MCS Quality Management System

[Markc]

Your last post does now make more sense. It's not how I first thought that you can use an existing system. It is still up to the assessed company to provide proof from first contact to completion that they were the installing company, all be it via sub contracted labour on certain aspects. So on that first job it would be a case of not only ensuring faith from the client to the contractor that they will achieve MCS but also fund sub contracted labour for the installation.

If however it isn't the case I don't understand how you can possibly use someone else's installation to gain MCS like you said in an earlier post? Am I correct is assuming if you know of an installer who is MCS you could contact them to ask if you can use their installation as an example of works for you to achieve MCS rather than having the expense of installing a system yourself? If that is correct it is that, that sticks in the throat a bit.

Thanks for the last post Treadwarm

 

[SolarCity]

Don't worry, I won't shoot the messenger

I don't agree that the QMS equals customer satisfaction. I don't agree that it helps small businesses in any way either.

So if the MCS scheme does not consider technical ability (it cannot, unless it judges an installation) then it is useless.

For example, I have worked with plenty of sparks who are 17th Edition but does this mean they are good sparks? Of course not. If it did then we could do away with the NICEIC, ECA and NAPIT.

 

[Treadwarm]

The question is how would the assesor know if you have used somebody elses installation ??? Impossible for them to check, but they can asses that you understand all the areas of the standard and test you on this during your assesment.

In reality if you adopt an mcs standard qms then your company will operate to a high standard for documentation ( see easy mcs in Chester ) and the procedures will en-sure you know how to work.

Only during your annual audit when they pick your installations at random to asses could they check if you are installing to the correct standard. Furthur more if a client feels your installation is poor they can report you to REAL who could arrange an audit.

Put it this way you could be the best spark in the world with the highest standard qms but you don't have the cash to pay for the products to put them on your own house, or find anybody to take a punt on someone who is not mcs accredited.

Sorry to say it guys but yes, you can get mcs from an existing installation I know because I have done it myself.

U do need a good quality management system and easy mcs seem to be the best for this!!

 

[Markc]

Hi Treadwarm, Is it PV you have achieved MCS on for the three companies you mentioned earlier? The reason for asking is, is there an avenue for someone with a PV system to recoup some of the cost by "letting out" their own system? As they say if you can't beat them join them!

 

[SolarCity]

The question is how would the assesor know if you have used somebody elses installation ??? Impossible for them to check, but they can asses that you understand all the areas of the standard and test you on this during your assesment.

Could this not be said about a lot of assessments? If you use someone elses work as your own to achieve NICEIC accreditation then you are guilty of fraud.

In reality if you adopt an mcs standard qms then your company will operate to a high standard for documentation ( see easy mcs in Chester ) and the procedures will en-sure you know how to work.

It seems to me, and I could well be wrong, that companies are being led by the hand through the QMS process. They may well end up with a high standard document at the end but there is nothing stopping cowboy outfits from getting involved if what you say is correct. That cannot possibly be right.

 

[MorganPVI]

Passing off someone elses work as your own would be fraud, using a sub contractor to install for you would be 'technically' fine. I think it depends how your business is setup, some companies will have employees, some will use CIS labour as required, others will be what I term "salesman with an MCS umbrella".
Pretty sure we'll see a lot of salesmen selling systems this coming year.

No offence to you Treadwarm but you do seem to be very vocal about easy mcs, imo you can never really fully understand a complex quality management system unless you write it yourself. I'd certainly not want a company fitting panels on my roof that have never installed a system for accreditation, no matter what the MCS assesor approves.

 

[Treadwarm]

Hi Treadwarm, Is it PV you have achieved MCS on for the three companies you mentioned earlier? The reason for asking is, is there an avenue for someone with a PV system to recoup some of the cost by "letting out" their own system? As they say if you can't beat them join them!

I passed with Heat pumps for a company in Doncaster, and for my current company (Treadwarm) then PV and Solar thermal for a company in North Wales.

Not heard of anybody doing this but it may be an option.

 

[Markc]

I passed with Heat pumps for a company in Doncaster, and for my current company (Treadwarm) then PV and Solar thermal for a company in North Wales.

Yet one week ago........

