MCS Quality Management System

[Markc]

Your last post does now make more sense. It's not how I first thought that you can use an existing system. It is still up to the assessed company to provide proof from first contact to completion that they were the installing company, all be it via sub contracted labour on certain aspects. So on that first job it would be a case of not only ensuring faith from the client to the contractor that they will achieve MCS but also fund sub contracted labour for the installation.

If however it isn't the case I don't understand how you can possibly use someone else's installation to gain MCS like you said in an earlier post? Am I correct is assuming if you know of an installer who is MCS you could contact them to ask if you can use their installation as an example of works for you to achieve MCS rather than having the expense of installing a system yourself? If that is correct it is that, that sticks in the throat a bit.

Thanks for the last post Treadwarm

 

[SolarCity]

Don't worry, I won't shoot the messenger

I don't agree that the QMS equals customer satisfaction. I don't agree that it helps small businesses in any way either.

So if the MCS scheme does not consider technical ability (it cannot, unless it judges an installation) then it is useless.

For example, I have worked with plenty of sparks who are 17th Edition but does this mean they are good sparks? Of course not. If it did then we could do away with the NICEIC, ECA and NAPIT.

 

[Treadwarm]

The question is how would the assesor know if you have used somebody elses installation ??? Impossible for them to check, but they can asses that you understand all the areas of the standard and test you on this during your assesment.

In reality if you adopt an mcs standard qms then your company will operate to a high standard for documentation ( see easy mcs in Chester ) and the procedures will en-sure you know how to work.

Only during your annual audit when they pick your installations at random to asses could they check if you are installing to the correct standard. Furthur more if a client feels your installation is poor they can report you to REAL who could arrange an audit.

Put it this way you could be the best spark in the world with the highest standard qms but you don't have the cash to pay for the products to put them on your own house, or find anybody to take a punt on someone who is not mcs accredited.

Sorry to say it guys but yes, you can get mcs from an existing installation I know because I have done it myself.

U do need a good quality management system and easy mcs seem to be the best for this!!

 

[Markc]

Hi Treadwarm, Is it PV you have achieved MCS on for the three companies you mentioned earlier? The reason for asking is, is there an avenue for someone with a PV system to recoup some of the cost by "letting out" their own system? As they say if you can't beat them join them!

 

[SolarCity]

The question is how would the assesor know if you have used somebody elses installation ??? Impossible for them to check, but they can asses that you understand all the areas of the standard and test you on this during your assesment.

Could this not be said about a lot of assessments? If you use someone elses work as your own to achieve NICEIC accreditation then you are guilty of fraud.

In reality if you adopt an mcs standard qms then your company will operate to a high standard for documentation ( see easy mcs in Chester ) and the procedures will en-sure you know how to work.

It seems to me, and I could well be wrong, that companies are being led by the hand through the QMS process. They may well end up with a high standard document at the end but there is nothing stopping cowboy outfits from getting involved if what you say is correct. That cannot possibly be right.

 

[MorganPVI]

Passing off someone elses work as your own would be fraud, using a sub contractor to install for you would be 'technically' fine. I think it depends how your business is setup, some companies will have employees, some will use CIS labour as required, others will be what I term "salesman with an MCS umbrella".
Pretty sure we'll see a lot of salesmen selling systems this coming year.

No offence to you Treadwarm but you do seem to be very vocal about easy mcs, imo you can never really fully understand a complex quality management system unless you write it yourself. I'd certainly not want a company fitting panels on my roof that have never installed a system for accreditation, no matter what the MCS assesor approves.

 

[Treadwarm]

Hi Treadwarm, Is it PV you have achieved MCS on for the three companies you mentioned earlier? The reason for asking is, is there an avenue for someone with a PV system to recoup some of the cost by "letting out" their own system? As they say if you can't beat them join them!

I passed with Heat pumps for a company in Doncaster, and for my current company (Treadwarm) then PV and Solar thermal for a company in North Wales.

Not heard of anybody doing this but it may be an option.

 

[Markc]

I passed with Heat pumps for a company in Doncaster, and for my current company (Treadwarm) then PV and Solar thermal for a company in North Wales.

Yet one week ago........

I am just looking at getting my MCS in place for PV but do not have the time or knowledge to create a QMS, I have heard of a company called easymcs Cost & Pain Free MCS Installer Accreditation & Certification

they seem to produce a QMS bespoke for your company and mentor you through the process. I have spoken to a few people and these guys seem to be the biggest in the market at the moment, do you know much if anything about them? they have said the cost is £495 which when you consider a course is generally £150 and then a day not installing is another £250 + i would still have to build it with most of these seminars i think it is a good deal?

