Should Scotland be allowed another referendum and do you think parliament has a right to deny it?

[baldelectrician]

I am not putting words in to peoples mouths, it's the language such as
'allowing the Scots to have a referendum'

Instead of supporting people to have democracy- remeber the Scottish Parliament is vastly more proportional than Westminster
Boris got elected on a lower % of the vote and a lower % of the seats than the SNP did in Scotland yet he has a mandate but the SNP don't

As I said earlier (on another thread) the UK government keep changing the goal posts about when and if Scotland can decide her own fate.

I am sorry if it comes across as anti-English, it is most certainly NOT.

 

[Baddegg]

@baldelectrician you did state you were anti English, bit harsh but there you go......as for the House of Lords I doubt you’d get much argument against abolishing it down here

 

[DPG]

I can't be bothered with this. You seem like a very bitter individual, and certainly nothing like the Scottish people I know and who I have worked with.

 

[Baddegg]

So what is your reasoning for ignoring the fisrt referendum?....I can’t be just because a politician told a fib surely?......you seem well read and and level headed, little bit obsessed maybe but...you can’t honestly believe any campaign for or against a referendum will be any different next time?

 

[baldelectrician]

It’s OUR country, all of ours.....United Kingdom what affects one affects all......ok ask for a vote poor choice of words on my behalf fueling your fire but I’m sure you understood what I meant mate ?

I understand where you come from, but my point is ,
The Scottish Parliament is democratically elected on a quasi PR system - if it decides to hold a referendum who has the right to block it and why.
Is it up to people other than the Scottish voters (through the Scottish Parliament) to decide their own future? or are they subservient till the end of time?

 

[Baddegg]

I understand where you come from, but my point is ,
The Scottish Parliament is democratically elected on a quasi PR system - if it decides to hold a referendum who has the right to block it and why.
Is it up to people other than the Scottish voters (through the Scottish Parliament) to decide their own future? or are they subservient till the end of time?

So how would you feel/react if you lost another referendum?....be honest!....where does it stop?, and let’s not forget how from an economic point of view at least how destabilising referendums are....uncertainty frightens investors and that’s what you’ve got uncertainty in the future, if frankie gets it across the line there’s no real guarantee that Europe will welcome Scotland with open arms, does it need another dependant?....will there even be an EU? I know you’ll scoff but it’s a possibility and I’m not arrogant enough to suggest that just because the United Kingdom chose to leave, it’s been failing for years,

 

[baldelectrician]

So what is your reasoning for ignoring the fisrt referendum?....I can’t be just because a politician told a fib surely?......

Quite simple:
“When facts change, I change my mind,” John Maynard Keynes famously said

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. These words are usually credited to the acclaimed genius Albert Einstein

Scotland has voted Labour for decades and we seem surprised to get a tory government.
The point of independence is no more Tory governments in Scotland and running our own affairs

A corner pillar of the last referendum was that Scots were told to vote NO was a guarantee of staying in the EU

https://twitter.com/x/status/1133011149803393024

My neighbour is Polish and his wife is German, they both live here, obey the law and pay taxes.
He voted NO in the last Scottish independence referendum, his wife did not vote then.
They would both vote to now be in the EU (as things stand a hard Brexit is on the cards and there is NO chance of Scotland being in the EU, with #IndyRef2 we have a better than average chance)

There are about 40,000 voters passing on in Scotland each year, most of these that pass on are older and predominately NO voters to #IndyRef2
The younger ones are predominately YES (over 60%) so the longer it is between votes the higher the propensity of a YES vote.

Add that to the 180,000 or so EU nationals in Scotland who either did not vote last time or voted NO then you can see why Westmonster is getting a squeaky bum.
If Boris thought that NO would win he would call Nicola's bluff and 'let us choose'

 

[Baddegg]

Don’t forget Boris has to take every body into account....I understand you clearly hate the tories, would rather be a one party state?, dangerous territory that...you seem to have ignored my questions regarding instability and the eu???

 

[baldelectrician]

So how would you feel/react if you lost another referendum?....be honest!....where does it stop?, and let’s not forget how from an economic point of view at least how destabilising referendums are....uncertainty frightens investors and that’s what you’ve got uncertainty in the future, if frankie gets it across the line there’s no real guarantee that Europe will welcome Scotland with open arms, does it need another dependant?....will there even be an EU? I know you’ll scoff but it’s a possibility and I’m not arrogant enough to suggest that just because the United Kingdom chose to leave, it’s been failing for years,

The EU is a side issue for me
I want independence and honestly believe that if we were bleeding the UK dry (as they suggest) the Tories would drop us like a hot potato

Why force someone to stay in a marriage that does not want to be there, not much of a partnership of equals

You seem to be forgetting Nicola is a means to an end- once we get independence the SNP will disappear like snow off a dry stone wall.