I am just looking at getting my MCS in place for PV but do not have the time or knowledge to create a QMS, I have heard of a company called easymcs Cost & Pain Free MCS Installer Accreditation & Certification

they seem to produce a QMS bespoke for your company and mentor you through the process. I have spoken to a few people and these guys seem to be the biggest in the market at the moment, do you know much if anything about them? they have said the cost is £495 which when you consider a course is generally £150 and then a day not installing is another £250 + i would still have to build it with most of these seminars i think it is a good deal?

They have also offered a £50 discount to mcs assessment with NIC EIC do you know if this is legitimate?

I'm trully sorry Threadwarm but I think it may be time to come clean. A very cunning marketing scheme you have in place there. Easy MCS will be pleased. I like the plan and I have been following the posts with interest.

With the greatest if respect Mark C.

 

[Treadwarm]

to be honest I was simple asked how did you get around needing to show and installation without anybody letting you on the roof without MCS.

If you can prove you have the knowledge and been on the necessary training, your assessment is then a test of your capability via a series of questions for you to answer (do we agree on this) . before you answer ask yourself how you can gain part p ( 3 day course, £300) this includes a practical exam on a training rig. how do you gain 17th edition (5 day course £500 - £700) including a practical on a training rig and written exam. both come with annual assessments.

MCS is no different but everyone seems to want to make it more difficult, your mcs assessment is more in-depth than the other you have been on because they want to en-sure you are not only capable of designing the system but also dealing with the customer correclty from a document point of view.

I think that in this forum MCS is being confused, it seems that it is thought of as a mark on your quality of INSTALLATION capability, if so then why would you require the other electrical certification ??? Answer you have part p ,17th and working at heights for for this, MCS is to ensure you run your business correctly if you then want to do PV you must have 17th or heat pump G3 etc. you will be assessed on these separately in some cases by the same CB (certification body)

This is why the majority of MCS assessors are ex-ISO assessors and the reason your QMS must be of a high standard, and include proof of your capabilities as an electrical engineer to carry out your work.

Also the reason why I recommend Easy MCS other than the fact I have had my QMS from them and worked with them to understand the needs of the installer, is due to the fact that they actually mentor you through the introduction of your QMS as well as supplying you with the pack. Some companies do just supply you with a bundle of docs and say crack on, Easy MCS definitely do not.

Once again guys this is not meant as a cheat for MCS but as assistance in understanding the true meaning behind MCS. Trust me I do know the standards, and also people on the MCS steering group so please any help I can be just ask.

 

[Treadwarm]

Yet one week ago........



I'm trully sorry Threadwarm but I think it may be time to come clean. A very cunning marketing scheme you have in place there. Easy MCS will be pleased. I like the plan and I have been following the posts with interest.

With the greatest if respect Mark C.

Yes Mark fair point I did advise i would recommend them on the forum to gain some interest for them, in all fairness they did do me a deal on my QMS but I would not be on here promoting them if the service was crap. I do know some of the people at easy MCS but i can assure you they are well worth speaking to when looking to gain mcs.

I hope i am not being seen as a cheats way to gain mcs as i only came on here to give help rather and advise people on gaining mcs and that it is not as difficult or costly as everybody makes out.

 

[Markc]

Am not in anyway doubting your knowledge on MCS, it's been enlightening all be it not all pleasing. After the explanation the waters have cleared and all be it not entirely happy with the fact we will have to learn to live with it. Anyway its not like we aren't used to it, is it?

From a customers point of view MCS is seen as a reassurance of ability not as a paperwork exercise. MCS is the bench mark the customer is looking for. Not one of our clients has asked about Part P, 17th or even if we are qualified! All they seem interested in is "are you MCS"

I agree not everyone could achieve MCS, but there again there is a reason for this. If you're unable to achieve MCS then I would suggest you can't do the job. Harsh may be but that's my opinion. MCS is the method to keep the cowboys out yet it seems that, that may well be undermined and that's the problem.

 

[Markc]

Yes Mark fair point I did advise i would recommend them on the forum to gain some interest for them, in all fairness they did do me a deal on my QMS but I would not be on here promoting them if the service was crap. I do know some of the people at easy MCS but i can assure you they are well worth speaking to when looking to gain mcs.

I hope i am not being seen as a cheats way to gain mcs as i only came on here to give help rather and advise people on gaining mcs and that it is not as difficult or costly as everybody makes out.

