Labour Manifesto

[DPG]

Yawn. Vote. Etc. Sturgeon. Boring. Repetitive.

 

[baldelectrician]

Not everyone who voted SNP wants to leave the UK.

Yep,I agree- lets settle it with a referendum as circumstances have changed.

Brexit was a on the cards before the Indyref.
Yes it was mentioned but seemed unrealistic.
Even Ruth Davidson said do in a TV debate

Promoters of Indyref2 are banging on about it incessantly in the hope of getting their own way at a time when nearly everyone is disillusioned with politics. Traditionally a time when people vote for odd things.
Sorry- the SNP want independence (many people are also surprised to know that bears $hit in the woods as well)

We had a referendum and we voted to stay in the UK.
Yep and we were told a pack of lies in the VOW (near federalism as possible), we ended up getting full control of road signs, 15% of welfare benefits - the ATOS ran pile of poo, and control of income tax - earned income only.

For me that's enough time and effort wasted on it for now.
I disagree, we need more powers- it is notable that every time support for independence seems to rise the 'federalism' stories appear.
All we need is Gordon Brown out of his crypt to tell us how lucky we are

Perhaps the politicians we elected should spend their time and effort dealing with the clear social problems we have in Scotland and less time blaming someone else.
The Scottish Government have done better than the UK government see the post on poverty (already posted earlier) below.

Scotland is ran better and the SNP have got on with the day job
Thousands of council houses (over 1400 in my local authority alone),
NHS procurement Scotland -the Scottish Government require health boards to work together (unlike the NHS video earlier of things in other parts of the UK)
Keeping the nurses bursary
Scottish Futures Trust - remember as we are beholden to UK procurement rules we MUST use PFI (and it's problems), the Scottish Government set up Scottish Futures Trust - a SG owned and managed PFI -Lite organisation to cap excess costs and return profits back to the Scottish Government.

The problem is the Scottish Government are better at running things than Westminster and people fail to notice the better infrastructure (such as broadband roll out)

Scotland Pick BT for Part of £600m Superfast Broadband Rollout

The Scottish Government today announced that BT is their ONLY bidder for two of the three areas under the new £600m R100 (Reaching 100%) project, which origina

www.ispreview.co.uk

 

[ferg]

So to sum up.. You didn't get your own way and you will keep banging on about it until you do?
Fair enough. It's good to be passionate about something.

If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.

Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.

Presumably that's Westminsters fault though.

If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.

I won't hold my breath though.

 

[baldelectrician]

So to sum up.. You didn't get your own way and you will keep banging on about it until you do?
It's all about democracy- we have a Scottish Parliament and it should decide our future, its not about 'banging on' it's about Scots electing MSP's and these same MSP's expressing the will of these Scots in a proportional type system.
No, I want independence for Scotland, and I know that the moment the SNP are a means to an end.
Once we get independence the SNP will be out on their ear and we can vote for a Scottish Government to run our affairs and kick them out if we don't like them.
At the moment we vote Labour / SNP and get Tory.

If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.
They are doing better than the lot in Westminster by a country mile but if they fail we can kick them out.

Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.
I know, this is a failing. it is not only Westminsters fault although if the Scottish budget had not been cut by £1.5 bn per year things might be better.

If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.
They are trying- there are police officers in most secondary schools full time and there is also a plan to put mental health nurses / therapists in to schools to help treat issues before they become a problem
You need to accept that a large driver of depression and mental illness is poverty and austerity is a Westminster driven issue and not a necessity.
If you have no money to feed and heat a home then mental problems will surface and worsen

 

[Midwest]

Lies, downright lies, then statistics. Here’s another one of those maps.

 

[Zerax]

We don't want 'special' treatment just equal treatment

Well... that one is easily solved... can you give back to England the 9.4 BILLION a year extra that we give to Scotland ? That would help to make things more equal.

 

[Midwest]

I’m not making the argument, but I’ve always wondered why England doesn’t have its own Parliament like the other UK countries?

 

[Zerax]

I’m not making the argument, but I’ve always wondered why England doesn’t have its own Parliament like the other UK countries?

And... thinking about it... surely the whole of the UK should have a vote on Scottish independence and the breaking up of the union ?

