periodic can i sign

[sahelectrical]

i have a friend whos landlord needing a periodic test done

i am confident in testing but hav never sat the course the bak of my sjib card says recognised 17th edition testing

can i sign

 

[dim_bulb]

its a report not a test.

I cant see any reason if you feel competent for you to carry out inspect/test and record youre findings but depends what the landlords insurance is.

meaning it might need to be through the regulatory body
sorry about the poor phrasing

 

[sahelectrical]

thanks as i say i know esting inside out

and it does just say competant person to sign

 

[act1988]

as the landlord will require the test cert for insurance purposes the testing/cert needs to be carried out by a competent person, and usually needs to be issued by "nic eic" etc.

 

[sahelectrical]

it would probs be a select 1 my compnys registerd with them

i called the sjib to ask but as usual got the no1 in the office

 

[lowfields71]

Hi Mate, new on here so hope my post is useful, heavily involved with the test and inspection industry so feel qualified to comment.

as the landlord will require the test cert for insurance purposes the testing/cert needs to be carried out by a competent person, and usually needs to be issued by "nic eic" etc.

It's not a test certificate, its a periodic inspection 'report' I dont mean to be an txxt quoting you act1988 but to complete a certificate the operative should be assesed and qualified to do so as you say however, there is generally no requirement for the engineer to be affiliated to a regulatory body when completing a 'report' that said it is certainly the industry concensus that being affiliated to one of these companies gives the customer confidence that the contractor is of at least a minimum standard (not always the case in reality) & the landlords insurance company/policy may require the work be completed by a regulatory body registered operative/company.

A competent person in regard to inspection and test work is defined as 'an electrician of superior knowledge and experience' the 2391 course is not a pre requsit but is normally required to attain the position of qualifying supervisor for a company/trader affiliated to one of the electrical industries regulatory bodies.

Hope this helps

Regards

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My understanding, is the 2391 exam was designed by the C&G at the request of the NICEIC, for their QSs to show their competence.
The requirement for QSs to have the 2391 was then dropped by the NICEIC, as very few passed.

 

[mozzo]

a 2391 cert can be used in addition to proven experience to demonstrate competency if someone was ever pulled into the docks but 2391 is not a mandatory requirement in order to conduct and issue a periodic report. From my point of view if someone for example is doing domestic CU changes, rewires, fault finding etc within domestic premises and have suffiecient qualifications and experience then I would say they should be competent to do domestic periodic reports. I can appreciate the need for high standards and I support high standards but we need to be careful of beating down good honest people with skill and suitable qualifications until it becomes staturay law and a criminal offence to engage in electrical work without being registered/certified.

 

[mattmoo1974]

I passed my 2391 and id say iv done all of 4 days testing, I'm just 1 of those annoying *insert abuse" that can read a book and quote it back to you word for word.
The 2391 test rig isn't rocket science to work out so i passed.
I'm sure there are alot of people on here with far less qualifications then me and that are much more capable of giving a PIR then me.
I could do a PIR properly and probably take me about a week. Iv caned the paper side and have won.Having 2391 isnt a ticket to being a testing god
Basically if you know your S**T and your confident you can do 1
Hope this helps and flame away

 

[Electricalserv]

Hi Mate, new on here so hope my post is useful, heavily involved with the test and inspection industry so feel qualified to comment.



It's not a test certificate, its a periodic inspection 'report' I dont mean to be an txxt quoting you act1988 but to complete a certificate the operative should be assesed and qualified to do so as you say however, there is generally no requirement for the engineer to be affiliated to a regulatory body when completing a 'report' that said it is certainly the industry concensus that being affiliated to one of these companies gives the customer confidence that the contractor is of at least a minimum standard (not always the case in reality) & the landlords insurance company/policy may require the work be completed by a regulatory body registered operative/company.

A competent person in regard to inspection and test work is defined as 'an electrician of superior knowledge and experience' the 2391 course is not a pre requsit but is normally required to attain the position of qualifying supervisor for a company/trader affiliated to one of the electrical industries regulatory bodies.

Hope this helps

Regards

Nice post mate, and spot on!

Heard a rumour that insurance companies are going to hit landlords hard in the very near future. The new condition report which is takeing over from the periodics will be needed once a year as opposed to 5. I hope its true!