Threadwarm, You're no cheat and no offence taken but please don't take us as fools either. If I knew of a company in place at the time I wrote our QMS I think I may well of contacted them. I'm sure they do a very good job and worth the money (No I'm not on commission!) but as ours in now in place it is very simple to keep updated. Please don't stop posting, you obviously know your MCS and that is worth a lot on here and I think I can speak for everyone both achieving MCS and those who have achieved MCS that having a "insider" so to speak is very valuable.

Again no offence and with the warmest of regards

Mark C

 

[Treadwarm]

Threadwarm, You're no cheat and no offence taken but please don't take us as fools either. If I knew of a company in place at the time I wrote our QMS I think I may well of contacted them. I'm sure they do a very good job and worth the money (No I'm not on commission!) but as ours in now in place it is very simple to keep updated. Please don't stop posting, you obviously know your MCS and that is worth a lot on here and I think I can speak for everyone both achieving MCS and those who have achieved MCS that having a "insider" so to speak is very valuable.

Again no offence and with the warmest of regards

Mark C

Thanks Mark,

I take on board what you say and anything i can do to help please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[Markc]

you do not need to physically do an installation you can use an existing as long as you show you understand the installation.

If you are honest do you real think the physical installation of a PV system is any that difficult for a competent electrical engineer ????

The physical installation is not difficult for a competent electrical engineer but there again you said the magic word "competent" The prove of competence isn't just Part P and 17th, Work at height and man hand. So now the remainder of the requirements is down to a company who doesn't install.

I see it as a short cut into a market without the time, effort or investment. The issue is NOT using sub contracted labour for any aspect of the works, after all a scaffolder is a sub contractor and I wouldn't think twice about instructing one over us doing it but there again that's not strictly part of the installation. The issue is being able to use a system that hasn't in anyway shape or form been anything to do the the company being assessed. A third party installation. A system installed by an accredited MCS installer and a system that has in no way had anything to do with the company being assessed. Which would also mean the documented evidence to achieve MCS will be bogus and fraudulent. It is that aspect that sticks in the throat not the sub contracted labour.

 

[Treadwarm]

The physical installation is not difficult for a competent electrical engineer but there again you said the magic word "competent" The prove of competence isn't just Part P and 17th, Work at height and man hand. So now the remainder of the requirements is down to a company who doesn't install.

I see it as a short cut into a market without the time, effort or investment. The issue is NOT using sub contracted labour for any aspect of the works, after all a scaffolder is a sub contractor and I wouldn't think twice about instructing one over us doing it but there again that's not strictly part of the installation. The issue is being able to use a system that hasn't in anyway shape or form been anything to do the the company being assessed. A third party installation. A system installed by an accredited MCS installer and a system that has in no way had anything to do with the company being assessed. Which would also mean the documented evidence to achieve MCS will be bogus and fraudulent. It is that aspect that sticks in the throat not the sub contracted labour.

Mark I total agree but this is a bit of a floor with MCS and i have used a slightly different reasoning below, what are your thoughts on this.

You are an electrical engineer with 10 years on site experience and you have installed every different type of standard electrical domestic and commercial system and one of your client comes to you to fit his new PV system but he asks do you have MCS. So you read up on it and you know you have your 17th and part P and you put yourself on the necessary course's to ensure you fully understand how to design and calculate the system.

You now have all this in place but your customer wont let you on his house because you do not have MCS but you know without a doubt that you could do it with your hands behind you back. But you do not have an installation to show to complete your assesment

Should the fact that you don't have £5k in the bank to buy a PV system and put it on you house mean that you should not be allowed to get into MCS???? or is it such a bad thing that a mate of yours lets you use his installation which you walk around pointing out any areas required by the assessor e.g labelling isolation etc. And you have at this point shown your 17th certificate along with you manual handling and working at heights and you have been signed of under test conditions that you can do the electrical work during your 17th edition assessment.

I completely agree that using someone else's installation is morally wrong but it is a possibility that people will be forced into especially as the requirement to take a punt on someone who is not MCS accredited becomes less and less. I would much prefer the steering group behind MCS to introduce a UKAS accredited testing facility based solely on the installation with manufactured fault to rectify and on site common issue that will occur from time to time (replacing tiles etc) to ensure competency

This is the only way the number of MCS accredited PV installers will grow in my opinion.

As always your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[SolarCity]

My concern here, and I'm sure I'm not alone, is that a lot of us saw the MCS accreditation process as a bit of a pain. However, we get some comfort in the thought that it would keep out a lot of the crap installers.