 

[electric al]

Are you Nicola sturgeon in disguise bald ? Should the SNP ever get what they wish for they would very quickly have to find another axe to grind in order to mask the disappointment. The snp are a pressure group more than a political movement. Alex Salmond the founder has created division and exploited nationalism to further his own agenda . The Scots are a very proud people and many see it for what it is .

 

[JK-Electrical]

And... thinking about it... surely the whole of the UK should have a vote on Scottish independence and the breaking up of the union ?

The West Lothian question:

West Lothian question - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question

 

[rapparee]

And... thinking about it... surely the whole of the UK should have a vote on Scottish independence and the breaking up of the union ?

Should the whole of Europe have a vote on Brexit?
Its the same principle.

 

[electric al]

It wouldn't have been a bad idea tbh because we would have been out a lot sooner . Europe wanted our contribution but not necessarily the uk .

 

[Darkwood]

At our Scottish friends,

There seems to be total confusion regarding the EU membership here, the SNP are in a catch 22 and always have been, if Scotland were to become independent then they cannot remain a member of the EU, this was applicable in 2014 and still is today (even if Brexit wasn't a factor), they would have to reapply yet they fail to meet the essential criteria to be allowed entry.
This is why the Scottish independence ref'1 was lost mainly because of what key players in Europe had made clear - Mr Van Rompuy, Mr Barosso and Mr Juncker all clearly stated that if Scotland went independent they would have to reapply through the the normal process, if this was to occur then any deal would be much less favourable than the ones they enjoy as part of the UK, also Barroso clearly stated Scotland rejoining the EU would be 'extremely difficult' - this was a reflection on their current economic status and GDP levels.

The SNP are playing a divisive game by claiming it is in fact the UK and Brexit is dragging them out of the EU against their will, it is the fact that the goal of the SNP would itself take them out of the EU with a very steep hill to climb to rejoin and that is also considering it would be a far less beneficial agreement (hope you like the impending acceptance of the Euro down that road).

The SNP are simply like UKIP - a one goal party but unlike UKIP the SNP's destination would cause an outcome they claim to stand against, the irony here is overwhelming and why trying to rally support by claiming that the UK is dragging them out of the EU is gross hypocrisy.

As I said earlier, now brexit is a definite there is no real option for the SNP - all paths lead to coming out of the EU what isn't true is Brexit alone is to blame, and independent Scotland would trigger the same outcome.

Here is a snippet of news from 2014 and where the EU clearly stood on an Independent Scotland - Juncker will respect Scottish result - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28231347

 

[baldelectrician]

At our Scottish friends,

There seems to be total confusion regarding the EU membership here, the SNP are in a catch 22 and always have been, if Scotland were to become independent then they cannot remain a member of the EU, this was applicable in 2014 and still is today (even if Brexit wasn't a factor), they would have to reapply yet they fail to meet the essential criteria to be allowed entry.
This is why the Scottish independence ref'1 was lost mainly because of what key players in Europe had made clear - Mr Van Rompuy, Mr Barosso and Mr Juncker all clearly stated that if Scotland went independent they would have to reapply through the the normal process, if this was to occur then any deal would be much less favourable than the ones they enjoy as part of the UK, also Barroso clearly stated Scotland rejoining the EU would be 'extremely difficult' - this was a reflection on their current economic status and GDP levels.

The SNP are playing a divisive game by claiming it is in fact the UK and Brexit is dragging them out of the EU against their will, it is the fact that the goal of the SNP would itself take them out of the EU with a very steep hill to climb to rejoin and that is also considering it would be a far less beneficial agreement (hope you like the impending acceptance of the Euro down that road).

The SNP are simply like UKIP - a one goal party but unlike UKIP the SNP's destination would cause an outcome they claim to stand against, the irony here is overwhelming and why trying to rally support by claiming that the UK is dragging them out of the EU is gross hypocrisy.

As I said earlier, now brexit is a definite there is no real option for the SNP - all paths lead to coming out of the EU what isn't true is Brexit alone is to blame, and independent Scotland would trigger the same outcome.

