidence if they didn't have at least something to do with it!

Product recall my backside. Yes there are some which will have dodgy components within but enough for a five fold increase?? No chance.

As for citing moulded plastic as a reason, I've never heard such crud in all my life! It may be worth reminding people that our cables are insulated with blimmin' plastic. It doesn't just catch fire for sh*ts and giggles does it? It doesn't start fires, it just burns easier than metal, and the notion that using metal or fire resistant boards will cut down on 'fusebox' fires is just bogus! A monkey putting in a metal board is just painting a turd gold really isn't he, chances are the wiring will be just as crap within.

I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess as to what proportion of these fires were caused by faulty wiring, but I'd be willing to bet that it's gonna be more than just a few. 5WWs maybe? DIYers, almost definitely!

All the more reason to pull the plug on this Electrical Trainee malarkey and prevent the sale of certain electrical goods to anyone who doesn't hold a licence.
 
You may well be right but it does look a little like you are eager to accept the 'five fold increase' but not so eager to accept the reasons given.. all in the same article.. written by the same person.

IF (and thats a mighty IF) the x5 increase is correct then perhaps:

1. DIY installers
2. Poorly trained installers or just poor installers (Electrical Trainee 50%/other50%??)
3. Too few EICR's or service/check (whatever you want to call it) of consumer units.
4. Poor product recall.
5. Moulded plastic?? Agree this does seem a bit odd.

Plus I'd be interested in the statistics for the rest of the country?
If the the criteria for these statistics has changed over the past few years?
Are better records being kept?
Are managers pushing firemen harder to keep records due to government pressure? (I know I am where I work)
etc etc..
 
Last edited:
Archy Styrigg said:
I wonder if the fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check whether their 'Installer' is listed on the Competent Persons Scheme (or whatever it's called)?!?!?!
Click to expand...

Instructed person and skilled person, soon. Anyone like to hazzard a guess to just what the difference is going to be....at ground level.
Are we going to get vans with 'domestic instructed person' signs all over the place ? Fat chance!
 
Has anyone considered the fact that we are in an economic disaster with unemployment high, wage increases capped, the cost of private renting raising daily, along with the cost of utilities. I'm guessing that a lot of these fire are caused by people wiring the electricity meter to try and save a few quid which could mean they can give themselves a healthy meal (or 20 Benson & Hedges and a bottle of cheap cider)
 
A combination of lack of understanding and poor gear. As someone already stated older boards and high current terminations were once made of chunky brass with two terminal screws. Today most terminals are rubbish,not deep enough and poor screws which rarely fit any screwdriver obtainable on planet earth.Any movement of the conductor after tightening the screw will immediately loosen the grip on the copper due to the leverage imposed on inadequate clamping. This is where understanding and care comes in. If the tails are secured so there can be no movement,and the very last job before fitting the cover is to check the tightness of terminations then there wont be any fires. As for torqueing screws...tripe...this requirement assumes unskilled installation.Another issue is the 'slot under the mcb screw copper busbar' on some cheaper boards.....how any manufacturer can think they are a good idea is beyond me.
 
Fuseboards have been made of plastic since the days when they were still using wooden boards and actually had fuses in them (Wylex half wood/half plastic anyone?), but the plastic is to blame for the increase in fires on the last couple of years? What a loada BS!
 
I reckon a lot of it will be down to loose terminals. All the burnt out switchgear I have seen is usually melted around the terminals. Bus bars are quite often not sitting right in the various cage clamps. Some folk are generally limp wristed and they need a good torqueing to!

Tighten up, gentle wiggle, retighten, wait 10 mins and the last lil tweak. Sorted!

Nice to know that the ole wooden backed 3036's are safe! Haha!
 
I think its a combination of all these factors, with the fault laying with the DIY sheds. And here's why: Properly trained Spark is now competing against Electrical Trainee who is competing against DIY. Sheds sell stuff to the DIY at the same price that the Spark buys from his wholesalers. Margins disappear so build quality drops. So you now have a situation where poorly 'trained' people are installing inferior equipment. If the only place these products were available was in the wholesale chain then at least the manufacturers wouldn't be quite so squeezed and the installers could be made aware of recall issues.
 
DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

It would be a far better idea and will be far more productive to clean up the electrical industry as it stands at the moment, before you start aiming the blame at everyone else. At the end of the day the general public doesn't owe electricians a living.....
 
Engineer54 said:
DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.

Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.

It would be a far better idea and will be far more productive to clean up the electrical industry as it stands at the moment, before you start aiming the blame at everyone else. At the end of the day the general public doesn't owe electricians a living.....
Click to expand...