However, with the new fast-n-easy companies offering QMS documents in exchange for cash AND the revelation that an MCS accredited installer need not have ever installed a system of his own, the route for a cowboy installer is cheap and easy.

Is it unfair that someone that has the relevant training cannot get MCS because he cannot afford to fit a system on his own house? Maybe. But this is business. Have you ever needed something for your business that you couldn't afford?

Once again, I'm not shooting the messenger here and I do appreciate Treadwarm's input. My frustration is with the MCS setup itself. If what I am reading is correct, and at the moment I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should be considered a national embarassment.

 

[Markc]

My frustration is with the MCS setup itself. If what I am reading is correct, and at the moment I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should be considered a national embarassment.

Here, here!

 

[Markc]

Mark I total agree but this is a bit of a floor with MCS and i have used a slightly different reasoning below, what are your thoughts on this.

You are an electrical engineer with 10 years on site experience and you have installed every different type of standard electrical domestic and commercial system and one of your client comes to you to fit his new PV system but he asks do you have MCS. So you read up on it and you know you have your 17th and part P and you put yourself on the necessary course's to ensure you fully understand how to design and calculate the system.

You now have all this in place but your customer wont let you on his house because you do not have MCS but you know without a doubt that you could do it with your hands behind you back. But you do not have an installation to show to complete your assesment

Should the fact that you don't have £5k in the bank to buy a PV system and put it on you house mean that you should not be allowed to get into MCS???? or is it such a bad thing that a mate of yours lets you use his installation which you walk around pointing out any areas required by the assessor e.g labelling isolation etc. And you have at this point shown your 17th certificate along with you manual handling and working at heights and you have been signed of under test conditions that you can do the electrical work during your 17th edition assessment.

I completely agree that using someone else's installation is morally wrong but it is a possibility that people will be forced into especially as the requirement to take a punt on someone who is not MCS accredited becomes less and less. I would much prefer the steering group behind MCS to introduce a UKAS accredited testing facility based solely on the installation with manufactured fault to rectify and on site common issue that will occur from time to time (replacing tiles etc) to ensure competency

This is the only way the number of MCS accredited PV installers will grow in my opinion.

As always your thoughts are appreciated.

Isn't that scenario exactly what we have done to achieve MCS? We've been there done that. Consider what we went through on our first port of call to a potential customer. If it wasn't for us taking what is a huge financial gamble, and trust me I don't run a multi million pound company, as a two man band we wouldn't be where we are today. Our financial outlay is as simple as make or break. The saying speculate to accumulate has never been truer here.

No matter what the purpose of MCS it is seen as a level of competence which also includes installation. If it didn't why inspect an installation on assessment? In my opinion there's no difference in MCS, to Part P, to being NICEIC or alike. Consider if we allowed someone else to use one of our rewires to achieve Part P. I think it would be considered as fraud in my opinion and possible life threatening! You can not confirm the third party is fully aware of all the requirements unless you can witness and inspect what has been done. I kow alot of people who have reams of paper and certificates to show what they are qualified in but when it comes to putting it into practice their as much good as ----- on a fish!! No matter what the advantage the assessed company can not provide evidence of a correct installation so the scenario is with the first customer no different. "Have you actually installed a system?" NO!

The other consideration to the "if they don't have the funds to install to their own property" is it would also be unlikely to have the funds to finance the first commercial installation also. Not many PV suppliers I know of offer credit to newly established installers.

I know the actual installation process isn't taxing but neither is it a job anyone can do. There is a high element of competence required in several fields and trust me when I say I've seen the good the bad and the ugly! By approving companies who have never installed this will increase and like a lot of schemes MCS will lose its importance as it has in other industries.

As a MCS accredited company I find the circumstances allowing people to achieve MCS without even taking any tools off the van totally outrageous. Using sub contracted labour is not the issue. I think this debate will run and run until such time either MCS stands back and agree the system requires improvement or the entire scheme ends up in the scrap bin. The only end result being a lot of companies who have invested in the industry being left out of pocket.

One final question. On one of these "borrowed" installations used for inspection, was the MCS assessor fully aware of the fact that the installation was not conducted by the assessed company and that the system is in no way prove of their ability to conduct an installation?

 

[Markc]

Straight off the MCS website:

The MCS is an internationally recognised quality assurance scheme which demonstrates to your customers that your company is committed to meeting rigorous and tested standards. It was designed with input from installer and product representatives. Similar to the Gas Safe Register, the MCS gives you a mark of competency and demonstrates to your customers that you can install to the highest quality every time.

