Gas boiler service

[atm84]

Hi I had my gas boiler serviced a few weeks ago and just received the invoice.

I haven't received any other paperwork in regards to the service. Isn't it compulsory to issue some sort of cert. We don't even know if the boiler was ok.

If I have a Periodic Inspection of the electrical installation I receive a cert, if I have my car serviced I receive a breakdown of what was carried out, why don't I receive anything for a boiler service.

I remember a few years ago when I lived in rented property I received a cert when the boiler was serviced.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Octopus]

Don't pay the invoice and email the company requesting the paperwork..... and if no paperwork appears don't pay the bill until it does.

 

[atm84]

That's fair enough but I am wondering whether it's normal practice to issue a cert after servicing a boiler. Can any heating engineers comment?

 

[davesparks]

I don't think there is any certificate to be issued.
When you were in rented accommodation it would have been different as there would have been a landlords gas safety test carried out which is part of the gas safety laws and so has official documentation.
A boiler service is not part of the gas safety laws but is just a manufacturers recommendation so carries no official paperwork.
The invoice will be your record of having had the service carried out. Boilers are often supplied with a manual/paperwork of some kind which includes space to record each service much like the service record for a car. If you have made this available to the person doing the service then they will have filled it in, if not then I doubt they'll have gone rummaging through your house to try and find it.

 

[davesparks]

Don't pay the invoice and email the company requesting the paperwork..... and if no paperwork appears don't pay the bill until it does.

Exactly what paperwork should he be asking for? He has the invoice, and the service record book will have been filled in if the customer made it available to the person doing the service.
Withholding payment will only lead to him being pursued by the debt collectors.

 

[Octopus]

Exactly what paperwork should he be asking for? He has the invoice, and the service record book will have been filled in if the customer made it available to the person doing the service.
Withholding payment will only lead to him being pursued by the debt collectors.

I wasn't suggesting he didn't pay - more like delay payment until the situation is clarified by the company who did the service!

 

[atm84]

Thanks Davesparks. That's clarified things.

 

[solarsavings]

There is no paperwork produced when we service a boiler unless a safety issue has been discovered. The benchmark book may need the service recording depending on the age of the boiler, and you having the benchmark book, which frequently gets misplaced.

The only time we issue paperwork is for a landlords certificate or the commissioning of an new appliance.

 

[davesparks]

I wasn't suggesting he didn't pay - more like delay payment until the situation is clarified by the company who did the service!

You said 'if no paperwork appears, don't pay'

 

[Octopus]

You said 'if no paperwork appears, don't pay'

OK, OK, maybe I should have put more thought into that sentence! unk:

 

[chris murphy]

Hi I had my gas boiler serviced a few weeks ago and just received the invoice.

I haven't received any other paperwork in regards to the service. Isn't it compulsory to issue some sort of cert. We don't even know if the boiler was ok.

If I have a Periodic Inspection of the electrical installation I receive a cert, if I have my car serviced I receive a breakdown of what was carried out, why don't I receive anything for a boiler service.

I remember a few years ago when I lived in rented property I received a cert when the boiler was serviced.

Any advice would be appreciated.

"Hello atm84",

As other Members have stated there is no official Certificate required for a Boiler service - BUT if I was involved in Boiler Servicing I would have produced a `Gas Appliance Service / Repair Report` Form with all of the necessary items to Check / Clean etc. listed on it - plus boxes to tick and sections for comments.


A Professional approach would definitely dictate that there should be an itemised `Appliance Servicing Report` Form to complete and give a copy to the Householder / Customer.

I would expect any Company or Individual that does Gas Appliance Servicing & Repair works to have these `Appliance Servicing / Repair Report` Forms.


I don`t want to worry You / other Members but a recent Investigation by Which Magazine found that a VERY LOW percentage - IF ANY of the `Boiler Engineers` that they arranged were carrying out the correct Servicing procedures when they set up some Servicing appointments in August.

I really was disgusted when I read about these findings - especially as British Gas and SSE Engineers were amongst those involved in this Which Investigation !


Here are two articles about this from Which:

Can you trust your boiler engineer? - August - 2015 - Which? News

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/boilers/article/getting-the-best-boiler-service

Here is an article written by the `Gas Expert` / Gas Engineer who covertly watched the Servicing for Which [hidden cctv cameras] - He states that NOT ONE of the `Boiler Engineers` carried out the Servicing correctly:

Boiler servicing investigation expert: 'I was stunned' - Which? Conversation


I don`t want to worry Members - BUT - I would like everyone to be SAFE at Home regarding the Annual Servicing / Condition of their Gas Appliances.

