Is this a C2 or C3

[pokrok]

Official Use ONLY

 

[MJPD29]

Hard to see but I would say c2 basic insulation outside of enclosure

 

[westward10]

What do you think.

 

[Dartlec]

Is that standard electrical tape? or self-amalgamating tape?

Assuming that the sheath has been removed beneath it, then it is not suitable as replacement insulation (despite the name), so the issue would be basic insulation visible outside of enclosure, which is usually a C2.

However, if this was up in the ceiling, and there were no metal parts that it might touch, I might well consider this a C3, as it's not accessible to touch...

Pretty much every new build in the last 20 years probably has this in every downlight though (usually without the tape).... unless they've since been replaced by someone with the time to do things properly....

 

[westward10]

The tape makes no difference it is not suitably enclosed.

 

[LukeD]

As it stands C2 . But the reality is there will be millions like this in the Uk !

 

[westward10]

As it stands C2 . But the reality is there will be millions like this in the Uk !

The UK is a C2 then?

 

[Dartlec]

The tape makes no difference it is not suitably enclosed.

Agreed - though if it was self amalgamating tape (that couldn't be removed without a tool), that would make things slightly different would it not? Looks more like tape I agree....

 

[Dartlec]

From BPG4:

(C2) Sheath of an insulated and sheathed nonarmoured cable not taken inside the enclosure of an accessory, such as at a socket-outlet or lighting switch, where the unsheathed cores are accessible to touch and/or likely to come into contact with metalwork. (Note: Code C3 would apply if the unsheathed cores are not accessible to touch nor likely to come into contact with metalwork)​

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[Dustydazzler]

Typical builders installation job, i guess atleast they joined the earths and didn’t just cut them off like 99.9999% of builders normally do

inspectors hat on C2

real work hat on C3 as it’s up in the ceiling void and under normal circumstances unlikely to ever be touched by anyone

 

[telectrix]

From BPG4:

(C2) Sheath of an insulated and sheathed nonarmoured cable not taken inside the enclosure of an accessory, such as at a socket-outlet or lighting switch, where the unsheathed cores are accessible to touch and/or likely to come into contact with metalwork. (Note: Code C3 would apply if the unsheathed cores are not accessible to touch nor likely to come into contact with metalwork)​

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so that makes it a C2 as shown in the OP's pic., but a C3 when shoved back in the ceiling? push it back up andvcharge £100 for remedial work.

 

[Dartlec]

so that makes it a C2 as shown in the OP's pic., but a C3 when shoved back in the ceiling?

Guess so! Though there is the argument that if the downlight itself is metal (and not earthed), then maybe it should be a C2 if either of the live conductors could touch it....

There is also this:

Unenclosed electrical connections, such as at luminaires. (Such a defect can contribute to a fire, particularly where extra-low voltage filament lamps are used)​

Which would mean always a C2 if the terminal blocks were outside the enclosure I guess....

I don't think I've ever seen a new build with downlights that aren't like this picture (minus the tape) though

 

[brianmoooore]

so that makes it a C2 as shown in the OP's pic., but a C3 when shoved back in the ceiling?

As above, unless the fitting should be earthed (and as appears to be the case, isn't), then back to C2.

 

[littlespark]

Not sure if it’s the same model of fitting, but the little black jointbox should be clipped to the metal plate sticking out to the left. This plate may also have a threaded hole that should take an earth terminal screw.

So by design, the fitting should have been earthed.... but isn’t. C2

Other fittings may be double insulated (look for a square within a square logo)
If so, then C3, basic insulation outside enclosure.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Isn’t basic insulation outside of the box a C2 , potentially dangerous as their is not mechanical protection on the single cables

 

[littlespark]

Isn’t basic insulation outside of the box a C2 , potentially dangerous as their is not mechanical protection on the single cables

Give me a break, have you seen the time?

yes.... it’s also a C2. Unwrap the tape and see how much basic insulation is showing.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Give me a break, have you seen the time?

yes.... it’s also a C2. Unwrap the tape and see how much basic insulation is showing.

I wouldn’t spend 2 mins trying to peel off the tape, just Cut off builders tape bodge job, reterminate both twin n earth into a choc box and take 6 inches of flex to light fitting and connect properly

(yes it’s early

 

[HappyHippyDad]

As westward asked, what do you think @pokrok ?

 

[Intoelectrics]

Looks like a bit of plaster has popped off, that once covered the screw head on the plasterboard above the doorway.

 

[pokrok]

The guy that did my EICR report said he was an EICR inspector who also trained other inspectors. He said he was going to class it as a C2 as the cables should have been enclosed in a coffin box, he never mentioned anything about the earthing

 

[Dustydazzler]

The guy that did my EICR report said he was an EICR inspector who also trained other inspectors. He said he was going to class it as a C2 as the cables should have been enclosed in a coffin box, he never mentioned anything about the earthing

The only person I know who uses this term is Delroy the Sparks

 

[brianmoooore]

Yes, the cables should be in the box, but the whole thing is in the ceiling void (assuming not a loft above), so there is no potential danger. Hence C3.
If the fitting needs an earth, and isn't, then it's C2, because there is potential danger from the exposed part of the fitting.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Imo bare insulation outside the junction box should always be a C2 regardless if it’s in a loft or void or whatever. It’s rough and shoddy builders wiring.

c3 (observation) should only be for things like missing sleeve off strappers , missing labels on consumer unit etc.

 

[westward10]

Regulations require suitable enclosures for terminations and does not differentiate between accessible and not readily accessible, this is not relevant. Enclosures also add some level of fire protection.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Not to mention, as a trade we should be raising the standard and not just simply except shoddy builders wiring as ‘standard practic’ these days

there must literally be millions of lights connected this way on brand new builds , shoddy tape and connector block joints all over the gaff. Rough as a badgers.
C2, rip them out and re’do them properly

 

[Intoelectrics]

Not to mention, as a trade we should be raising the standard and not just simply except shoddy builders wiring as ‘standard practic’ these days

there must literally be millions of lights connected this way on brand new builds , shoddy tape and connector block joints all over the gaff. Rough as a badgers.
C2, rip them out and re’do them properly

Dead right! It's been incorrectly terminated by not using a suitable enclosure.

 

[pokrok]

Not sure if it’s the same model of fitting, but the little black jointbox should be clipped to the metal plate sticking out to the left. This plate may also have a threaded hole that should take an earth terminal screw.

So by design, the fitting should have been earthed.... but isn’t. C2

Other fittings may be double insulated (look for a square within a square logo)
If so, then C3, basic insulation outside enclosure.

These light fittings do have a sticker on the side with a box within a box

 

[littlespark]

These light fittings do have a sticker on the side with a box within a box

Well that suggests the fitting doesn’t need an earth, but by the regs, the circuit needs a continual earth wire to the end in case someone changes a fitting at some point to one that needs it.

I think the only problem now is the basic insulation outside the enclosure.

That little joint box came with the fitting, and I would presume has enough space to terminate the cables properly, with the outer sheath clamped when the lid is closed. Too much faff for your average builder, but it should be possible.
Failing that, I like to give myself more space by either using a click flow plug and socket, or a WAGO box lite that gives enough space and throw away that little black box.