Installer certification entails assessing the supply, design, installation, set-to-work and commissioning of renewable microgeneration technologies.

Consider the Gas Safe register. Allowing an company to achieve Gas Safe with out conducting a gas installation. That would be questioned I'm sure.

 

[SolarCity]

Either the MCS website and most of it's documentation needs rewriting or there's something wrong here.

I don't agree that just anyone can fit a PV system. It's a dangerous job - both to customer AND installer. You don't just compromise on things like this just because someone can't afford to prove they can do the work.

 

[Treadwarm]

Isn't that scenario exactly what we have done to achieve MCS? We've been there done that. Consider what we went through on our first port of call to a potential customer. If it wasn't for us taking what is a huge financial gamble, and trust me I don't run a multi million pound company, as a two man band we wouldn't be where we are today. Our financial outlay is as simple as make or break. The saying speculate to accumulate has never been truer here.

No matter what the purpose of MCS it is seen as a level of competence which also includes installation. If it didn't why inspect an installation on assessment? In my opinion there's no difference in MCS, to Part P, to being NICEIC or alike. Consider if we allowed someone else to use one of our rewires to achieve Part P. I think it would be considered as fraud in my opinion and possible life threatening! You can not confirm the third party is fully aware of all the requirements unless you can witness and inspect what has been done. I kow alot of people who have reams of paper and certificates to show what they are qualified in but when it comes to putting it into practice their as much good as ----- on a fish!! No matter what the advantage the assessed company can not provide evidence of a correct installation so the scenario is with the first customer no different. "Have you actually installed a system?" NO!

The other consideration to the "if they don't have the funds to install to their own property" is it would also be unlikely to have the funds to finance the first commercial installation also. Not many PV suppliers I know of offer credit to newly established installers.

I know the actual installation process isn't taxing but neither is it a job anyone can do. There is a high element of competence required in several fields and trust me when I say I've seen the good the bad and the ugly! By approving companies who have never installed this will increase and like a lot of schemes MCS will lose its importance as it has in other industries.

As a MCS accredited company I find the circumstances allowing people to achieve MCS without even taking any tools off the van totally outrageous. Using sub contracted labour is not the issue. I think this debate will run and run until such time either MCS stands back and agree the system requires improvement or the entire scheme ends up in the scrap bin. The only end result being a lot of companies who have invested in the industry being left out of pocket.

One final question. On one of these "borrowed" installations used for inspection, was the MCS assessor fully aware of the fact that the installation was not conducted by the assessed company and that the system is in no way prove of their ability to conduct an installation?

I have never been asked during an inspection did you actually fit this installation. and I do not know of a way they could check other than watching me fit it.

 

[Treadwarm]

Either the MCS website and most of it's documentation needs rewriting or there's something wrong here.

I don't agree that just anyone can fit a PV system. It's a dangerous job - both to customer AND installer. You don't just compromise on things like this just because someone can't afford to prove they can do the work.

I don't think anybody has said that just anybody can fit a PV system when connecting into the grid, This is proven by having to carry the necessary certification from NIC EIC for electrical competence (without this you wont get MCS).

But you CAN and this is 100% gain MCS by using a sub contractor who carries the NIC EIC certification for electrical competence as long as you have been on a PV training course (3days / £300).

I think they need to decide if the MCS scheme is a paperwork / design certification with similar controls to ISO9001 or it is an installation standard and if so the installation inspection needs to be in a controlled environment.

My opinion is that MCS should cover both the documentation and installation, so a working a QMS to ISO9001 standard with specific reference to the practical installation of your chosen technology. This should be backed up by an in house installation service that is trained and assessed in a similar fashion to current electrical or plumbing assessments on a rig in a training facility with faults for the installers to spot and rectify.

What are your thoughts on this???

 

[SolarCity]

I think the MCS should run just like the NICEIC - or at least like the NICEIC should be. Wearing the logo should be a badge of quality, not just a receipt for £400 which is what it is now.

 

[Markc]

I have never been asked during an inspection did you actually fit this installation. and I do not know of a way they could check other than watching me fit it.

So I can also take it that the information was not volunteered to the inspector either? I think possibly the only way to get this to bed will be to ask the MCS direct: "Can an existing installation that has been installed by another contractor be used for my assessment?"

