Discuss Should Scotland be allowed another referendum and do you think parliament has a right to deny it? in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net
That's the pointI don’t want to go it alone.......and don’t know any English that do, come to that I don’t know any Scottish that do either.......?
Oh god not again......YOU had a referendum........Scotland voted to stay........I’m gonna tell you something know that will blow your mind as well.........politicians lie...ALL of them not some of em ALL of em ?
Mate honestly the only people with that mindset are you....there are no (ok none I know) English with that attitude, your sense of being repressed is holding you back......I can’t believe I’m gonna let you in on another secret in one evening but here goes......the English quite like the Scottish ?.....I know!Translation:
We are your imperial masters, it does not matter how you vote, what you say you WILL be subservient to us and do as we say.
We gave you one vote- democracy is now dead, shut up and know your place you sweaty Jocks.
have I left anything out ?
why doesn’t frankie ask for a vote
It’s OUR country, all of ours.....United Kingdom what affects one affects all......ok ask for a vote poor choice of words on my behalf fueling your fire but I’m sure you understood what I meant mate ?See - needing to ask for permission to have a decision for your country, stay in your place.
I am most certainly anti English, when we did family holidays we went to Torbay as the weather is decidedly warmer and I prefer to stay in the British Isles.
When we are independent I will prefer to holiday here as well.
The democratically elected Scottish Parliament should have the right to decide when and if a vote tom leave the UK is held
Simple as that.
It’s OUR country, all of ours.....United Kingdom what affects one affects all......ok ask for a vote poor choice of words on my behalf fueling your fire but I’m sure you understood what I meant mate ?
So how would you feel/react if you lost another referendum?....be honest!....where does it stop?, and let’s not forget how from an economic point of view at least how destabilising referendums are....uncertainty frightens investors and that’s what you’ve got uncertainty in the future, if frankie gets it across the line there’s no real guarantee that Europe will welcome Scotland with open arms, does it need another dependant?....will there even be an EU? I know you’ll scoff but it’s a possibility and I’m not arrogant enough to suggest that just because the United Kingdom chose to leave, it’s been failing for years,I understand where you come from, but my point is ,
The Scottish Parliament is democratically elected on a quasi PR system - if it decides to hold a referendum who has the right to block it and why.
Is it up to people other than the Scottish voters (through the Scottish Parliament) to decide their own future? or are they subservient till the end of time?
So what is your reasoning for ignoring the fisrt referendum?....I can’t be just because a politician told a fib surely?......
So how would you feel/react if you lost another referendum?....be honest!....where does it stop?, and let’s not forget how from an economic point of view at least how destabilising referendums are....uncertainty frightens investors and that’s what you’ve got uncertainty in the future, if frankie gets it across the line there’s no real guarantee that Europe will welcome Scotland with open arms, does it need another dependant?....will there even be an EU? I know you’ll scoff but it’s a possibility and I’m not arrogant enough to suggest that just because the United Kingdom chose to leave, it’s been failing for years,
C’mon I only target Nicola because it’s easy to do so!...lazy of me I know but I like a laugh...I believe the great billy connelly coined the greatest phrase in politics....”anybody who wants to be a politician should automatically be barred from being one!” Or words to that affect ?......I’ve heard you argue the bleeding dry case before, where are you referring that from?......I’m also a bit disappointed in the present climate that anyone of your clearly educated mind would hate or detest anyone that badly purely for a different set of ideals or beliefs...I dint want Scotland to leave but would be the first to shake yours of frankies hand should you succeed in a fair and democratic way......now c’mon what would you say to all the voters that are concerned for Scotland’s economic stability should frankie succeed??The EU is a side issue for me
I want independence and honestly believe that if we were bleeding the UK dry (as they suggest) the Tories would drop us like a hot potato
Why force someone to stay in a marriage that does not want to be there, not much of a partnership of equals
You seem to be forgetting Nicola is a means to an end- once we get independence the SNP will disappear like snow off a dry stone wall.
See comments above in redAs before mate, what would you say to a Scottish voter who was fretting over the financial implications of leaving?
Scotland is financially better off than the whole of the UK, Scottish GDP is ESTIMATED not calculated as most of the items used are calculated on a per capita basis, not an actual basis.
.....what is Scotland’s proposal for the vast eu sums she’ll need to find?
This is only if Scotland decides to join the Euro, the only way to join the Euro is to join the ERM - joining the ERM is entirely voluntry
and what happen if, and it’s a genuine possibility, the remainder of the uk decide that they don’t fancy Scotland having the pound
It's not up to the UK who uses Sterling, the UK can prevent Scotland from using the Bank of England as lender of last resort.
Scotland will set up their own Scottish £ and peg it to Sterling in the initial years (like the Republic of Ireland did with the Punt)
as a new and uncertain entity there’s a strong possibility of devaluation of the currency?