Whilst I broadly agree with that, and I too very definitely agree that the public doesn't owe us a living, I think the big game changer over the last decade has simply been the internet - no longer is it a 'dark art' to Mr DIY when he can just Google some step by step instructions or watch a YouTube 'tutorial'. And whilst the sheds shouldn't be 'banned' from selling electrical items, they should have a code of conduct imposed on them - for example (and I think I've said this on here before) a sixteen year old cannot go to the counter to buy glue (glue sniffing) or a knife, yet they can walk out with a CU, couple of 50m drums of T&E, all the trimmings and outlets for probably less than £200.00 and rewire their Nan's bungalow over a weekend (theoretically speaking, of course - it'd be a miracle if you could actually manage to kick said sixteen year old out of bed before the Shed closed).
 
Engineer54 said:
Banning the sale of electrical goods from the sheds and/or to the general public is a BAD idea all round, and one that will come back and bite the journeyman electrician firmly in the arse.
Click to expand...

Certain electrical goods mate.

The more I've thought about this over time the more I've started to come round to the idea that it would be a bad idea to ban the sale of all electrical equipment to the general public. Lights, switches, sockets etc.. I was thinking that it's fair to say that a competent DIYer is well within his rights to change a socket or switch. Well, that was until the other day. The other day I was carrying out a periodic inspection in a property where the lighting circuits had no cpc yet just weeks ago the owner had gone round and changed every socket, light and switch for metal ones. Every light switch and light fitting had to be changed back to plastic. He was completely oblivious to the danger posed when he carried out the work.

And you say banning is a bad idea?!

I fail to see how this will come back to bite the spark in the backside??

Ok, I understand the need for the general public to be able to get hold of plug tops, fuse wire, cable clips and bits and bobs, but distribution boards and cable?? No.

In my opinion, the best solution is a mandatory licence, restricted only to those with a core qual, an NVQ3 (or equivalent) and an AM2, and the sale of electrical equipment restricted only to those with the aforementioned licence. The holder of the licence would be obligated to keep up to date with current regs and maybe sit an AM2 style assessment with an additional few written papers every five years or something.

The one bad thing with this style system I can see would be retired sparks being unable to carry out work in their own homes. I suppose the whole idea however would be about doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people though. A shame a few thousand retired sparks can't carry out work on their own homes without keeping up with the licence requirements, but at the same time many hundreds of thousands of people are prevented from potentially killing themselves and their families??

Whatever happens and whatever your current view, one thing is for sure, and that is that a serious debate involving a diverse range of people from across the industry needs to happen. From the big companies to the small, from the H&SE to the general public, from the writers of the regs to the followers of them, from the fire fighters picking up the pieces of dodgy DIY work to the spark putting right the wrongs of the 5WWs. We as an industry, as a collective of people with varying experiences and skills, we need to sit down in a massive room and decide as a gorup what is best for the public, not the private money grabbing scam companies profiting enormously from the misery of others!!!
 
If you want to ban the public from buying switches and sockets, you will need to stop them buying brake pads for cars as well. And many other things. Daz
 
Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....
 
Engineer54 said:
Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....
Click to expand...
im not in favor of outright banning electrical goods BUT.

I would like to see what they have done in say Australia where there is a mininum price for sale to joe public.

I wouldnt mind if anyone with a level 3 electrical qualification/equivalent or higher could get them at a lower rate, this would allow both retired electricians and mates to buy the items who havent gotten an nvq.

one of the best electrical contractors I have ever worked with is only qualified as a mate but more knowledgeable than the electricians they work with
 
What the hell has holding an NVQ or not, got to do with anything?? But it just goes to show how unworkable such a system would be!! Whatever restrictive sale of electrical goods that went into operation would diminish sales and therefore prices WILL increase. In any/every case where a restrictive sales policy is in place, prices increase and work decreases, ....it's a fact of life!!

The fact is, you will NEVER stop the DIY Daves of this world, no matter what restrictions or legislations are in place, bit like nature really, ....they will always find a way!! lol!!
 
Engineer54 said:
What the hell has holding an NVQ or not, got to do with anything?? But it just goes to show how unworkable such a system would be!! Whatever restrictive sale of electrical goods that went into operation would diminish sales and therefore prices WILL increase. In any/every case where a restrictive sales policy is in place, prices increase and work decreases, ....it's a fact of life!!