Here is a snippet of news from 2014 and where the EU clearly stood on an Independent Scotland - Juncker will respect Scottish result - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28231347

I am of the opinion that things will change next year

Wait until the start of February and see what happens, the UK is still a EU member. After 1st February the UK will no longer be so

 

[Midwest]

At our Scottish friends,

There seems to be total confusion regarding the EU membership here, the SNP are in a catch 22 and always have been, if Scotland were to become independent then they cannot remain a member of the EU, this was applicable in 2014 and still is today (even if Brexit wasn't a factor), they would have to reapply yet they fail to meet the essential criteria to be allowed entry.
This is why the Scottish independence ref'1 was lost mainly because of what key players in Europe had made clear - Mr Van Rompuy, Mr Barosso and Mr Juncker all clearly stated that if Scotland went independent they would have to reapply through the the normal process, if this was to occur then any deal would be much less favourable than the ones they enjoy as part of the UK, also Barroso clearly stated Scotland rejoining the EU would be 'extremely difficult' - this was a reflection on their current economic status and GDP levels.

The SNP are playing a divisive game by claiming it is in fact the UK and Brexit is dragging them out of the EU against their will, it is the fact that the goal of the SNP would itself take them out of the EU with a very steep hill to climb to rejoin and that is also considering it would be a far less beneficial agreement (hope you like the impending acceptance of the Euro down that road).

The SNP are simply like UKIP - a one goal party but unlike UKIP the SNP's destination would cause an outcome they claim to stand against, the irony here is overwhelming and why trying to rally support by claiming that the UK is dragging them out of the EU is gross hypocrisy.

As I said earlier, now brexit is a definite there is no real option for the SNP - all paths lead to coming out of the EU what isn't true is Brexit alone is to blame, and independent Scotland would trigger the same outcome.

Here is a snippet of news from 2014 and where the EU clearly stood on an Independent Scotland - Juncker will respect Scottish result - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28231347

Depends on which political rag you read, as to what Junckers thoughts are on an independent Scotland re-joining the EU. I can see it being vetoed by Spain, as they have the issue with Catalonia. That said there are a line of candidates wishing to join the EU, all on hold with 'issues'.

Truth is, like Brexit, the only way an independent Scotland will know, is have its indy2 and then ask to remain. Then it will know if it has to make an applicantion to the EU.

But Scotland hasn't the time left now, to do that.

 

[Baddegg]

Guess they will have to go on the first referendum results then...

 

[Midwest]

I can see their frustrations though, the SNP’ers. They don’t want to leave the EU, but want to leave the UK. It’s a double whammy for them, ‘cos they’re not going to get either, in the short term at least.

 

[Darkwood]

The point to my post was the hypocritical position the SNP is in, they are playing mind games by trying to suggest the EU referendum vote is dragging them out of the EU against their will, while sitting and pushing an ideology that will achieve exactly the same.
This is why they cannot use it as a mandate for a second indy vote, also the fact in 2014 they used the possibility of the UK leaving the EU in their campaign and still lost, this strengthens my point.

Regarding the EU changing its position, why would they though, the UK is leaving and with that one of their largest financial contributors to the EU coffers, there are minimum requirements to join the EU mainly to ensure you are not a long term financial burden, Scotland has a massive deficit and comes no where near meeting this and given they have even less money now as well as major EU economies on the brink of recession like Germany then they have little incentive to give Scotland exception while other nations you mention still need to meet the requirements.

I will also throw another elephant into the room, lets say Scotland goes independent, they are going to have turn their economy around, catch up on their debts a bit and do all this while losing a massive chunk of money that the UK has been propping them up with for 30yrs, if they cannot turn their economy with the UK heavily supporting them, how do we see the future when that money stops flowing, the only silver lining here is they will probably get their fishing grounds back in the next few years and see that industry boom the irony been because we are out of the EU.

 

[Midwest]

Since this thread went this way, I've read of all sorts of facts & figures about how much is Scotland's GDP, how much the UK gives in grants or whatever the term is and how much the UK is Scotland's biggest receiver of goods, how much Scotland makes or not on oil revenue, fishers etc etc.

But they are all wildly differing in viewpoint, depending on the source of that information. So again, bit like Brexit, no one truly knows what would happen, until it happens.

 

[baldelectrician]

The numbers in the GERS figures are Jackanory fairy take ones.

The fact remains there are questions such as
Why are a Conservative Government so intent on keeping a partner they see as a financial drain.

This from 1921 - before oil

And more detail:

I smell fertiliser.
If Scots were really draining the UK and placing them in the financial soup then Westminster would drop Scotland like a hot potato

Remember if Boris let Scotland go this- and his boundary changes would make Westminster have an almost permanent conservative majority