They have also offered a £50 discount to mcs assessment with NIC EIC do you know if this is legitimate?

I'm trully sorry Threadwarm but I think it may be time to come clean. A very cunning marketing scheme you have in place there. Easy MCS will be pleased. I like the plan and I have been following the posts with interest.

With the greatest if respect Mark C.

 

[Treadwarm]

to be honest I was simple asked how did you get around needing to show and installation without anybody letting you on the roof without MCS.

If you can prove you have the knowledge and been on the necessary training, your assessment is then a test of your capability via a series of questions for you to answer (do we agree on this) . before you answer ask yourself how you can gain part p ( 3 day course, £300) this includes a practical exam on a training rig. how do you gain 17th edition (5 day course £500 - £700) including a practical on a training rig and written exam. both come with annual assessments.

MCS is no different but everyone seems to want to make it more difficult, your mcs assessment is more in-depth than the other you have been on because they want to en-sure you are not only capable of designing the system but also dealing with the customer correclty from a document point of view.

I think that in this forum MCS is being confused, it seems that it is thought of as a mark on your quality of INSTALLATION capability, if so then why would you require the other electrical certification ??? Answer you have part p ,17th and working at heights for for this, MCS is to ensure you run your business correctly if you then want to do PV you must have 17th or heat pump G3 etc. you will be assessed on these separately in some cases by the same CB (certification body)

This is why the majority of MCS assessors are ex-ISO assessors and the reason your QMS must be of a high standard, and include proof of your capabilities as an electrical engineer to carry out your work.

Also the reason why I recommend Easy MCS other than the fact I have had my QMS from them and worked with them to understand the needs of the installer, is due to the fact that they actually mentor you through the introduction of your QMS as well as supplying you with the pack. Some companies do just supply you with a bundle of docs and say crack on, Easy MCS definitely do not.

Once again guys this is not meant as a cheat for MCS but as assistance in understanding the true meaning behind MCS. Trust me I do know the standards, and also people on the MCS steering group so please any help I can be just ask.

 

[Treadwarm]

Yet one week ago........



I'm trully sorry Threadwarm but I think it may be time to come clean. A very cunning marketing scheme you have in place there. Easy MCS will be pleased. I like the plan and I have been following the posts with interest.

With the greatest if respect Mark C.

Yes Mark fair point I did advise i would recommend them on the forum to gain some interest for them, in all fairness they did do me a deal on my QMS but I would not be on here promoting them if the service was crap. I do know some of the people at easy MCS but i can assure you they are well worth speaking to when looking to gain mcs.

I hope i am not being seen as a cheats way to gain mcs as i only came on here to give help rather and advise people on gaining mcs and that it is not as difficult or costly as everybody makes out.

 

[Markc]

Am not in anyway doubting your knowledge on MCS, it's been enlightening all be it not all pleasing. After the explanation the waters have cleared and all be it not entirely happy with the fact we will have to learn to live with it. Anyway its not like we aren't used to it, is it?

From a customers point of view MCS is seen as a reassurance of ability not as a paperwork exercise. MCS is the bench mark the customer is looking for. Not one of our clients has asked about Part P, 17th or even if we are qualified! All they seem interested in is "are you MCS"

I agree not everyone could achieve MCS, but there again there is a reason for this. If you're unable to achieve MCS then I would suggest you can't do the job. Harsh may be but that's my opinion. MCS is the method to keep the cowboys out yet it seems that, that may well be undermined and that's the problem.

 

[Markc]

Yes Mark fair point I did advise i would recommend them on the forum to gain some interest for them, in all fairness they did do me a deal on my QMS but I would not be on here promoting them if the service was crap. I do know some of the people at easy MCS but i can assure you they are well worth speaking to when looking to gain mcs.

I hope i am not being seen as a cheats way to gain mcs as i only came on here to give help rather and advise people on gaining mcs and that it is not as difficult or costly as everybody makes out.

Threadwarm, You're no cheat and no offence taken but please don't take us as fools either. If I knew of a company in place at the time I wrote our QMS I think I may well of contacted them. I'm sure they do a very good job and worth the money (No I'm not on commission!) but as ours in now in place it is very simple to keep updated. Please don't stop posting, you obviously know your MCS and that is worth a lot on here and I think I can speak for everyone both achieving MCS and those who have achieved MCS that having a "insider" so to speak is very valuable.

