Discuss new minor works certificate for a fused spur in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Hi, can someone give me some advice RE completing a small works certificate for a fused spur coming from a ring final.

1) In part 2 of the AMD2 small works cert, its wants Zdb supplying the final circuit. Does this mean the Zs for the ring final that I measure or the MaxZs 32A MCB which is 1.1?
2) for part 3 of the cert, is the new FCU 13A then in effect the new DB and therefore I would put in FCU, BS 1362, 13A?
3) Then for part 4 test results do I complete the R1+R2 just for the cable from the new socket to the FCU? will my max Zs be the rating for the 1362 fuse at 1.83?

Thanks for your help,

gordon daly
 
Hi, can someone give me some advice RE completing a small works certificate for a fused spur coming from a ring final.

1) In part 2 of the AMD2 small works cert, its wants Zdb supplying the final circuit. Does this mean the Zs for the ring final that I measure or the MaxZs 32A MCB which is 1.1?
2) for part 3 of the cert, is the new FCU 13A then in effect the new DB and therefore I would put in FCU, BS 1362, 13A?
3) Then for part 4 test results do I complete the R1+R2 just for the cable from the new socket to the FCU? will my max Zs be the rating for the 1362 fuse at 1.83?

Thanks for your help,

gordon daly
Gets a little confusing, adding a FSU the Zs will be @ the FSU.
Zdb = Zs @ Distribution Board
I would say the R1 + R2 for the additional FSU cabling, & a note on the MWC to confirm that
The Zs would be the OCPD for the ring main
 
Gets a little confusing, adding a FSU the Zs will be @ the FSU.
Zdb = Zs @ Distribution Board
I would say the R1 + R2 for the additional FSU cabling, & a note on the MWC to confirm that
The Zs would be the OCPD for the ring main
thanks for the reply Cliffed, so your saying that in effect the FCU 13A in this case is Zdb which is 1.83 ohms and I'm doing R1+R2 for the cable from the new socket to the FCU?
Then when I measure max Zs it should be under the max Zs for the BS1362 at 1.83 Ohms.
Sorry to bother you just want to be sure as this is one of my portfolio of evidence for Napit.

Thanks,

gordon
 
What is the fused spur supplying power to?
hi pretty mouth, a fused spur 13A to an exterior garden socket. Mostly I want to know if I regard the 13A 1362 as the OCPD only and therefore will the R1+ R2 be measured for the new cable from the socket to the FCU only and also when I measure MaxZs from the new socket (furthest away) will I regard the max allowed Zs as that for a 13A fuse rather than the MCB for the ring?

Thanks ,

gordon
 
hi pretty mouth, a fused spur 13A to an exterior garden socket. Mostly I want to know if I regard the 13A 1362 as the OCPD only and therefore will the R1+ R2 be measured for the new cable from the socket to the FCU only and also when I measure MaxZs from the new socket (furthest away) will I regard the max allowed Zs as that for a 13A fuse rather than the MCB for the ring?

Thanks ,

gordon
They are good questions. My opinions:

1. Zdb measured at the DB at the origin of the final circuit, not at the FCU.

2. I think 13A BS1362 . If there were multiple sockets downstream of the FCU, then this part of the circuit would rely on it for overcurrent protection.

3. Max measured Zs is the actual measured Zs at the furthest point, ie at the garden socket. R1+R2 is from the origin of the RFC to the furthest point ie the garden socket.
 
There are three protection situations that need confirmation/documenting

1) the additional point on the RFC, you must ensure the protection for the RFC does in fact protect in the case of a fault at or near this fcu (upstream of the fuse side)
2) the circuit downstream of the fcu, this may of course cause sufficient current to operate the RFC circuit protection, but may not, so must be checked against the fuse in the fcu.

Thirdly in any case, you would need to record the protection of cable downstream of the fcu for overload.

So really, if the current downstream at the end of the fcu circuit still operates the RFC Protection in time, I would just record this , and then the overload protection via the fcu fuse.

If it doesn't, I would record the RFC protection for upstream of the fuse, the downstream protection at the end of the fcu circuit, and the overload protection via the fcu fuse.
 
As this formed a lot of my work in the domestic market, additions via FCU, I asked the question here and elsewhere whether the FCU BS1362 fuse was the ocpd for what was on the addition. Some suggested it was the BS1362. However the guidance from my scheme, was that it was the ocpd for the final circuit that fed the FCU. Their argument was the BS1362 fuse size could be altered, was as the final circuit would unlikely not.
 
