Should Scotland be allowed another referendum and do you think parliament has a right to deny it?

[Midwest]

The UK government could compromise- the EU have given special dispensation for Northern Ireland to stay in the customs union and single market, Scotland has asked the UK government to request the EU on Scotland's behalf - the UK have refused

I thought the reason for that, is the land border between the two countries, and nothing to do with NI wanting to stay in a trading partnership with the EU?

 

[Baddegg]

I thought the reason for that, is the land border between the two countries, and nothing to do with NI wanting to stay in a trading partnership with the EU?

Can you imagine if Scotland does leave.....and does Join the EU (can’t see it but...)and the EU give England dispensation due to the land border ?????......

 

[Midwest]

Can you imagine if Scotland does leave.....and does Join the EU (can’t see it but...)and the EU give England dispensation due to the land border ?????......

You have a point there!

 

[Baddegg]

You have a point there!

I’d imagine that in itself puts Scotland on the back foot for joining.....the EU will never concede that now ?

 

[baldelectrician]

I thought the reason for that, is the land border between the two countries, and nothing to do with NI wanting to stay in a trading partnership with the EU?

It's mainly to do with the Good Friday agreement and peace process, the point is that concessions can be made and M Barnier said that they would consider Scotland in the single market if the UK asked for it (no chance of Westminster asking for it)

The EU are quite clear- in the single market means following the rules of the market, no cherry picking

I am waiting on the court case happening at present, once that ends we will know where we all stand

https://twitter.com/PeoplesAS30?s=20

Section 30 Court case

 

[Baddegg]

One last question @baldelectrician, flogging dead horses and all that...What difference do you see with Scotland and Westminster or Scotland and Brussels?......same horse different jockey I’d have said....

 

[baldelectrician]

One last question @baldelectrician, flogging dead horses and all that...What difference do you see with Scotland and Westminster or Scotland and Brussels?......same horse different jockey I’d have said....

Westminster says take it or leave it to Scotland, they can add, remove powers from Scotland at any time and as we speak they are denying democracy by denying the Scottish Parliament a referendum despite them voting for it.
They can even abolish the Scottish Parliament tomorrow without any say by Scots

The Westminster relationship is that of master and serf- we CANNOT leave any time we want but must seek their approval, a bit like a relationship with domestic abuse.

How would you feel if your daughter (or son) was in a relationship with another party and they controlled all the money, power and were refusing them stay?
Welcome to Scotland

The EU is not perfect (by a long way) but at least the UK could leave when they want and could have a referendum when THE UK decided to have one
Scotland will also have a veto- something we do not have currently

For example-
The other UK governments have expressed concerns (Scotland even voted against legislation and saying NO was deemed as consent by Westminster) about many things, this has been ignored by the UK Government

The SNP got elected in Scotland (last Westminster election) with a higher share of the vote in Scotland and a higher % of the seats then the Conservatives got all over the UK.
This means (in UK 'universe') that the Conservatives have a 'mandate' but the SNP have no 'mandate' in an election where they specifically put a referendum in the manifesto.

Compare that to the EU.
The EU have said they stand 'fully behind Ireland' and have told the UK that they are not negotiating with Ireland but with the EU.
The EU know a hard Brexit will not be best but they are prepared to take a hit for a member state- the UK ignore the views and opinions of their nations and regions

 

[Baddegg]

Bit low mate comparing the relationship to domestic abuse, but let’s leave that for another time.....as for leaving the EU anytime you like don’t kid yourself....Greece tried it but we’re essentially starved and scared away from the idea and Scotland for all frankies lies won’t be much more of a financial powerhouse than the other small eu nations, the only reason the uk could pull it off was because of the financial clout we hold, the eu will command you and will not let you leave!...they will wrap it all up in pretty paper but they’ll ensure you’ll be deep in hock to em......wise man once said you’re better off owing a million pounds than a hundred as the banks are less likely to foreclose, the eu is the same but in reverse, the cost of Scotland leaving they bosom would ruin her and they’ll make sure of it......do you see a hard border then or can you see the eu allowing free flowing goods across.....England wales and Northern Ireland will be rubbing our hands together in that scenario....free trade with the rest of the world and cheap goods from Europe!.....? imagine all the goods coming into uk ports and straight over the border and back into the eu!......or do you think bernier et all havnt considered that?
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Bit low mate comparing the relationship to domestic abuse, but let’s leave that for another time.....as for leaving the EU anytime you like don’t kid yourself....Greece tried it but we’re essentially starved and scared away from the idea and Scotland for all frankies lies won’t be much more of a financial powerhouse than the other small eu nations, the only reason the uk could pull it off was because of the financial clout we hold, the eu will command you and will not let you leave!...they will wrap it all up in pretty paper but they’ll ensure you’ll be deep in hock to em......wise man once said you’re better off owing a million pounds than a hundred as the banks are less likely to foreclose, the eu is the same but in reverse, the cost of Scotland leaving they bosom would ruin her and they’ll make sure of it......do you see a hard border then or can you see the eu allowing free flowing goods across.....England wales and Northern Ireland will be rubbing our hands together in that scenario....free trade with the rest of the world and cheap goods from Europe!.....? imagine all the goods coming into uk ports and straight over the border and back into the eu!......or do you think bernier et all havnt considered that?