The fact is, you will NEVER stop the DIY Daves of this world, no matter what restrictions or legislations are in place, bit like nature really, ....they will always find a way!! lol!!
Click to expand...
thats the point of it being more expensive for people not in the trade as it means they are less likely to do it themselfs
 
A new regulation coming into force in January will make it mandatory for all fuse boards to be made from fireproof material or be in a special fireproof box.
Click to expand...
erm anyone know anything about this?

presumably they mean all new 'fuse boards', not all fuse boards?
 
This sounds like the scare stories about the old Wylex BS3036 boards. Can’t say I’ve ever heard of the wooden pattress spontaneously combusting. In fact I chucked one on the open fire, took hours to burn.

As for DIY Dave, America seems to have addressed the problem, why can’t the UK?
 
Engineer54 said:
Anyone that thinks banning the sale of electrical goods from sheds or to the public will soon find that the price of those day to day goods will literally skyrocket in price, to a point where bona fide electricians will see domestic work drying up across the board. Whereas at the moment these DIY'ers are actually a source of income, putting right what they have got wrong. Unfortunately when you start restricting sales, it never seems to stop where you expect it too. You'll all get your arse well and truly bitten.

Thank god you'll never get past the big retail outlets, they will never let you get a toe in the door let alone a foot!! lol!!

Besides anything else, who the hell wants the UK to become a bloody Nanny State??

As i say, far better to get your own electrical industry sorted out, before you start throwing stones and blame at everyone else, the biggest problem(s) are a lot closer to home than your average DIY Dave.....
Click to expand...

You raise some interesting points. I think the idea of banning the sale of electrical equipment to Joe Public is a discussion we do need to have.

I don't particularly agree with you on the point about material prices skyrocketing. Having spoken with a few managers of wholesalers, most of whom wouldn't be phased at all if they were no longer allowed to sell to Joe Public (TLC aside!). The manager of my local YESSS branch told me quite recently that 95% of their business is with the trade, so the main price increases would be your sundries really as it would be the wholesale distribution prices that would be affected. Sockets, switches, junction boxes, fancy lighting, 1mm T+E and 2.5mm T+E, and even then, they wouldn't be horrendous.

I'm totally with you on the nanny state side of things, my worry however is that in your own words 'sorting out' the electrical industry will inevitably have the side effect of pushing tens of thousands of unqualified and untrained 'electricians' out of business because let's face it, not many will be willing to use a four year grace period to get themselves a core qualification and proof of experience under supervision. The small amount of 'good' 5WWs will do the right thing I'm sure and get trained up (and by 'good' I mean concious about doing the right thing). A large number of bad ones however I expect would opt to fly under the radar rather than joining the club above the raised bar, thus becoming Joe Public themselves!

How would you prevent the thousands of 5WWs who don't want to upskill but at the same time still want to operate from doing so?

If there are other options I'm all ears, this is one area where my ideas are not especially set in stone so am open to suggestion, but the way I see it at the moment, if you increase the level of qualification and experience required to become an electrician, thousands simply won't be capable, so will just continue regardless?

The only other option I can think of is heavy penalties for those who operate without a licence and mass public awareness campaigns of the importance of only using licenced electricians, but then we're back to this 'nanny state' business are we not??
 
As I see it we don't want a nanny state,there's too much of that going on already,take the issue with cyclists for example,I,m sick to death of having it rammed down my throat that I should watch out for them,yet they leap out at junctions,ignore red lights,ride on pavements when it suits them and basically flout the law,yet it seems to be the motorist that has to bear all the responsibility for their actions.Same with electrics,people always have and always will try and do it themselves,if we are going to stop it then how far do we go?we bad sheds or anywhere else selling the gear,then we close all electrical forums just on the off chance that one or two get on them and get advice that they misinterpret and cause harm to themselves and their families.lets be honest think of things like the ccc of cables,look anywhere and you can find them listed,so joe public looks on line and finds that cable X will carry Y number of amps so he's off and running,no mention of volt drop,I remember in college as an apprentice being told that if the run was short enough you could wire an immersion in 1mm,now we know about volt drop etc but JP doesn't If we went to ban things to JP then we'd be opening a pandoras box.They'll always get stuff from somewhere,possibly car boot sales,and then we'd just have a huge black market in electrical equipment,look at beer during prohibition,or the massive illegal drugs trade.Far better for insurance companies to ask for proof that work was carried out by a qualified electrician,I know not everybody has home insurance( I don't) but like the cyclists JP should take responsibility for their own actions.
 