Hi @gmdaly!
As an industrial/commercial inspector having dealt with a few assessors, I concur with several comments made above and summarize for you what your registration body is likely to consider the "correct" usage of the model form.

An FCU is merely another accessory whose purpose is to provide a form of additional (derating) protection for a cable feeding a piece of equipment (the fact that the "equipment" may be a string of socket-outlets is not relevant in this context).
So: no it does not become considered the DB in this context, it is not considered different to any other accessory on this circuit that you have broken into, the Z(db) is at the DB supplying the circuit.

You have the mindset that the form wants to record the "circuit" you are "adding" from the point at which you are adding it. Adjust your mindset because this is not what the form was intended for: you should realize that BS7671 is only interested in the safety of the installation, and these tests you are doing are to prove,
a) that the circuit was safe enough for continued use in the first place for you to work on in (hence its interest in the means of earthing and bonding, frequently making you go and look under Mrs Miggins's kitchen sink for the stopcock);
and b) that you have not reduced its safety or changed the performance of any safety device by your working on it, by cutting the cable to break in to the circuit and insert your new accessory.
(Remember that, if you were actually adding a new circuit with its new OCPD, which you are suggesting is "effectively" what you are doing, then you in fact need to use a full EIC with its schedules. Same if you change the operating characteristics of a circuit's OCDP, e.g. by changing the rating of an MCB: full EIC required.)

So, in this context: your OCPD is that of the circuit you have altered but, because the spur protected by the FCU supplies one or more socket-outlets, the Z(s) is taken at the furthest point of the effectively extended circuit, the last socket. (Note the term: it is an altered and extended circuit, not a new or additional cct.) This enables you to test both that the circuit protection is adequate and that the BS1362 will operate thus adequately derating to protect the spur. (Normally, of course, you take the Z(s) at the FCU in that horrible method of leaving the accessory hanging off the wall live while using all three hands to hold your probes at the very convenient angles that every manufacturer designs for the supply terminals to be readily accessible for testing, while using your toes to hold the faceplate stable. But in this context your spur isn't supplying fixed equipment, so you get to use a plug box instead, yay!)

Maintaining the correct attitude to what BS7671 actually wants from your inspections and tests frequently makes uncertain situations far simpler to resolve. Many questions of the nature "do I need to test this or can I get away with that" are resolved by simply remembering "what is the real purpose of this test, what test do I actually need to do to determine that, is this reading satisfactory" and not going any further than that for fear of making unnecessary work for yourself. Extra testing and record keeping beyond ensuring safety of property and life, is only required for fault finding investigations.
 
Hmmm, only speed read the last post, but a number of things I don’t agree with, like an EIC for changing ocpd and confirming Zs to ensure BS1362 will disconnect.
 
Hmmm, only speed read the last post, but a number of things I don’t agree with, like an EIC for changing ocpd and confirming Zs to ensure BS1362 will disconnect.
Yup, that's the thing about "each inspector has his own opinions, and it's you signing the certificate"... All the certification bodies I've spoken to have said that if you do enough to actually change the operating characteristics of the protective device (whatever that might be) then you need to record such details that in essence you have to write up a full EIC for that circuit. But if your assessor complained at you for not doing so during an audit, you could certainly argue strongly the contrary and since it's your name going on the legal document, they are unlikely to blast you for it, but are likely to "strongly recommend" you do otherwise in future. Having examined their reasoning, I'm inclined to agree with them, even though I find it an irritating amount of work.

But what's wrong with checking that the BS1362 will operate? Assuming this is a spur off a 32A ring, if it has multiple sockets on it then it would behove you to check that the single conductor cannot carry more than its rating by ensuring that the FCU fuse will actually blow even if the Z(s) at the far end is too high for a B32 to operate. In theory the FCU fuse should always blow before the thermomagnetic trips, but it still seems appropriate to check that will blow at all: since the FCU is the accessory on the fixed wiring where you'd be tempted to check Z(s), it is possible for it to supply a spur that is long enough and high enough resistance (with reduced CSA) that the furthest point exceeds the max Z(s) of the MCB. If you are rushing around trying to polish off this Periodic because the boss has demanded you get another one done today (I've worked with a company like that, they loved a "Lim") then your inspection may not have revealed the purpose of the spur and you may be fooled into thinking it's to feed an unidentied item of fixed equipment. "Oh well, it's unlikely to be capable of overload so I'll just leave the FCU off and note it on the form..." Of course, if the spur is only feeding one regular socket then it's all irrelevant as the plugtop fuse will also do its job so no overload is indeed possible. But there's nothing wrong with recording an extra Z(s), it takes all of 30 seconds if you know where the furthest point is.
Why are all my replies so damned waffling today? <grumble-mutter> :-(
"I'm sorry this letter is so long, if I had enough time I would have written a shorter one."
 