However without actually having a list of the Servicing procedures and watching everything that the Boiler Engineer does to ensure that everything on the list IS Checked / Cleaned etc. there is NO WAY to be sure that a Gas Appliance Service has been carried out correctly - doing that is obviously impractical for most people.

After reading these articles how can anyone ever have confidence in a Boiler Engineer / a Boiler Service again ?


Which did produce a Boiler Servicing Diagram relating to their investigation showing the items to be Checked etc. but I cannot see how to attach it to this message - I don`t see any `Browse` facility to attach an image here - I don`t have a `URL` to enter for the Diagram that I downloaded onto my Computer - am I missing something regarding attaching a File / Image on here ?

Members can download that Diagram / `Boiler servicing Checklist`from the Which Boiler Servicing Review article:

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/boilers/article/getting-the-best-boiler-serviceRegards,


Chris

 

[Plonker 3]

Chris, who made this check list gas safe or which?

forget that found it, so the customer is supposed to stand there behind the qualified person servicing the boiler with a tick sheet, without actually knowing what they are looking for.

 

[ImpededLoop]

They should have left a small slip of paper (like a till roll) with you that shows the results of the flue gas tests.

 

[Midwest]

I can't remember getting some form of record, when I last had my boiler serviced by Worcester-Bosch. And thinking about,I think you should get something. You get a receipt for just about anything else.

 

[Midwest]

You said 'if no paperwork appears, don't pay'

Tax man does that every year to me.

 

[valleybilly]

Gas Safe have forms for this. Its usually a 3 x duplicate Service copy form ( White/Pink/Yellow ) 1 copy for customer 1 for landlord if needed and 1 to be retained by service engineer. Flue analysis is mandatory now for boilers / grills / ovens / fires and you should have a copy of these with the record if there not cowboys. the form can include up to 4 appliances. they should also rate each appliance to make sure correct pipe sizing to each appliance to confirm gas supply is adequate . a bit like cable sizing with electrics.

 

[atm84]

Gas Safe have forms for this. Its usually a 3 x duplicate Service copy form ( White/Pink/Yellow ) 1 copy for customer 1 for landlord if needed and 1 to be retained by service engineer. Flue analysis is mandatory now for boilers / grills / ovens / fires and you should have a copy of these with the record if there not cowboys. the form can include up to 4 appliances. they should also rate each appliance to make sure correct pipe sizing to each appliance to confirm gas supply is adequate . a bit like cable sizing with electrics.

Like you state that's for Landlords. I'm not a landlord, I'm a normal homeowner, therefore should I still receive the said form?

 

[snowhead]

Hi I had my gas boiler serviced a few weeks ago and just received the invoice.

I haven't received any other paperwork in regards to the service. Isn't it compulsory to issue some sort of cert. We don't even know if the boiler was ok.

You'd know if it wasn't.
There would be a Do not use label stuck on it and whoever was in the house at the time of service would have signed to say they were aware of the situation.

Same as this;

Buy Warning Do Not Use Gas Safety Labels

 

[atm84]

You'd know if it wasn't.
There would be a Do not use label stuck on it and whoever was in the house at the time of service would have signed to say they were aware of the situation.

Same as this;

Buy Warning Do Not Use Gas Safety Labels

I'd like to think so but without anything to confirm otherwise we don't know.

 

[valleybilly]

Like you state that's for Landlords. I'm not a landlord, I'm a normal homeowner, therefore should I still receive the said form?

As stated 1 for the customer 1 for the Landlord if needed. you are the customer !!!

 

[chris murphy]

Chris, who made this check list gas safe or which?

forget that found it, so the customer is supposed to stand there behind the qualified person servicing the boiler with a tick sheet, without actually knowing what they are looking for.

"Hello Dillb",

As far as I remember Which compiled the Checklist in conjunction with the Gas Engineer who they engaged to observe the Service Engineers [I gave a link to His article in my previous message] - but I would be almost certain that Which would also liaise with Gas Safe on something like this - they stated that they `Reported the results of their investigation to Gas Safe` so I think that it would be a fair assumption that they would have submitted a copy of the Checklist to them for advice.