A quick research shows that nearly a million people born in Scotland live in England and nearly half a million people born in England live in Scotland....do you propose passports and visas to visit family members in future.....ultimately for all the politicians bluster this is about people....real life ordinary people.....I think frankie forgets this with her obsession......anyway it’s been great debating with ya and I look forward to your reply but that’s it for me now mate we’ll have to agree to disagree and hope you never catch me in Scotland.....
Ps....my real name is scott ? oh the irony ????

 

[baldelectrician]

Bit low mate comparing the relationship to domestic abuse, but let’s leave that for another time.....as for leaving the EU anytime you like don’t kid yourself....Greece tried it but we’re essentially starved and scared away from the idea and Scotland for all frankies lies won’t be much more of a financial powerhouse than the other small eu nations, the only reason the uk could pull it off was because of the financial clout we hold, the eu will command you and will not let you leave!...they will wrap it all up in pretty paper but they’ll ensure you’ll be deep in hock to em......wise man once said you’re better off owing a million pounds than a hundred as the banks are less likely to foreclose, the eu is the same but in reverse, the cost of Scotland leaving they bosom would ruin her and they’ll make sure of it......do you see a hard border then or can you see the eu allowing free flowing goods across.....England wales and Northern Ireland will be rubbing our hands together in that scenario....free trade with the rest of the world and cheap goods from Europe!.....? imagine all the goods coming into uk ports and straight over the border and back into the eu!......or do you think bernier et all havnt considered that?
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A quick research shows that nearly a million people born in Scotland live in England and nearly half a million people born in England live in Scotland....do you propose passports and visas to visit family members in future.....ultimately for all the politicians bluster this is about people....real life ordinary people.....I think frankie forgets this with her obsession......anyway it’s been great debating with ya and I look forward to your reply but that’s it for me now mate we’ll have to agree to disagree and hope you never catch me in Scotland.....
Ps....my real name is scott ? oh the irony ????

If a relationship is one of equal partners then it is mutual, if one partner exerts what is effectively controlling and coercive behaviour then it is unequal and controlling

On the last point - you have no point.
Before the EU there was a common travel area (all the British Isles- including the Republic of Ireland) where people from each part could live, work vote etc.
That existed before the EU and it will continue

There are NO passports and visas to visit people in Eire now and there will not be in the future (this is something that has been agreed between the UK and the Republic of Ireland / EU).

This is another scare story brought up ad infinitum (just like the fiscal deficit to join the EU- which applies to the Euro; not the EU)

I am happy to disagree with you, but the main point you have not answered....

Why does the Scottish Parliament not have the right to decide when and if there should be a referendum?

 

[Baddegg]

If a relationship is one of equal partners then it is mutual, if one partner exerts what is effectively controlling and coercive behaviour then it is unequal and controlling

On the last point - you have no point.
Before the EU there was a common travel area (all the British Isles- including the Republic of Ireland) where people from each part could live, work vote etc.
That existed before the EU and it will continue

There are NO passports and visas to visit people in Eire now and there will not be in the future (this is something that has been agreed between the UK and the Republic of Ireland / EU).

This is another scare story brought up ad infinitum (just like the fiscal deficit to join the EU- which applies to the Euro; not the EU)

I am happy to disagree with you, but the main point you have not answered....

Why does the Scottish Parliament not have the right to decide when and if there should be a referendum?