 

[Baddegg]

The EU is a side issue for me
I want independence and honestly believe that if we were bleeding the UK dry (as they suggest) the Tories would drop us like a hot potato

Why force someone to stay in a marriage that does not want to be there, not much of a partnership of equals

You seem to be forgetting Nicola is a means to an end- once we get independence the SNP will disappear like snow off a dry stone wall.

C’mon I only target Nicola because it’s easy to do so!...lazy of me I know but I like a laugh...I believe the great billy connelly coined the greatest phrase in politics....”anybody who wants to be a politician should automatically be barred from being one!” Or words to that affect ?......I’ve heard you argue the bleeding dry case before, where are you referring that from?......I’m also a bit disappointed in the present climate that anyone of your clearly educated mind would hate or detest anyone that badly purely for a different set of ideals or beliefs...I dint want Scotland to leave but would be the first to shake yours of frankies hand should you succeed in a fair and democratic way......now c’mon what would you say to all the voters that are concerned for Scotland’s economic stability should frankie succeed??

 

[baldelectrician]

See - needing to ask for permission to have a decision for your country, stay in your place. I am most certainly anti English, when we did family holidays we went to Torbay as the weather is decidedly warmer and I prefer to stay in the British Isles. When we are independent I will prefer to holiday here as well. The democratically elected Scottish Parliament should have the right to decide when and if a vote tom leave the UK is held Simple as that.

Just read my thread and cannot believe what I typed, CORRECT VERSION BELOW
please accept my apologies.

See - needing to ask for permission to have a decision for your country, stay in your place.
I am most certainly NOT anti English, when we did family holidays we went to Torbay as the weather is decidedly warmer and I prefer to stay in the British Isles. When we are independent I will prefer to holiday here as well.
The democratically elected Scottish Parliament should have the right to decide when and if a vote to leave the UK is held Simple as that.

 

[Baddegg]

Are you sure you’re not a politician @baldelectrician?....you’ve dodged,avoided and evaded more questions than a Tory minister on a Sunday morning BBC politics show! ?

 

[baldelectrician]

Definitely not a politician, chose not to even think about standing as I am not a robot and openly disagree on some SNP policies.

Here's a politician from Ireland getting involved in the mix

 

[Baddegg]

As before mate, what would you say to a Scottish voter who was fretting over the financial implications of leaving?.....what is Scotland’s proposal for the vast eu sums she’ll need to find?, and what happen if, and it’s a genuine possibility, the remainder of the uk decide that they don’t fancy Scotland having the pound as a new and uncertain entity there’s a strong possibility of devaluation of the currency?......What would Nicola say to that?......I’m also a bit concerned that you want the abolition of the Tory party and by your own admission the SNP will be dropped as a political entity for being useless,essentially leaving Scotland with the Labour Party, more and more a socialist party these days....

 

[baldelectrician]

As before mate, what would you say to a Scottish voter who was fretting over the financial implications of leaving?
Scotland is financially better off than the whole of the UK, Scottish GDP is ESTIMATED not calculated as most of the items used are calculated on a per capita basis, not an actual basis.

.....what is Scotland’s proposal for the vast eu sums she’ll need to find?
This is only if Scotland decides to join the Euro, the only way to join the Euro is to join the ERM - joining the ERM is entirely voluntry

and what happen if, and it’s a genuine possibility, the remainder of the uk decide that they don’t fancy Scotland having the pound
It's not up to the UK who uses Sterling, the UK can prevent Scotland from using the Bank of England as lender of last resort.
Scotland will set up their own Scottish £ and peg it to Sterling in the initial years (like the Republic of Ireland did with the Punt)

as a new and uncertain entity there’s a strong possibility of devaluation of the currency?
Scotland is a net exporter of goods

.....What would Nicola say to that?..
Not up to her, up to the Scottish Parliament and who the Scots elect as First Minister

....I’m also a bit concerned that you want the abolition of the Tory party
No, in an independent Scotland there will be Tories, Lib Dems, Labour etc the difference is that the parties will have separate headquarters based in Scotland who will not be controlled using a London and South East agenda

and by your own admission the SNP will be dropped as a political entity
Politics will realign in Scotland - more like the rest of Europe, coalitions will be the norm- no single large party with full control (better for democracy)

See comments above in red

 

[Baddegg]

See comments above in red

I get that but to the average voter that’s just words with no clear explanation, people aren’t as daft as politicians would like or like to believe.....all that is is a --- for tat argument with no real reference as to how Scotland would achieve this.....estimated is a fancy word for guessing....to my mind this is where they fail, all politicians I mean, people are onto the media and lip service and no longer believe things because a pepper or person of perceived authority say them, so please an example of how?