Yup, that's the thing about "each inspector has his own opinions, and it's you signing the certificate"... All the certification bodies I've spoken to have said that if you do enough to actually change the operating characteristics of the protective device (whatever that might be) then you need to record such details that in essence you have to write up a full EIC for that circuit. But if your assessor complained at you for not doing so during an audit, you could certainly argue strongly the contrary and since it's your name going on the legal document, they are unlikely to blast you for it, but are likely to "strongly recommend" you do otherwise in future. Having examined their reasoning, I'm inclined to agree with them, even though I find it an irritating amount of work.

But what's wrong with checking that the BS1362 will operate? Assuming this is a spur off a 32A ring, if it has multiple sockets on it then it would behove you to check that the single conductor cannot carry more than its rating by ensuring that the FCU fuse will actually blow even if the Z(s) at the far end is too high for a B32 to operate. In theory the FCU fuse should always blow before the thermomagnetic trips, but it still seems appropriate to check that will blow at all: since the FCU is the accessory on the fixed wiring where you'd be tempted to check Z(s), it is possible for it to supply a spur that is long enough and high enough resistance (with reduced CSA) that the furthest point exceeds the max Z(s) of the MCB. If you are rushing around trying to polish off this Periodic because the boss has demanded you get another one done today (I've worked with a company like that, they loved a "Lim") then your inspection may not have revealed the purpose of the spur and you may be fooled into thinking it's to feed an unidentied item of fixed equipment. "Oh well, it's unlikely to be capable of overload so I'll just leave the FCU off and note it on the form..." Of course, if the spur is only feeding one regular socket then it's all irrelevant as the plugtop fuse will also do its job so no overload is indeed possible. But there's nothing wrong with recording an extra Z(s), it takes all of 30 seconds if you know where the furthest point is.
Why are all my replies so damned waffling today? <grumble-mutter> :-(
"I'm sorry this letter is so long, if I had enough time I would have written a shorter one."
BS7671 supplies notes on uses of an EIC & MEIW, the former typically for new circuits the latter for additions/alteration. A MEIW has provisions for test results for circuit.

As far as I'm aware, a FCU is used to limit current to the extended circuit (same as fuse in plug top to flexible cord). A Zs should conducted at furthest point, are compared to the limiting vales for the measured Zs, against the ocpd at the origin of the circuit, NOT a BS1362 fuse, otherwise its a poor design. As said one could extend a circuit, using a 5A 1362 fuse, to assist the limiting values, only for the owner to replace it with a 13A one.
 
As far as I'm aware, a FCU is used to limit current to the extended circuit (same as fuse in plug top to flexible cord). A Zs should conducted at furthest point, are compared to the limiting vales for the measured Zs, against the ocpd at the origin of the circuit, NOT a BS1362 fuse, otherwise its a poor design. As said one could extend a circuit, using a 5A 1362 fuse, to assist the limiting values, only for the owner to replace it with a 13A one.
I think we can use BS1362s to meet disconnection times. Max Zs for them is in tables 41.2 and 41.4. I take your point about owners replacing them with ones of an incorrect rating, but the same is true of BS3036s, or any fuse used for any sort of protection really.
 
Still think its bad design, using 1362's to beat disconnection times, and we can't stop people meddling inside a CU, but swopping fuses inside a FCU is pretty simple mistake to make.
 
Still think its bad design, using 1362's to beat disconnection times, and we can't stop people meddling inside a CU, but swopping fuses inside a FCU is pretty simple mistake to make.
But it's not beating anything.

A fuse is a fuse, if you need to disconnect within 5s or 0.4s you choose the cable/ocpd combination to ensure you achieve the disconnection time.