As You will have read in my previous message I realise that it is NOT practical to expect a Householder or Tenant to actually watch the Boiler Engineer servicing their Boiler - my advice for Members would be to produce the Checklist to the Boiler Engineer and politely ask Him [or Her] to tick off the items and Sign under the Checked items.

Doing that MIGHT cause a less than scrupulous Boiler Engineer to realise that the Householder is knowledgeable about what `Checks` should be carried out and perhaps that would motivate the Engineer to do the Boiler service correctly - ?

Other Members have mentioned Combustion Analysis being `Mandatory` - this is NOT the case for ALL Gas Appliances - although I feel that it SHOULD BE !

The use of a Flue Gas Analyser was brought in so that the products of combustion from Condensing Boilers - Flueless Heaters etc. could be checked to see if the appliance is burning correctly and is not producing Carbon Monoxide.

Condensing Boilers and Flueless Fires / Heaters have Gas Control valves that are set up by the Manufacturer and the Gas rate cannot / SHOULD NOT be adjusted so it is important that the Products of Combustion / `Flue Gases` are analysed to check that the products of combustion are within the correct parameters and that the Appliance is `Burning Correctly`.

I did notice that Combustion Analysis was not mentioned on the Which Checklist - I don`t know why ?

It is NOT `Mandatory` to carry out a Flue Gas Analysis on Non Condensing Boilers - although as the `newest` of these Appliances would now be over 10 Years old and some will be 20 - 25 or even 30 Years old -it SHOULD be done by any `Professional` Boiler Engineer / Gas Engineer who HAS TO be carrying / have access to a Combustion Analyser when working on Condensing Boilers and Flueless Heating Appliances.

Open Flue Boilers / Gas Water Heaters etc. [a Gas Appliance connected to a vertical Flue `Pipe` via a Draught Diverter] are another `Must Do` - IN MY OPINION regarding Analysing the Products of Combustion.

BUT this is NOT MANDATORY - if the Spillage Test [Smoke Match or Taper] passes - a Test to ensure that ALL of the products of combustion are entering the Open Flue - there is NO requirement for the Flue Gases to be Analysed - which in my opinion is a dangerous error as Open Flued Gas Boilers / Water Heaters are the MOST DANGEROUS types ofGas Appliances there are - apart from Flueless Gas Fires / Heaters.

When carrying out a Landlords Inspection or a Gas Safety Inspection for a Homeowner it is obviously prudent to carry out an analysis on the Products of Combustion from EVERY Gas Appliance [where possible] including a Cooker / Oven as they are a `Flueless Appliance` and discharge products of combustion into the atmosphere within the Kitchen / Home.

As it IS Mandatory for ALL Heating Engineers / Boiler Engineers and Gas Engineers who work on HEATING Appliances to USE / own / have access to a Combustion Analyser for use on Condensing Boilers and Flueless HEATING Appliances - Engineers who are carrying out Landlords Gas Safety Inspections or Gas Safety Inspections for Homeowners SHOULD include Older / Non Condensing Boilers / Open Flued Gas Appliances and Gas Cookers in their Combustion Analysis.

BUT - Combustion Analysis of those categories of Gas Appliances is NOT `Mandatory` when carrying out Servicing / Repairs or Gas Safety Inspections.

Please excuse Me Dillb for using my reply to You to include briefly describing the situation regarding the supposed `Mandatory Combustion Analysis of Gas Appliances` - this will no doubt provoke arguments from Members who think differently about these points- ?


Regards,

Chris

 

[Midwest]

Do ya know you clicked the bold icon

 

[chris murphy]

Do ya know you clicked the bold icon

"Hello Midwest",

As well as emphasising some points I wanted to add a bit of Colour to the Forum - I know that some Members will HATE that but I cannot please everyone.

What happened was that I wanted to emphasise so many points that this left the `Normal` type / text looking `Lost` amongst the other paragraphs - so I made those paragraphs Bold also.

Thanks for the interest - I had hoped that some of the information that I wrote would be of interest to some Members - ?

Regards,

Chris

 

[solarsavings]

After a Gas Safe registered engineer has fitted or serviced your gas appliance, they will often leave you with a report which explains what checks they did. This report may be issued as a gas safety record, sometimes referred to as a gas safety certificate depending on the job you have asked them to do. It isn’t always a legal requirement for your engineer to give you this type of information, but many Gas Safe registered engineers will provide it or similar.