Again no offence and with the warmest of regards

Mark C

 

[Treadwarm]

Threadwarm, You're no cheat and no offence taken but please don't take us as fools either. If I knew of a company in place at the time I wrote our QMS I think I may well of contacted them. I'm sure they do a very good job and worth the money (No I'm not on commission!) but as ours in now in place it is very simple to keep updated. Please don't stop posting, you obviously know your MCS and that is worth a lot on here and I think I can speak for everyone both achieving MCS and those who have achieved MCS that having a "insider" so to speak is very valuable.

Again no offence and with the warmest of regards

Mark C

Thanks Mark,

I take on board what you say and anything i can do to help please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[Markc]

you do not need to physically do an installation you can use an existing as long as you show you understand the installation.

If you are honest do you real think the physical installation of a PV system is any that difficult for a competent electrical engineer ????

The physical installation is not difficult for a competent electrical engineer but there again you said the magic word "competent" The prove of competence isn't just Part P and 17th, Work at height and man hand. So now the remainder of the requirements is down to a company who doesn't install.

I see it as a short cut into a market without the time, effort or investment. The issue is NOT using sub contracted labour for any aspect of the works, after all a scaffolder is a sub contractor and I wouldn't think twice about instructing one over us doing it but there again that's not strictly part of the installation. The issue is being able to use a system that hasn't in anyway shape or form been anything to do the the company being assessed. A third party installation. A system installed by an accredited MCS installer and a system that has in no way had anything to do with the company being assessed. Which would also mean the documented evidence to achieve MCS will be bogus and fraudulent. It is that aspect that sticks in the throat not the sub contracted labour.

 

[Treadwarm]

The physical installation is not difficult for a competent electrical engineer but there again you said the magic word "competent" The prove of competence isn't just Part P and 17th, Work at height and man hand. So now the remainder of the requirements is down to a company who doesn't install.

I see it as a short cut into a market without the time, effort or investment. The issue is NOT using sub contracted labour for any aspect of the works, after all a scaffolder is a sub contractor and I wouldn't think twice about instructing one over us doing it but there again that's not strictly part of the installation. The issue is being able to use a system that hasn't in anyway shape or form been anything to do the the company being assessed. A third party installation. A system installed by an accredited MCS installer and a system that has in no way had anything to do with the company being assessed. Which would also mean the documented evidence to achieve MCS will be bogus and fraudulent. It is that aspect that sticks in the throat not the sub contracted labour.

Mark I total agree but this is a bit of a floor with MCS and i have used a slightly different reasoning below, what are your thoughts on this.

You are an electrical engineer with 10 years on site experience and you have installed every different type of standard electrical domestic and commercial system and one of your client comes to you to fit his new PV system but he asks do you have MCS. So you read up on it and you know you have your 17th and part P and you put yourself on the necessary course's to ensure you fully understand how to design and calculate the system.

You now have all this in place but your customer wont let you on his house because you do not have MCS but you know without a doubt that you could do it with your hands behind you back. But you do not have an installation to show to complete your assesment

Should the fact that you don't have £5k in the bank to buy a PV system and put it on you house mean that you should not be allowed to get into MCS???? or is it such a bad thing that a mate of yours lets you use his installation which you walk around pointing out any areas required by the assessor e.g labelling isolation etc. And you have at this point shown your 17th certificate along with you manual handling and working at heights and you have been signed of under test conditions that you can do the electrical work during your 17th edition assessment.

I completely agree that using someone else's installation is morally wrong but it is a possibility that people will be forced into especially as the requirement to take a punt on someone who is not MCS accredited becomes less and less. I would much prefer the steering group behind MCS to introduce a UKAS accredited testing facility based solely on the installation with manufactured fault to rectify and on site common issue that will occur from time to time (replacing tiles etc) to ensure competency

This is the only way the number of MCS accredited PV installers will grow in my opinion.

As always your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[SolarCity]

My concern here, and I'm sure I'm not alone, is that a lot of us saw the MCS accreditation process as a bit of a pain. However, we get some comfort in the thought that it would keep out a lot of the crap installers.

However, with the new fast-n-easy companies offering QMS documents in exchange for cash AND the revelation that an MCS accredited installer need not have ever installed a system of his own, the route for a cowboy installer is cheap and easy.

Is it unfair that someone that has the relevant training cannot get MCS because he cannot afford to fit a system on his own house? Maybe. But this is business. Have you ever needed something for your business that you couldn't afford?

Once again, I'm not shooting the messenger here and I do appreciate Treadwarm's input. My frustration is with the MCS setup itself. If what I am reading is correct, and at the moment I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should be considered a national embarassment.