If your radial can't achieve 0.4s with a 20A mcb you would likely replace it with a 16A and so on.

A fuse is no different, sure it was easier to replace a 5A fuse wire with 30A, or slip a 30A in place in the case of cartridge fuse, than it is to replace a mcb. But it didn't stop us designing lighting circuits using cables incapable of providing disconnection times or overload protection if the user changed the fuse size to 30A.

In the case of a likely fused spur there are going to be situations where the end point doesn’t quite make the disconnection time for a 32A mcb (even though the rfc just makes it), but you cannot say that the system as a whole isn't protected properly as the 13A fuse (maximum) in the fcu fills the gap, just as it does for the overload aspect.

If it's acceptable to reduce the cable cross section at the fcu because the existence of the fuse provides the appropriate overload protection, why would you have to size this same cable up to achieve a disconnection time ignoring the existence of the fuse?
 
But it's not beating anything.

A fuse is a fuse, if you need to disconnect within 5s or 0.4s you choose the cable/ocpd combination to ensure you achieve the disconnection time.

If your radial can't achieve 0.4s with a 20A mcb you would likely replace it with a 16A and so on.

A fuse is no different, sure it was easier to replace a 5A fuse wire with 30A, or slip a 30A in place in the case of cartridge fuse, than it is to replace a mcb. But it didn't stop us designing lighting circuits using cables incapable of providing disconnection times or overload protection if the user changed the fuse size to 30A.

In the case of a likely fused spur there are going to be situations where the end point doesn’t quite make the disconnection time for a 32A mcb (even though the rfc just makes it), but you cannot say that the system as a whole isn't protected properly as the 13A fuse (maximum) in the fcu fills the gap, just as it does for the overload aspect.

If it's acceptable to reduce the cable cross section at the fcu because the existence of the fuse provides the appropriate overload protection, why would you have to size this same cable up to achieve a disconnection time ignoring the existence of the fuse?
You have your view which I respect, but however I still think it’s a poor deign and practice, to achieve disconnection time using an FCU etc, because the additional cable is too long or too small, when other installation methods can be used.

I think the concept of a FCU is for the connection of appliances, much like a plug top, or limitation of current as suggested in Appendix 15.
 
I'm aware, a FCU is used to limit current to the extended circuit (same as fuse in plug top to flexible cord). A Zs should conducted at furthest point, are compared to the limiting vales for the measured Zs, against the ocpd at the origin of the circuit, NOT a BS1362 fuse, otherwise its a poor design. As said one could extend a circuit, using a 5A 1362 fuse, to assist the limiting values, only for the owner to replace it with a 13A one.
 
I'm aware, a FCU is used to limit current to the extended circuit (same as fuse in plug top to flexible cord). A Zs should conducted at furthest point, are compared to the limiting vales for the measured Zs, against the ocpd at the origin of the circuit, NOT a BS1362 fuse, otherwise its a poor design. As said one could extend a circuit, using a 5A 1362 fuse, to assist the limiting values, only for the owner to replace it with a 13A one.
Struggling to understand your way of thinking.

Like any replaceable fuse, there is a risk that it could be replaced with one of an incorrect rating, that is true. This could lead to overload protection of the extended circuit being omitted - a potentially dangerous situation. I assume you consider this risk to be acceptable, and are happy that a BS1362 fuse offers adequate protection against overload? So why not use it for protection against shock?
 
Struggling to understand your way of thinking.

Like any replaceable fuse, there is a risk that it could be replaced with one of an incorrect rating, that is true. This could lead to overload protection of the extended circuit being omitted - a potentially dangerous situation. I assume you consider this risk to be acceptable, and are happy that a BS1362 fuse offers adequate protection against overload? So why not use it for protection against shock?
You correct to draw an analogy with rewireable fuses and such like. That’s perhaps why they have been made obsolete.

When designing an installation, you have a duty of care to the user. Historically the were just two BS1362 fuse ratings, 3A & 13A, designed to protect the supply leads in plug tops and the like. As previously said, FCU are intended to be used for fixed appliances, and 13A fuse to protect their supply leads. The use of an FCU as shown in Appendix 15, is the only place I’ve read suggesting this design.

Its the use of the fuse to achieve disconnection times I think is wrong. If the additional cable is too small or too long, then a different design should be used, not reliance on a fuse that can inadvertently changed, causing a danger to the end user.
 

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