 

[Electricalserv]

I passed my 2391 and id say iv done all of 4 days testing, I'm just 1 of those annoying *insert abuse" that can read a book and quote it back to you word for word.
The 2391 test rig isn't rocket science to work out so i passed.
I'm sure there are alot of people on here with far less qualifications then me and that are much more capable of giving a PIR then me.
I could do a PIR properly and probably take me about a week. Iv caned the paper side and have won.Having 2391 isnt a ticket to being a testing god
Basically if you know your S**T and your confident you can do 1
Hope this helps and flame away

2391-10 proves competence in testing single phase and 3 phase. Some people take to it like a duck to water others really struggle. To be honest mate if you've got the 2391 you should be able to **** a periodic.

 

[Electricalserv]

a 2391 cert can be used in addition to proven experience to demonstrate competency if someone was ever pulled into the docks but 2391 is not a mandatory requirement in order to conduct and issue a periodic report. From my point of view if someone for example is doing domestic CU changes, rewires, fault finding etc within domestic premises and have suffiecient qualifications and experience then I would say they should be competent to do domestic periodic reports. I can appreciate the need for high standards and I support high standards but we need to be careful of beating down good honest people with skill and suitable qualifications until it becomes staturay law and a criminal offence to engage in electrical work without being registered/certified.

Whats the isssue with gaining the 2391 qual....It proves testing competence. And any spark worth his salt would want to get as many quals as possible.

 

[mattmoo1974]

2391-10 proves competence in testing single phase and 3 phase. Some people take to it like a duck to water others really struggle. To be honest mate if you've got the 2391 you should be able to **** a periodic.

Duck to water,still dont really no what im doing tho
Its a paper exercise if you ask me to make money.
Iv passed the paper part, does nt make me a good tester is all im saying.
i passed the practical part as well. But your not going to put 500v up a LCD in college and have to pay for it

 

[mozzo]

I am also a landlord and very keen to know more about this. I would suspect that this once a year "new condition report" would be less comprehensive than a PIR, given that a proper PIR for a domestic dwelling that has no prior paper work takes about a day to complete propertly if you want to do full testing on all circuits. Any more info?

 

[Electricalserv]

The info I have is at present only rumour from a Napit officer. Insurance companies are going to insist on a yearly electrical installation condition report or they will not insure.

 

[mattmoo1974]

I am also a landlord and very keen to know more about this. I would suspect that this once a year "new condition report" would be less comprehensive than a PIR, given that a proper PIR for a domestic dwelling that has no prior paper work takes about a day to complete propertly if you want to do full testing on all circuits. Any more info?

You treat your property as a investment, a letting agent wants a "new condition report" 1 is expensive 1 is cheap

 

[mozzo]

Whats the isssue with gaining the 2391 qual....It proves testing competence. And any spark worth his salt would want to get as many quals as possible.

I am forever in agreement with continued development and I aim to get 2391 in due course to add to my long list of electrical and electronic qualifications but I was just saying that if I am competent to do domestic periodics then I am going to continue doing domestic PIR with or without 2391. I will however stay away from commercial PIR until 2391 is obtained.

 

[Electricalserv]

I am forever in agreement with continued development and I aim to get 2391 in due course to add to my long list of electrical and electronic qualifications but I was just saying that if I am competent to do domestic periodics then I am going to continue doing domestic PIR with or without 2391. I will however stay away from commercial PIR until 2391 is obtained.

Think this is going to stop. You will have to be registered with a scheme to do PIR's once insurance companies agree on this. Aviva is rallying this apparently.

 

[mozzo]

You treat your property as a investment, a letting agent wants a "new condition report" 1 is expensive 1 is cheap

A nice cheap once a year report is not a bad thing and puts us in the same ball park as gas safety certificate and can provide a regular income stream. It improves our profile as well as profits. Lets hope the insurance companies move on this.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Hi Mate, new on here so hope my post is useful, heavily involved with the test and inspection industry so feel qualified to comment.