 

[Markc]

My frustration is with the MCS setup itself. If what I am reading is correct, and at the moment I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should be considered a national embarassment.

Here, here!

 

[Markc]

Mark I total agree but this is a bit of a floor with MCS and i have used a slightly different reasoning below, what are your thoughts on this.

You are an electrical engineer with 10 years on site experience and you have installed every different type of standard electrical domestic and commercial system and one of your client comes to you to fit his new PV system but he asks do you have MCS. So you read up on it and you know you have your 17th and part P and you put yourself on the necessary course's to ensure you fully understand how to design and calculate the system.

You now have all this in place but your customer wont let you on his house because you do not have MCS but you know without a doubt that you could do it with your hands behind you back. But you do not have an installation to show to complete your assesment

Should the fact that you don't have £5k in the bank to buy a PV system and put it on you house mean that you should not be allowed to get into MCS???? or is it such a bad thing that a mate of yours lets you use his installation which you walk around pointing out any areas required by the assessor e.g labelling isolation etc. And you have at this point shown your 17th certificate along with you manual handling and working at heights and you have been signed of under test conditions that you can do the electrical work during your 17th edition assessment.

I completely agree that using someone else's installation is morally wrong but it is a possibility that people will be forced into especially as the requirement to take a punt on someone who is not MCS accredited becomes less and less. I would much prefer the steering group behind MCS to introduce a UKAS accredited testing facility based solely on the installation with manufactured fault to rectify and on site common issue that will occur from time to time (replacing tiles etc) to ensure competency

This is the only way the number of MCS accredited PV installers will grow in my opinion.

As always your thoughts are appreciated.

Isn't that scenario exactly what we have done to achieve MCS? We've been there done that. Consider what we went through on our first port of call to a potential customer. If it wasn't for us taking what is a huge financial gamble, and trust me I don't run a multi million pound company, as a two man band we wouldn't be where we are today. Our financial outlay is as simple as make or break. The saying speculate to accumulate has never been truer here.

No matter what the purpose of MCS it is seen as a level of competence which also includes installation. If it didn't why inspect an installation on assessment? In my opinion there's no difference in MCS, to Part P, to being NICEIC or alike. Consider if we allowed someone else to use one of our rewires to achieve Part P. I think it would be considered as fraud in my opinion and possible life threatening! You can not confirm the third party is fully aware of all the requirements unless you can witness and inspect what has been done. I kow alot of people who have reams of paper and certificates to show what they are qualified in but when it comes to putting it into practice their as much good as ----- on a fish!! No matter what the advantage the assessed company can not provide evidence of a correct installation so the scenario is with the first customer no different. "Have you actually installed a system?" NO!

The other consideration to the "if they don't have the funds to install to their own property" is it would also be unlikely to have the funds to finance the first commercial installation also. Not many PV suppliers I know of offer credit to newly established installers.

I know the actual installation process isn't taxing but neither is it a job anyone can do. There is a high element of competence required in several fields and trust me when I say I've seen the good the bad and the ugly! By approving companies who have never installed this will increase and like a lot of schemes MCS will lose its importance as it has in other industries.

As a MCS accredited company I find the circumstances allowing people to achieve MCS without even taking any tools off the van totally outrageous. Using sub contracted labour is not the issue. I think this debate will run and run until such time either MCS stands back and agree the system requires improvement or the entire scheme ends up in the scrap bin. The only end result being a lot of companies who have invested in the industry being left out of pocket.

One final question. On one of these "borrowed" installations used for inspection, was the MCS assessor fully aware of the fact that the installation was not conducted by the assessed company and that the system is in no way prove of their ability to conduct an installation?

 

[Markc]

Straight off the MCS website:

The MCS is an internationally recognised quality assurance scheme which demonstrates to your customers that your company is committed to meeting rigorous and tested standards. It was designed with input from installer and product representatives. Similar to the Gas Safe Register, the MCS gives you a mark of competency and demonstrates to your customers that you can install to the highest quality every time.

Installer certification entails assessing the supply, design, installation, set-to-work and commissioning of renewable microgeneration technologies.

Consider the Gas Safe register. Allowing an company to achieve Gas Safe with out conducting a gas installation. That would be questioned I'm sure.

 

[SolarCity]

Either the MCS website and most of it's documentation needs rewriting or there's something wrong here.

I don't agree that just anyone can fit a PV system. It's a dangerous job - both to customer AND installer. You don't just compromise on things like this just because someone can't afford to prove they can do the work.