Gas safety records

 

[chris murphy]

Gas safety records

"Hello solarsavings",

I assume that You are replying to the OP and not to something that I wrote ?

As has been mentioned to the OP most of the Members who replied to Him would agree that something like a `Gas Appliance Servicing Report` should have been given to Him - BUT - it was NOT and there is nothing within any Gas Regulation to stipulate that this must be given.

The listed Checks on a Landlords Inspection Form / Homeowners Gas Safety Record ARE a Legal requirement when these Forms are completed - a `Legal` requirement in terms that ONLY a Gas Safe Registered Engineer / Installer is Legally allowed to complete these Forms - BUT these are NOT Record Forms that can be used to list the items carried out during a Gas Appliance Service.

There are so many individual items to carry out during a Boiler Service for example that to produce a Servicing Report the Engineer would either have to be ticking boxes detailing the `Most Important` tasks OR they would have to describe tasks in writing that encompassed a few items encapsulated into a descriptive sentence about a specific area / component within the Boiler.

An example of the Manufacturers Servicing Instructions for a Baxi Solo HE Boiler consists of 3 x A4 pages of instructions and Diagrams which should be followed exactly to Service the Boiler - this consists of many items to carry out.

As far as I am aware Gas Safe do not produce such a Gas Appliance Servicing Checklist - Corgi used to produce a Servicing Checklist but apart from the `Basics` - Gas pressure at the Appliance - Gas Rate - Heat Input / Output etc. the Form did not contain a detailed `Servicing List`.


THIS IS WHAT GAS SAFE STATE ABOUT GAS SAFETY RECORDS AND SERVICING:

QUOTE:

Gas safety records

After a Gas Safe registered engineer has fitted, carried out a safety check or serviced your gas appliance; they may leave you with a report which explains what checks they have completed. This report may be issued as a gas safety record, depending on the job you have asked them to do. It isn’t always a legal requirement for your engineer to give you this type of information, but many Gas Safe registered engineers will provide it or similar. We recommend you agree with your service provider before they complete the work what documentation you will receive.

The gas safety record tells you that the gas appliance or gas fitting has been checked to see if it is working safely and meets the correct safety standards. This information may also tell you when you next need to service the appliance. As with any documentation always check it includes your engineer’s name and Gas Safe registration number.

END OF QUOTE


As I mentioned in my original reply to this thread - IF I were carrying out Boiler Servicing I would produce my own Boiler Servicing / Repair Report Form and I would expect ANY Company or Self Employed Boiler / Gas Engineer to do the same so that the Householder can be given a copy.


I would have attached some Servicing details as an example of what needs to be done on the Baxi Solo HE Boiler BUT I cannot work out HOW to do this now.

I know that I have attached images and text on here before but I note that there is no `Browse` facility any more - where one could have found the image / text file on their Computer and uploaded it to here and attached it to your message.

Can any helpful Member explain to Me how I can upload Files / Images from my Computer and attach to a message ?

All I can see is `Insert image` which requires that you enter the `URL` - none of my Computer Files / Images have a URL [?].


Regards,

Chris

 

[Richard Burns]

Can any helpful Member explain to Me how I can upload Files / Images from my Computer and attach to a message ?

All I can see is `Insert image` which requires that you enter the `URL` - none of my Computer Files / Images have a URL [?].

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...al-electrical-forum/80468-posting-photos.html
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...eral-electrical-forum/92896-dno-earthing.html

 

[chris murphy]

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...al-electrical-forum/80468-posting-photos.html
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...eral-electrical-forum/92896-dno-earthing.html

"Hello Richard Burns",

Thanks very much for your reply.

However the process that the link that you very kindly included took me to a thread where what I used to do to upload images etc. and attach to a message was described.

Now the Upload & Attach process is NOT the same as I have used before on here - clicking onto `Insert Image` in the toolbar above the message authoring box displays an onscreen box where you have to enter a URL.

I cannot show You an image of that onscreen `box` because I can no longer carry out the process of making a screenshot and then browsing for it on my Computer and Uploading / Attaching it to this message.

Could I please ask You to click onto Reply to this message and then click onto the `Insert Image` button so that you can see what I mean.

None of the images or files that I would have on my Computer have a URL.

I am not any kind of expert in Computing but is a URL not a `Code` / Link for a Video that would be online ?

Something has definitely changed regarding Uploading Images / Files from your Computer and Attaching them to a message.