 

[Markc]

I completely agree that using someone else's installation is morally wrong but it is a possibility that people will be forced into especially as the requirement to take a punt on someone who is not MCS accredited becomes less and less. I would much prefer the steering group behind MCS to introduce a UKAS accredited testing facility based solely on the installation with manufactured fault to rectify and on site common issue that will occur from time to time (replacing tiles etc) to ensure competency

All accredited Certification Bodies will have been accredited by UKAS under EN45011 to undertake certification assessments under the MCS - So taken this on board it has to up to the certification body, NIC, Napit etc to confirm compliance. I can only state NICEIC rules on this as that's our certification body but I would expect all bodies to be working off the same sheet:


1.16 Installation Company means an organisation that is responsible for all of the following
activities: supply, design or design review, installation set to work and commissioning
microgeneration systems and technologies.
1.17 Installation Work means the design, construction, inspection, testing and/or maintenance of work
falling within the scope of MCS 001


4.1 NICEIC will certify an enterprise if all of the following requirements are met .

The applicant enterprise:
a) is an installation company
b) can demonstrate a minimum of two installations within the appropriate technology being applied for. The standard of work shall be not less than that affording conformity with MCS 001, and appropriate British Standard and other Industry Codes of Practice


6.2 Inspections will cover both quality management systems and completed installations unless agreed in advance with NICEIC to inspect an incomplete installation

 

[SolarCity]

So I can also take it that the information was not volunteered to the inspector either? I think possibly the only way to get this to bed will be to ask the MCS direct: "Can an existing installation that has been installed by another contractor be used for my assessment?"

And if the answer to that question is "Yes", then it has to be one of the most ridiculous 'assessments' possible.

 

[Treadwarm]

I am a little concerned that you guysthink that I am saying you are allowed to use someone else's installation. I am 100% that if you told a certification body that someone else has done your installation and you are just using it to get a pass they would fail you.

My problem is that at no point during the three assesmentd I have had and friends of mine have had, have we been asked to prove we did the installation.

 

[Markc]

You don't have to actually do an installation yourself, if you know of someone who has done an installation you could use this as an example to show the assesor. You build your project pack and hand over pack around this installation as if you have completed it from initial enquiry to calcs to commissioning. The assesor will be able to see that you understand the installation process and audit you in 12 months to ensure you are doing it correctly.

Sorry Treadwarm you have said exactly that. "you don't actually have to do an installation yourself" If I now speak out of line well so be it, but what YOU are doing is fraud! You are miss representing companies to achieve MCS without going through the procedures to ensure ability. You must see how this looks!

My problem is that at no point during the three assesmentd I have had and friends of mine have had, have we been asked to prove we did the installation.

You should not be expected to prove the installation is one of your own! It is assumed under the rules of enrolment prescribe by the certifying body. You sign a declaration on assessment to confirm this!

That's like saying if you don't ask I don't tell! You have promoted on an open forum the use of fraudulent tactics to achieve an accreditation that we all on here have worked bl**dy hard for and at extreme cost to us! Quite frankly I absolutely disgusted and angry about what you have posted. Mr Joe Public reads these posts here, Joe public that may well have an interest in having a renewable installed. How does this type of posting stating we achieve MCS by fraudulently representing someone else work help?

What your first post should of said is "you don't have to have conducted an installation if you can use someone else's and keep the fact secret so as not to achieve a major non compliance, "Mum's the word!""

And if this gets taken off due to content, so be it!

 

[Treadwarm]

Mark I have simple highlighted a situation that is becoming more and more common in gaining MCS. I care enough about this issue to raise it on forums like this and discuss it with CB's to highlight an issue that could fource installers into doing this fraudulant yet increasingly common action.

Am I so wrong for raising the issue and discussing it to make more people aware or should I carry on like others and say well if you can't get your first installation tough "this is business" in your words.

I have had to publicise this loop hole as more and more installers are using it and if we stick together we could get the mcs to see it.

Once again I appreciate your points but with due respect you can't point the finger at me for raising thid issue if the mcs has not picked up on this to put a stop to it. And I would be interested to know if you are thinking of writing to your CD or do you think you have done enough by complaining to me for raising it ???

