PIR code advice

eddie current · Apr 8, 2011

hi guys
im new here so please be gentle with me...lol
i have just started a new job in a factory, maintenance spark.
a few years ago the company had a PIR carried out and guess what, its my job to sort out all the faults,,,,,,,, happy days... not
my question is
they have been given a code 2 for the neutrals not being identified in the db baords.
they are identified, well they are all black and in a neutral bar...
any advice please guys on the easiest way around this, its very hard for me to turn the power off to these circuits as we run 24 / 7

Electricalserv · Apr 8, 2011

eddie current said:
hi guys
im new here so please be gentle with me...lol
i have just started a new job in a factory, maintenance spark.
a few years ago the company had a PIR carried out and guess what, its my job to sort out all the faults,,,,,,,, happy days... not
my question is
they have been given a code 2 for the neutrals not being identified in the db baords.
they are identified, well they are all black and in a neutral bar...
any advice please guys on the easiest way around this, its very hard for me to turn the power off to these circuits as we run 24 / 7

Are the neutrals numbered correctly?

Regarding turning equipment off, you need to sort out a schedule with the boss. If he wants the faults sorted he needs to comprimise....Aske him to do one fault per day. Give him an estimate on how long that fault is going to take to rectify, theres not much else you can do in this situation.

Guest123 · Apr 8, 2011

Out of hours working......bit of extra cash for you maybe.....

I dont think a code 2 is correct in this case TBH.

A code 2 warrants an unsatisfactory verdict on a PIR, can anyone honestly say that a neutral conductor out of sequence really warrants that. For me, no.

morph · Apr 8, 2011

out of sequence? uhm i would ask for the reg number , then you wont need to do anything

malcolmsanford · Apr 9, 2011

morph said:
out of sequence? uhm i would ask for the reg number , then you wont need to do anything

314.1 (ii) would be one

Chr!s · Apr 9, 2011

Although identified by color, can you identify the circuits to which they belong?

Sounds like a code 4 to me

If your after a Reg id look at 514.1.2.

IQ Electrical · Apr 10, 2011

Chr!s said:
Although identified by color, can you identify the circuits to which they belong?

Sounds like a code 4 to me

If your after a Reg id look at 514.1.2.

Yes, always a code 4 for me too but if, in the inspector's opinion, the non-sequential neutrals posed a danger in that particular installation then you're stuck with a code 2.

Guest123 · Apr 10, 2011

4, was my thought also.

eddie current · Apr 10, 2011

they didnt really state incorrect sequence, just incorrectly marked, they were wired to the 16th edition and marked in black, i think this guy expects blue tape on all the neutrals however this would make all the L3 live blues very dangerous in my opinion

IQ Electrical · Apr 10, 2011

eddie current said:
they didnt really state incorrect sequence, just incorrectly marked, they were wired to the 16th edition and marked in black, i think this guy expects blue tape on all the neutrals however this would make all the L3 live blues very dangerous in my opinion

How ridiculous, apply a '2 colours' sticker and the job's done!

Chr!s · Apr 10, 2011

Yes, always a code 4 for me too but if, in the inspector's opinion, the non-sequential neutrals posed a danger in that particular installation then you're stuck with a code 2.

Well what would the risk be in the installation in its present state and what potential risks may develop from the non compliance with 514.1.2.

I think the risk posed would be down to the competence of the person carrying out work.

malcolmsanford · Apr 10, 2011

You could always stick an alphanumeric indicator of "N' to them, I personally would not tape them blue for the reason you cited.

telectrix · Apr 10, 2011

i think it would be bloody dangerous to sleeve them blue. the installation was wired in the proper colours, and to interfere with this would cause confusion and possible danger of electrocution. do they want all the other original colours sleeved? aboslute madness IMO.

mogga · Apr 10, 2011

its a 16th edition installation NO BLUE Sleeving required Mixed Wire sticker on dbs If the neutrals don't correspond 1.1 2.2 ect then IMO its a code 4 and a lable on db stating non sequential neutrals

telectrix · Apr 10, 2011

or 15 minutes swapping the conductors into the correct terminal numbers.

jaresquire · Apr 10, 2011

Would a fuse finder work on neutrals? I'm too lazy to try it but it might help identify neutrals without a shutdown. 'Course you might then need to re-arrange them in the block,

morph · Apr 12, 2011

malcolmsanford said:
314.1 (ii) would be one

Hi , not sure how this means it mustb be sequential , i dont have book in front of me but googled the reg you quoted,
thanks

Regulation 314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits as necessary to avoid danger and inconvenience in the event of a fault,
take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit, reduce the possibility of unwanted

tripping of RCDs etc

malcolmsanford · Apr 13, 2011

Well you seemed to have quoted (iii) (i) and (iv) but the one I quoted was (ii)

Facilitate safe inspection, testing and maintenace (see also section 537).

IMO non sequencial neutrals does not aid any of those 3 things and could even be an hinderance to it. So unless I considered the neutrals to be particularly risk, I would code it a 4. Also as mentioned 514.1.2 is another IMO you could cite, I just did the first one off the top of my head, though in all honesty 514.1.2 is the better one to put on a PIR as it is more concise.