 

[baldelectrician]

I get that but to the average voter that’s just words with no clear explanation, people aren’t as daft as politicians would like or like to believe.....all that is is a --- for tat argument with no real reference as to how Scotland would achieve this.....estimated is a fancy word for guessing....to my mind this is where they fail, all politicians I mean, people are onto the media and lip service and no longer believe things because a pepper or person of perceived authority say them, so please an example of how?

I agree that estimates are poor but almost ALL the figures come from UK departments, maybe I am cynical but if the actual figures showed Scotland was a basket case they would be all over the media.

The following chart is from before oil etc, the UK stop gathering actual accurate data on Scottish income etc about then (it is not linked to the fact that the SNP were formed about this time).

 

[Baddegg]

I agree that estimates are poor but almost ALL the figures come from UK departments, maybe I am cynical but if the actual figures showed Scotland was a basket case they would be all over the media.

The following chart is from before oil etc, the UK stop gathering actual accurate data on Scottish income etc about then (it is not linked to the fact that the SNP were formed about this time).

So to anyone born from 1975 onwards you’d show them that and say we are better off going it alone?....at a time when the world are at least discussing phasing out fossil fuels particularly in the motor industry?....I don’t think you’re MAYBE a bit cynical mate shall we just take that as a given ?
[automerge]1592307340[/automerge]
How many Scottish people depend on earning they living in England and take that money home with em?.....you can’t expect that to continue surely?....
[automerge]1592307577[/automerge]
I personally know off at least one jock who intends to spend his working life down here in the south and then retire back up to Scotland and who can blame him I’d love to do it.....what would you tell these people?

 

[baldelectrician]

So to anyone born from 1975 onwards you’d show them that and say we are better off going it alone?....at a time when the world are at least discussing phasing out fossil fuels particularly in the motor industry?....I don’t think you’re MAYBE a bit cynical mate shall we just take that as a given ?
[automerge]1592307340[/automerge]
How many Scottish people depend on earning they living in England and take that money home with em?.....you can’t expect that to continue surely?....
[automerge]1592307577[/automerge]
I personally know off at least one jock who intends to spend his working life down here in the south and then retire back up to Scotland and who can blame him I’d love to do it.....what would you tell these people?

The stats are till 1920, after then they were not done and then 'estimated'

I will give one example.
HS2, Crossrail, Thames gateway etc- all this is accounted as UK infrastructure spending and 10% is 'estimated' to Scotland. The reality is that other than UK power network connectors (to bring green energy to the rest of the UK) there is almost NO UK infrastructure spend in Scotland from Werstminster

How many Scottish people depend on earning they living in England and take that money home with em?.....you can’t expect that to continue surely?....
Don't call me Shirley ....
This happens at present - there are different tax rates in Scotland now, the same thing happens in Northern Ireland / Republic of Ireland and it all works.

I personally know off at least one jock who intends to spend his working life down here in the south and then retire back up to Scotland and who can blame him I’d love to do it.....what would you tell these people?
I would tell them ' Welcome to Scotland'

Talking about fossil fuels - Scotland has over 30% of EUROPE'S renewable potential, this can be sold across the sea to mainland EU giving a steady income stream (I am talking about wave as well which is constant).
This is the future

 

[Midwest]

My feelings are people’s should be free to do what they think fit within the law, and for the good of all. Majority should have the say so. You should run with what the majority have decide, for a suitable period of time, like an elected government. Things like Brexit would have a different period of reflection, not withstanding the EU would have us back in the next decade for example. But say perhaps ‘we’ decided, to rejoin in say 20 or 30 years time, then we could should debate that.

Same for Scottish Independence, a vote was held and the majority made that decision. You should run with that for a period of time, before re considering. You can’t just want a revote because it didn’t work out the way you wanted. I was a remainer, but have accepted the vote to leave, it would be ridiculous to say let’s have another referendum then another referendum then another. Some point, a decision has to be made.

I’m see myself as British not English. I would be concerned for all, if we saw Scotland leave the Union, as I would any other of the Home countries. I’m not sure how England would survive on its own, and how the demise of the UK would affect the other Home countries.

I think Scotland should decide its future; but they’ve already decided once to remain. You’ve mentioned Brexit has changed Scottish opinion about the Union, but Scotland is out. Why not wait and see how things work out, you see to have most of your own autonomy, why do you want to break up the Union.