This may be the reason why other certification is such a joke if people think when they have it sod everybody else rather than working at it to
improve the standard(s)

 

[TedM]

Treadwarm, if you are as concerned as you say to close this 'loophole' then I suggest you respond to the current DECC consultation on microgeneration - Microgeneration Strategy consultation - Department of Energy and Climate Change - which covers MCS and quality issues. List in as much detail as possible all the loopholes that you have seen that allow MCS accreditation to be obtained in the manner you have described.

I presume you have also raised this directly with the various MCS steering committees? What was their reply?

 

[Markc]

I can't gather if you're promoting the use of such tactics to gain MCS or highlighting them as a way of raising awareness of the loop hole?

Reading your earlier posts you state it's unfair to discriminate potential installers due to them not being able to afford the first installation or not being able to install due to age or alike yet now it's you are in contact with the CB's to raise awareness. The unfairness isn't down to the lack of funds, age or ability. As we all agree correct documented sub contracting is permitted and as an industry is promoting jobs and that is NOT in question. But the first installation to be assessed MUST be installed by the company being assessed. If it can not be afforded well then sorry but yes "that's business!" To conduct your own installation in materials costs are down to £1000 - £1500. Still a lot of money but not in the same scale as what I paid early 2010. So is it now accepted by some that this cost is unfair?

Standards have and will continue to improve and as they do some will still endeavour to exploit loop holes, that's life and will never change. No matter how tight the procedures. No certification body can stand and witness the installation and it would be ridiculous to think they could. Hence the declaration.

You ask if I am happy to just point the finger at you or do something. There's no finger pointing at you other than what you have posted previously. You have raised and promoted this activity and by reading your own earlier post you will see how it reads. I stand by my posts and comments 100%. I do feel strongly enough about this to contact my CB and MCS but by reading the rules of enrolment I suspect I know what the response will be.

 

[Treadwarm]

I have raised my concerns to Corgi and will be doing the same with NIC in January I have spoke to a couple of people on the main steering group who are looking into reviewing the standards but I have not yet heard anything. I will put my points on the DECC site first thing tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Treadwarm]

Mark I can confirm 100% that I do NOT condone the use of other installers work as your own, I simple informed the guy who asked the question that this is a route more and more people are using, I did not say I recommend it but to be fair I did not say I do not recommend it so fair point.

I will let you know how I get on raising this issue with the steering group and CB's

 

[Markc]

I have raised my concerns with MCS, DECC and NICEIC tonight. I will post responses once or if received.

 

[MorganPVI]

Not surprised, but thanks for making your link to the mcs company clear Treadwarm.

I'd hope the MCS assessor was able to pick up on the papertrail of the assement system, if it's someone elses work i'd hope he/she were compentent enough to pick up the signs and investigate more and ask some pointed questions.

 

[Treadwarm]

Hi All,

I have spoken to some people involved with MCS both and both of which are work for certification bodies and they have advised reading that a consultation has been carried out of the last three months and the document has been released.

I have managed to find it and it may be worth a read, see the link below.

Microgeneration Strategy consultation - Department of Energy and Climate Change

 

[TedM]

That refers to the preparatory consultation that has lead on to the current one that is now open for responses, a link to which I posted yesterday, and which provides a summary of the earlier work.

 

[welsh connect]

hi guys just wondering if you know the cheapest place to get a quality system without having to do the course !!i dont know bout you but im sick of paying out all the time,lets face it its not just 50 here 50 there its 600 here and 500 there .
Which ever association you sign with should give you a quality folder the amount they charge .
Well thats my rant over with lol !!!!!!!!!!

 

[toomanylogins]

Hello

Its paul from complete picture here. You could have a look at our system you should find it on Google. I have tried to keep it reasonably priced and it's much more than a bunch of quality management manuals. This will help you manage each of the installations as its a full project management package. once you get the hang of it it will save a lot of time, provided you are happy using online system we do have many satisfied customers.

Regards
Paul

 

[SRE]

hi guys just wondering if you know the cheapest place to get a quality system without having to do the course !!i dont know bout you but im sick of paying out all the time,lets face it its not just 50 here 50 there its 600 here and 500 there .
Which ever association you sign with should give you a quality folder the amount they charge .
Well thats my rant over with lol !!!!!!!!!!

I hate to disillusion you but if you think you're forking out now wait until you've got your MCS and see what you've forgotten to buy - it took us about 6 months before we had everything we needed and we didn't take a penny out of the business before then.

Complete picture is worth a look at if you haven't got anything in place at all - and it's not hugely expensive either.