Scotland is a net exporter of goods
.....What would Nicola say to that?..
Not up to her, up to the Scottish Parliament and who the Scots elect as First Minister
....I’m also a bit concerned that you want the abolition of the Tory party
No, in an independent Scotland there will be Tories, Lib Dems, Labour etc the difference is that the parties will have separate headquarters based in Scotland who will not be controlled using a London and South East agenda
and by your own admission the SNP will be dropped as a political entity
Politics will realign in Scotland - more like the rest of Europe, coalitions will be the norm- no single large party with full control (better for democracy)
I get that but to the average voter that’s just words with no clear explanation, people aren’t as daft as politicians would like or like to believe.....all that is is a --- for tat argument with no real reference as to how Scotland would achieve this.....estimated is a fancy word for guessing....to my mind this is where they fail, all politicians I mean, people are onto the media and lip service and no longer believe things because a pepper or person of perceived authority say them, so please an example of how?See comments above in red
I agree that estimates are poor but almost ALL the figures come from UK departments, maybe I am cynical but if the actual figures showed Scotland was a basket case they would be all over the media.I get that but to the average voter that’s just words with no clear explanation, people aren’t as daft as politicians would like or like to believe.....all that is is a --- for tat argument with no real reference as to how Scotland would achieve this.....estimated is a fancy word for guessing....to my mind this is where they fail, all politicians I mean, people are onto the media and lip service and no longer believe things because a pepper or person of perceived authority say them, so please an example of how?
So to anyone born from 1975 onwards you’d show them that and say we are better off going it alone?....at a time when the world are at least discussing phasing out fossil fuels particularly in the motor industry?....I don’t think you’re MAYBE a bit cynical mate shall we just take that as a given ?I agree that estimates are poor but almost ALL the figures come from UK departments, maybe I am cynical but if the actual figures showed Scotland was a basket case they would be all over the media.
The following chart is from before oil etc, the UK stop gathering actual accurate data on Scottish income etc about then (it is not linked to the fact that the SNP were formed about this time).
So to anyone born from 1975 onwards you’d show them that and say we are better off going it alone?....at a time when the world are at least discussing phasing out fossil fuels particularly in the motor industry?....I don’t think you’re MAYBE a bit cynical mate shall we just take that as a given ?
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How many Scottish people depend on earning they living in England and take that money home with em?.....you can’t expect that to continue surely?....
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I personally know off at least one jock who intends to spend his working life down here in the south and then retire back up to Scotland and who can blame him I’d love to do it.....what would you tell these people?
You should run with that for a period of time, before re consideringMy feelings are people’s should be free to do what they think fit within the law, and for the good of all. Majority should have the say so. You should run with what the majority have decide, for a suitable period of time, like an elected government. Things like Brexit would have a different period of reflection, not withstanding the EU would have us back in the next decade for example. But say perhaps ‘we’ decided, to rejoin in say 20 or 30 years time, then we could should debate that.
Same for Scottish Independence, a vote was held and the majority made that decision. You should run with that for a period of time, before re considering. You can’t just want a revote because it didn’t work out the way you wanted. I was a remainer, but have accepted the vote to leave, it would be ridiculous to say let’s have another referendum then another referendum then another. Some point, a decision has to be made.
I’m see myself as British not English. I would be concerned for all, if we saw Scotland leave the Union, as I would any other of the Home countries. I’m not sure how England would survive on its own, and how the demise of the UK would affect the other Home countries.
I think Scotland should decide its future; but they’ve already decided once to remain. You’ve mentioned Brexit has changed Scottish opinion about the Union, but Scotland is out. Why not wait and see how things work out, you see to have most of your own autonomy, why do you want to break up the Union.
Another secret coming here mate......lack of respect and ignorance from Westminster is not exclusive to Scotland.,,,,I’m with @DPG......you seem determined to see the world burn and to hell with anyone that doesn’t agree....see ya xMany Scots do not see themselves as British, about 20 years ago 84% of Scots saw themselves as British, recently this was below 60% and is in decline.
This is due to the lack of respect and ignorance from Westminster.
I see the UK going down a bad part and they (the Tories et all) don't seem to care or want to knowAnother secret coming here mate......lack of respect and ignorance from Westminster is not exclusive to Scotland.,,,,I’m with @DPG......you seem determined to see the world burn and to hell with anyone that doesn’t agree....see ya x
The UK government could compromise- the EU have given special dispensation for Northern Ireland to stay in the customs union and single market, Scotland has asked the UK government to request the EU on Scotland's behalf - the UK have refused
Can you imagine if Scotland does leave.....and does Join the EU (can’t see it but...)and the EU give England dispensation due to the land border ?????......I thought the reason for that, is the land border between the two countries, and nothing to do with NI wanting to stay in a trading partnership with the EU?