I think it comes down to stability mate.....they wanted a vote and got one......something changed and you want another vote.....at what point do you stop voting or calling for votes to have votes....they’ll always be a loser that’s democracy....and things will always change that’s life.....@midwest nailed it earlier you’ve not even given it a try yet!

 

[baldelectrician]

I think it comes down to stability mate.....they wanted a vote and got one......something changed and you want another vote.....at what point do you stop voting or calling for votes to have votes....they’ll always be a loser that’s democracy....and things will always change that’s life.....@midwest nailed it earlier you’ve not even given it a try yet!

I see your point but I read...
Sit down, know your place, you have had a vote- AND you want another - the audacity of some

I know people have differing opinions but the ability to choose ones own direction should be the corner stone of a democracy *except for viewers / readers in Scotland
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It will come out in the wash with this court case.

If the pro independence supporters win then it's game on - new indyref

If they lose then they win as we can prove democracy is dead in the UK and the support to an independent Scotland will increase more.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1273164702269521923

 

[Baddegg]

Mate your breaking my heart....answer me this IF frankie pulls it off and all the people that didn’t want to leave kick up a fuss about something or other would you agree they should have another vote?...and don’t forget more than half of people voted to stay.....no other results really matter , any polls taken are only taken to support the case of the people holding them so never a true reflection of people’s feelings.....point in case there’s a fair proportion of proud to be Scottish Sparks on here and I don’t see many jumping to your defence....must make you wonder a little if frankie and her supporters are no different to the people down here that live in London, living in a bubble they think they know best and that the rest of us are backwards, ? But they are never a true reflection of the rest of the country

 

[baldelectrician]

Mate your breaking my heart....answer me this IF frankie pulls it off and all the people that didn’t want to leave kick up a fuss about something or other would you agree they should have another vote?...and don’t forget more than half of people voted to stay.....no other results really matter , any polls taken are only taken to support the case of the people holding them so never a true reflection of people’s feelings.....point in case there’s a fair proportion of proud to be Scottish Sparks on here and I don’t see many jumping to your defence....must make you wonder a little if frankie and her supporters are no different to the people down here that live in London, living in a bubble they think they know best and that the rest of us are backwards, ? But they are never a true reflection of the rest of the country

Yes- if that's what the Scottish Parliament votes for... simples

The Scottish Parliament has voted already

Let me put it this way

We live in a parliamentary democracy (allegedly).

The Tories went to the country and got voted in on a mandate for Brexit

If the UK parliament decided to vote for another referendum on EU then that's OK- but they won't

We are in the position where the SNP have about 5 mandates to have a referendum now and they are being ignored by London
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Just a wee link to the petition if anyone wants to sign

Sign the Petition

Support the people's action on Section 30.

www.change.org

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Here''s how to run a small independent country

New Zealand officials admit two women with Covid-19 met friends

PM condemns failure to test pair before they left quarantine after arrival from UK

www.theguardian.com

 

[baldelectrician]

This has been a very interesting thread and I am really surprised by the lack of replies who say "It's up to the Scots to decide their future"
There have been many more "You Jocks should know your place" which really surprised me.

The thread title (which I did NOT pick) sums it up....
It uses "allowed" like you would for a child or a pet as opposed to "Do the Scots have the right to choose their future", which I would have picked.

This is the crux of the matter for me, it should be up to the Scottish People - through the Scottish Parliament to decide when and if there is a referendum yet many on here go with anecdotes etc and completely miss the point.

This is why the tide is slowly turning, lets be honest the only reason that Westminster gave permssion for a referendum last time is they thought it was a slam dunk for NO (remember NO to independence was at 68% at the start of the last campaign)

Now they have squeaky bums as their cash cow wants to leave.

 

[DPG]

Again you put words into our mouths to suit your purpose. Where have there been loads of replies saying that 'you jocks should know your place'?

The general opinion seems to favour the continued union of England and Scotland. And I certainly don't have anything against Scotland.

But you keep twisting things to suit your own agenda if you want. You seem to enjoy it.

 

[Baddegg]

Cash cow ?

 

[baldelectrician]

Again you put words into our mouths to suit your purpose. Where have there been loads of replies saying that 'you jocks should know your place'?

The general opinion seems to favour the continued union of England and Scotland. And I certainly don't have anything against Scotland.

But you keep twisting things to suit your own agenda if you want. You seem to enjoy it.