Banning stuff is nonsense. Where do you stop? Nanny State-ism!!!
It's all about 'Personal Responsibility' to me.
If someone wants to put their life, and others around them, at risk, that's their business and conscience to wrestle with.
Who am I to tell anyone what they can and cannot do?
Yeah...NOBODY! :)
 
I'm totally with people on the whole 'nanny state' business. I hate nanny states as much as anyone. I just can't see the point in trying to upskill the industry if it's going to be business as usual for every Electrical Trainee out there anyway?
 
Archy Styrigg said:
Banning stuff is nonsense. Where do you stop? Nanny State-ism!!!
It's all about 'Personal Responsibility' to me.
If someone wants to put their life, and others around them, at risk, that's their business and conscience to wrestle with.
Who am I to tell anyone what they can and cannot do?
Yeah...NOBODY! :)
Click to expand...
And thereby hangs the nub of the problem,in these days of H&S and nanny state people have lost the capability to think for themselves,Billy falls out of a tree and breaks his arm,now it's not Billy's fault oh no,it's either the fault of the tree owner for planting it or someone else's fault for not telling Billy not to climb the tree.
 
Engineer54 said:
DIY Daves have been around from time immemorial, they haven't been a problem in the past and i don't see them being any major problem now. The typical DIY Dave would have to be complete and utter idiot in the first place, to even attempt a CU change. I'd go as far as saying that very few DIY'ers go that far.
Click to expand...

But there surely has to be an increase due to the use of forums, you only have to look across different boards to see the questions relating to cu swaps.
 
Didn't really get the chance fella. We were asked not to repeat each other, Mr Morris did most of the talking and I agreed with most of it. I gave a brief account of my thoughts on the current situation, mostly in line with what had already been said. Mr Pollock gave the most damning evidence having been a Electrical Trainee himself prior to getting fully qualified, evidence I could not give. What exactly could I have added other than the answers to the questions that were directed at me? They asked me about enforcement so I answered, I wasn't going to go off on one about 5WWs at that point as that would not have addressed the question asked. They asked me about solutions and I answered. We only had an hour and most of that was taken up by Mr Morris talking about the schemes dirty behaviour and Mr Judson talking about nonsense.

I didn't see you there???
 
D Skelton said:
Certain electrical goods mate.

The more I've thought about this over time the more I've started to come round to the idea that it would be a bad idea to ban the sale of all electrical equipment to the general public. Lights, switches, sockets etc.. I was thinking that it's fair to say that a competent DIYer is well within his rights to change a socket or switch. Well, that was until the other day. The other day I was carrying out a periodic inspection in a property where the lighting circuits had no cpc yet just weeks ago the owner had gone round and changed every socket, light and switch for metal ones. Every light switch and light fitting had to be changed back to plastic. He was completely oblivious to the danger posed when he carried out the work.

And you say banning is a bad idea?!

I fail to see how this will come back to bite the spark in the backside??

Ok, I understand the need for the general public to be able to get hold of plug tops, fuse wire, cable clips and bits and bobs, but distribution boards and cable?? No.

In my opinion, the best solution is a mandatory licence, restricted only to those with a core qual, an NVQ3 (or equivalent) and an AM2, and the sale of electrical equipment restricted only to those with the aforementioned licence. The holder of the licence would be obligated to keep up to date with current regs and maybe sit an AM2 style assessment with an additional few written papers every five years or something.

The one bad thing with this style system I can see would be retired sparks being unable to carry out work in their own homes. I suppose the whole idea however would be about doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people though. A shame a few thousand retired sparks can't carry out work on their own homes without keeping up with the licence requirements, but at the same time many hundreds of thousands of people are prevented from potentially killing themselves and their families??

Whatever happens and whatever your current view, one thing is for sure, and that is that a serious debate involving a diverse range of people from across the industry needs to happen. From the big companies to the small, from the H&SE to the general public, from the writers of the regs to the followers of them, from the fire fighters picking up the pieces of dodgy DIY work to the spark putting right the wrongs of the 5WWs. We as an industry, as a collective of people with varying experiences and skills, we need to sit down in a massive room and decide as a gorup what is best for the public, not the private money grabbing scam companies profiting enormously from the misery of others!!!
Click to expand...


Well he wasn't competent then was he?
 
My point exactly WP. My dad could change a socket or switch just fine, he's more than able to provide a sound termination and fold the cables back neatly. Would he know not to fit a metal switch if there was no earth present? I doubt it. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, no DIYer will ever be truly competent in the fullest sense of the word.
 
Does anyone remember the Electium recall , I went round all my jobs and changed loads of MCBs . I bet theres still loads out there that haven't been changed ..
 
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