You have a point there!Can you imagine if Scotland does leave.....and does Join the EU (can’t see it but...)and the EU give England dispensation due to the land border ?????......
I’d imagine that in itself puts Scotland on the back foot for joining.....the EU will never concede that now ?You have a point there!
It's mainly to do with the Good Friday agreement and peace process, the point is that concessions can be made and M Barnier said that they would consider Scotland in the single market if the UK asked for it (no chance of Westminster asking for it)I thought the reason for that, is the land border between the two countries, and nothing to do with NI wanting to stay in a trading partnership with the EU?
One last question @baldelectrician, flogging dead horses and all that...What difference do you see with Scotland and Westminster or Scotland and Brussels?......same horse different jockey I’d have said....
A quick research shows that nearly a million people born in Scotland live in England and nearly half a million people born in England live in Scotland....do you propose passports and visas to visit family members in future.....ultimately for all the politicians bluster this is about people....real life ordinary people.....I think frankie forgets this with her obsession......anyway it’s been great debating with ya and I look forward to your reply but that’s it for me now mate we’ll have to agree to disagree and hope you never catch me in Scotland.....Bit low mate comparing the relationship to domestic abuse, but let’s leave that for another time.....as for leaving the EU anytime you like don’t kid yourself....Greece tried it but we’re essentially starved and scared away from the idea and Scotland for all frankies lies won’t be much more of a financial powerhouse than the other small eu nations, the only reason the uk could pull it off was because of the financial clout we hold, the eu will command you and will not let you leave!...they will wrap it all up in pretty paper but they’ll ensure you’ll be deep in hock to em......wise man once said you’re better off owing a million pounds than a hundred as the banks are less likely to foreclose, the eu is the same but in reverse, the cost of Scotland leaving they bosom would ruin her and they’ll make sure of it......do you see a hard border then or can you see the eu allowing free flowing goods across.....England wales and Northern Ireland will be rubbing our hands together in that scenario....free trade with the rest of the world and cheap goods from Europe!.....? imagine all the goods coming into uk ports and straight over the border and back into the eu!......or do you think bernier et all havnt considered that?
Bit low mate comparing the relationship to domestic abuse, but let’s leave that for another time.....as for leaving the EU anytime you like don’t kid yourself....Greece tried it but we’re essentially starved and scared away from the idea and Scotland for all frankies lies won’t be much more of a financial powerhouse than the other small eu nations, the only reason the uk could pull it off was because of the financial clout we hold, the eu will command you and will not let you leave!...they will wrap it all up in pretty paper but they’ll ensure you’ll be deep in hock to em......wise man once said you’re better off owing a million pounds than a hundred as the banks are less likely to foreclose, the eu is the same but in reverse, the cost of Scotland leaving they bosom would ruin her and they’ll make sure of it......do you see a hard border then or can you see the eu allowing free flowing goods across.....England wales and Northern Ireland will be rubbing our hands together in that scenario....free trade with the rest of the world and cheap goods from Europe!.....? imagine all the goods coming into uk ports and straight over the border and back into the eu!......or do you think bernier et all havnt considered that?
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A quick research shows that nearly a million people born in Scotland live in England and nearly half a million people born in England live in Scotland....do you propose passports and visas to visit family members in future.....ultimately for all the politicians bluster this is about people....real life ordinary people.....I think frankie forgets this with her obsession......anyway it’s been great debating with ya and I look forward to your reply but that’s it for me now mate we’ll have to agree to disagree and hope you never catch me in Scotland.....
Ps....my real name is scott ? oh the irony ????
I think it comes down to stability mate.....they wanted a vote and got one......something changed and you want another vote.....at what point do you stop voting or calling for votes to have votes....they’ll always be a loser that’s democracy....and things will always change that’s life.....@midwest nailed it earlier you’ve not even given it a try yet!If a relationship is one of equal partners then it is mutual, if one partner exerts what is effectively controlling and coercive behaviour then it is unequal and controlling
On the last point - you have no point.
Before the EU there was a common travel area (all the British Isles- including the Republic of Ireland) where people from each part could live, work vote etc.
That existed before the EU and it will continue
There are NO passports and visas to visit people in Eire now and there will not be in the future (this is something that has been agreed between the UK and the Republic of Ireland / EU).
This is another scare story brought up ad infinitum (just like the fiscal deficit to join the EU- which applies to the Euro; not the EU)
I am happy to disagree with you, but the main point you have not answered....
Why does the Scottish Parliament not have the right to decide when and if there should be a referendum?
Reply to Should Scotland be allowed another referendum and do you think parliament has a right to deny it? in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net
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