I am not putting words in to your mouths.

I am saying Scotland should have the right to choose, others are saying NO
It might be put in language of " the consensus is ...' but it is the same thing in the end.
Scots are denied to choose their own future at the time if their choice.

Either Scotland ( through their elected parliament) have the right to choose or not.

Democracy denied is not democracy.

 

[DPG]

I am not putting words in to your mouths.

I am saying Scotland should have the right to choose, others are saying NO
It might be put in language of " the consensus is ...' but it is the same thing in the end.
Scots are denied to choose their own future at the time if their choice.

Either Scotland ( through their elected parliament) have the right to choose or not.

Democracy denied is not democracy.

Read your second line in post #104

 

[baldelectrician]

Read your second line in post #104

?
Scotland should have the right to choose?
I agree.

The problem is when things like 'now is not the time' and ' you had a vote'

 

[DPG]

?
Scotland should have the right to choose?
I agree.

The problem is when things like 'now is not the time' and ' you had a vote'

Unbelievable. Completely ignoring the line I referred to and just decided to put whatever you wanted to instead.

You don't even realise you're doing it.

 

[Baddegg]

Are we reading different threads??.....who’s ever said on here the jocks should now they place???.......you are starting to concern me mate extremism comes in many forms ?

 

[baldelectrician]

I am reading it on my phone and I quoted the second line.
I will respond to the next 2 lines
It might be put in language of " the consensus is ...' but it is the same thing in the end.
I mean the consensus from elsewhere- the Scottish Parliament has voted for a referendum so isn't the consensus in Scotland

Scots are denied to choose their own future at the time if their choice.
This is true, the Scottish Parliament is being refused the power / permission to do so.
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Are we reading different threads??.....who’s ever said on here the jocks should now they place???.......you are starting to concern me mate extremism comes in many forms ?

It isn't literally being said but is essentially the just of the argument from those who feel they should ( not the Scottish Parliament) decide / deny a referendum.
Scotland is either in an equal partnership and can leave when it chooses or it is not and Scots need to know their place.

 

[DPG]

Your second line starts with 'There have been many more.....'.

But no, you choose another 2 lines to respond to.

You baffle me.

 

[baldelectrician]

I will explain again
I AM READING ON A MOBILE the lines do not match up...
The 4th line start with "There have been..."

Your second line starts with 'There have been many more.....'.

But no, you choose another 2 lines to respond to.

You baffle me.

 

[DPG]

Second line as in the second sentence. Obviously different size screens will word-wrap differently.

 

[Baddegg]

I am reading it on my phone and I quoted the second line.
I will respond to the next 2 lines
It might be put in language of " the consensus is ...' but it is the same thing in the end.
I mean the consensus from elsewhere- the Scottish Parliament has voted for a referendum so isn't the consensus in Scotland

Scots are denied to choose their own future at the time if their choice.
This is true, the Scottish Parliament is being refused the power / permission to do so.
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It isn't literally being said but is essentially the just of the argument from those who feel they should ( not the Scottish Parliament) decide / deny a referendum.
Scotland is either in an equal partnership and can leave when it chooses or it is not and Scots need to know their place.

I can assure you it’s not the just of my argument or anyone I know ?

 

[the pict]

The attitude of some MP,s is staggeringly anti Scots and not for any reason they can actually verbalise instead they hurl insults albeit when no one other than the intended recipitant can hear but of course if their like minded cronies can hear well so much the better more kudos all round and something to snigger about later , don't believe me check out Mhairi Blacks youtube interview , and this is all because the regard Scotland as a defeated nation and occupied territory, a fatal flaw in what has become the deluded upper class self entitled snob culture who live in the 50,s

 

[Baddegg]

The rich will view anyone who isn’t as beneath them , and as nothing more than an asset....good job the rest of real people don’t feel like em ?

 

[DPG]

The rich will view anyone who isn’t as beneath them , and as nothing more than an asset....good job the rest of real people don’t feel like em ?

Not necessarily. It's all relative - I have more money than some people, but less than others. What is 'rich' to one person will not be to another. And there is a lot of inverted snobbery goes on, when people seem to almost take pleasure in complaining about 'rich people'.

 

[Baddegg]

Completely agree mate, was was being a bit broad but was referring more to the landed elite and such.....if we using a different measurement I’m the richest man alive...I’ve got 4 great kids who make me laugh everyday ?