I used to be able to just `Browse` my Computer from somewhere below the Message box - find the File / Image - click onto it to Upload and then Attach it to my message - that is a simplified explanation from memory of what was done previously.

Any other suggestions ? Have other Members had this problem ?

Thanks again for your interest and message.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Richard Burns]

I think this is a browser / forum incompatibility related issue, often found on internet explorer, I use Chrome and do not have this problem.

Re the picture below, I assume clicking on insert image you get the window on the left without the additional tab that would take you to the window on the top right that allows direct insertion as you describe.

However if you click on go advanced in the bottom right of the reply box and click on attachments then you should be able to "add files" and then "insert inline" to get your pictures into the post.

 

[Midwest]

Hi Chris. Have the same issue with my IE11, doesn't do it every time mind. I swap and use Chrome. Reminds me, must change my browser!

 

[chris murphy]

I think this is a browser / forum incompatibility related issue, often found on internet explorer, I use Chrome and do not have this problem.

Re the picture below, I assume clicking on insert image you get the window on the left without the additional tab that would take you to the window on the top right that allows direct insertion as you describe.

However if you click on go advanced in the bottom right of the reply box and click on attachments then you should be able to "add files" and then "insert inline" to get your pictures into the post.

View attachment 30196

"Hello again Richard",

Thank You very much for your reply to me.

Your description is exactly right - when I click onto `Insert image` I do only get the onscreen box on the left in your message and when I click on `Advanced` I don`t get anything at all related to Attachments or Add Files.

I have tried both Internet Explorer and Opera Browsers and get the same result using both - unfortunately I cannot run Google Chrome on my Computer - I have tried several times it just will not work - even the first Google Chrome `Welcome page`will not load after installing Chrome.

I know that Chrome is a good Browser - have it on a Laptop - but after at least 5 attempts to install and use it on my Desktop Computer I have had to give up.

I also had problems Uninstalling Chrome on the first two occasions using the Windows Uninstall facility - after the supposed Uninstalling my Computer did not work correctly - so much so that I had to get a Professional Uninstaller program [Revo] to get rid of MANY `Left over Files` [over 1000].

For those reasons I a not able to Download and install Google Chrome to use when accessing / writing on here.

I installed Opera ONLY because Internet Explorer 11 was not allowing me to type messages on here without really frustrating missed letters - having to go back and add letters to about every third word - sometimes EVERY word that I typed - this is still the case - used IE to type this message just to check that.

SO - It looks as if I will never again be able to Upload an Image or File and attach it to a message on here again - which is a pity as often `a picture saves a thousand words`.


Thanks again for trying to help me Richard - your description was especially clear because you were able to attach screenshots - what you described was what I used to be able to do on every occasion that I attached something to one of my messages - but not any more.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris. Have the same issue with my IE11, doesn't do it every time mind. I swap and use Chrome. Reminds me, must change my browser!

"Hello Midwest",

Thanks for your reply.

As I described in my reply to Richard Burns - above - I cannot use Google Chrome on my Desktop Computer.

Not only will it not `Run` after Downloading and Installing but I also messes up the Computer when Uninstalled - I had to get a Professional Uninstaller program [Revo] to get rid of over 1000 `Leftover Files` that were causing problems when I `Uninstalled` Chrome using the Windows Uninstall facility.

Thanks again for your message

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Post deleted by Chris


I tried to edit my message to Richard Burns but when I clicked onto `Save` the entire message was posted again here.

Internet Explorer problem again ?

Chris

 

[Midwest]

Yep, use another forum, don't get same issues. Pain in the bum.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello again Richard",

An update as You very kindly tried to help me with this problem:

I have just seen in my `Permissions` display - `You may NOT post attachments` - I am guessing that this is the reason why I cannot see the usual display to Upload images and Files from my Computer.

It did not occur to me to look for this before - "Sorry".


I will now have to contact a Moderator to ask why this would have been changed - as I mentioned I have previously Uploaded and Attached quite a few Images and Files to my messages.


Thanks again Richard for trying to help me with how to Upload / Attach Images / Files on here.

Regards,


Chris

 

[atm84]

So I contacted the heating engineer who services the boiler and asked if he could forward a copy of the cert including the flue gas test results. The next day he came round and re did the flue gas tests and filled out a cert for us. He did explain that it isn't mandatory to fill out a cert however he said it wasn't a problem to do one there and then.