It's not a test certificate, its a periodic inspection 'report' I dont mean to be an txxt quoting you act1988 but to complete a certificate the operative should be assesed and qualified to do so as you say however, there is generally no requirement for the engineer to be affiliated to a regulatory body when completing a 'report' that said it is certainly the industry concensus that being affiliated to one of these companies gives the customer confidence that the contractor is of at least a minimum standard (not always the case in reality) & the landlords insurance company/policy may require the work be completed by a regulatory body registered operative/company.

A competent person in regard to inspection and test work is defined as 'an electrician of superior knowledge and experience' the 2391 course is not a pre requsit but is normally required to attain the position of qualifying supervisor for a company/trader affiliated to one of the electrical industries regulatory bodies.

Hope this helps

Regards

Welcome to the asylum mate, very good post as well.

Cheers...........Howard

 

[mozzo]

Think this is going to stop. You will have to be registered with a scheme to do PIR's once insurance companies agree on this. Aviva is rallying this apparently.

Yes agreed, one will need to be registered with a scheme but you still don't need 2391?

 

[Electricalserv]

Yes agreed, one will need to be registered with a scheme but you still don't need 2391?

From what I've heard for PIR's 2391 will be the case.

 

[mozzo]

From what I've heard for PIR's 2391 will be the case.

if 2391 is not currently needed to produce a comprehensive PIR then it would be over kill to have 2391 for a quick insurance validation once a year. If insurance companies insist on 2391 for this simple test then the scheme providers should make mandatory 2391 for all PIR's otherwise it would make no sense and would be complex to manage didferent qualification requirements for basically the same type of work. If 2391 becomes mandatory then a lot of non academics will struggle to gain this and the industry will be hit by a shortage of sparks for this work. For me, I don't care, I have passed higher qualifications already and so will just have to do the 2391 sooner rather than later. In fact if it becomes mandatory then it's better for those on the inside (less competition).

 

[impecc]

Apart from having the necessary qualificatio, NAPIT requires you to have a minimum £250k professional indemnity insurance in place before you are allowed to do PIR

 

[MFHEng]

as the landlord will require the test cert for insurance purposes the testing/cert needs to be carried out by a competent person, and usually needs to be issued by "nic eic" etc.

Although the "Report" (not certificate) needs to carried out by a competant person, there is no requirement for that person to be afiliated to one of the governing bodies (NICEIC,NAPIT,ECA,ELECSA). Basic (very basic) competance to test and inspect is taken to be an individual who has completed C&G 2391 or similar.Further competance is from industry experience and experience of testing and inspecting.

 

[geofff]

Just to throw my pennies worth in:
Competent person (Electricity at Work Regulations)
The following is the definition from the Electricity at Work Regulations regarding a competent person:
"No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work."
The statement from the EAWR is very broad and is often the most confusing aspect of the whole electrical industry. As of yet, there is no legal structure behind being competent in terms of qualifications and experience. It is fair to say though, a relevant qualification would be a distinct advantage in a court of law.

Basically, be it on your own head if you have to try and prove competance in a court of law when someone has been injured/killed after you have carried out a PIR without holding 2391.

 

[Electricalserv]

Just to throw my pennies worth in:
Competent person (Electricity at Work Regulations)
The following is the definition from the Electricity at Work Regulations regarding a competent person:
"No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work."
The statement from the EAWR is very broad and is often the most confusing aspect of the whole electrical industry. As of yet, there is no legal structure behind being competent in terms of qualifications and experience. It is fair to say though, a relevant qualification would be a distinct advantage in a court of law.

Basically, be it on your own head if you have to try and prove competance in a court of law when someone has been injured/killed after you have carried out a PIR without holding 2391.

Spot on mate 2391 a must for a test engineer.

 

[jeffducati]

Come on Guys what kind of Answer are these?
Read the test Sheets!!
if you did not need the 2391 cert then why we all bothered to swot so bloody hard!!!
as for Niceic dropping this is Bxxxxxxxxxxxxs
you cannot join unless you have 2391/2
i have my area engineer here every year and we go through at least 2 jobs where testing is carried out and verified as to the original test sheet.
they look over the whole installation and we have a gigorous 4 hours of questions.
and none like this one because its obvious answer.
no 2391.2 qualification no testing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no Insurance would accept a test cert from unqualified Electrician and more so unregistered to Nic /nappit ECA ect