B

ben2012

ive been lookin at a job and cant decide if this is ok or not, someone else has already put wiring in and i was just looking at something else at the time, but it got me thinking! its a solid floor so no access below and dressed stone with vaulted ceiling above so it looked like it would be difficult to get round! some timber has been fit to the wall and their is going to be some panelling fit to it and skirting at the bottom. now hes on about fitting metal boxes to the wall and then cutting the skirting round these and fitting brass sockets flush on the front. i know that its obviously not going to be 450mm but its not a private dwelling and the sockets would be high enough so as to allow a plug to fit in easily. any thoughts on this?
 
the 450mm rule only applies to new build. as long as the sockets can be used without the appliance flexes being damaged by being too close to the floor, it's fine.
 
i thought it would be but then i know that my old firm always put down that sockets needed moving from skirting boards onto the wall, so i couldnt decide if it was ok or not. thanks for the clarification.
 
You say there's 'timber and panelling' on the wall - so dry lined wall? So why not socket behind panelling, and put them on RCD protected circuit.


what use is a socket behind panelling? unless for use only in cluedo secret passage.
 
If its not a "dwelling" then you wont be worried about Part 'P' or 'M' of the building regs for heights.

You will still have to conform to BS7671 (553.1.6) to ensure the sockets are mounted at a height to minimise the risk of danger/mechanical damage to the plug/socket. That becomes your call as the man designing/installing them. You will have 'designed' the install height taking due cognisance of the environment they are going to be used in so as to minimise any risk!. As ever though it depends on who is signing which part of the electrical installation certificate for design and/or construction as to who is ultimately responsible (liable)!
 
I know it's not a requirement (rcd) - but that's just what I would do to satisfy my own companies concerns with the number of numpties out there who wouldn't think twice about knocking a 6 inch nail above a socket to hang a stag's head or something similar.
 
Who will be using the sockets? Customers (possibly disabled) or able-bodied staff?

Who is using the socket outlets is irrelevant with respect to the RCD protection of the cable, just the outlet.

The poster above who comments on people hitting a 6" nail into a wall, simple answer is sack them for gross incompetence, and unauthorised works.
If they are going to undertake construction related works in a commercial premise, then they MUST be competent.

If they can hit a cable with a nail then they are NOT competent, that is gross industrial misconduct and carries instant dismissal with the associated other issues that go with being that incompetent and undertaking such works that they are not competent or authorised to do, else the incident would never have happened.
 
socket outlets should be RCD protected unless used by "skilled or instructed persons".
 
Who is using the socket outlets is irrelevant with respect to the RCD protection of the cable, just the outlet.

The poster above who comments on people hitting a 6" nail into a wall, simple answer is sack them for gross incompetence, and unauthorised works.
If they are going to undertake construction related works in a commercial premise, then they MUST be competent.

If they can hit a cable with a nail then they are NOT competent, that is gross industrial misconduct and carries instant dismissal with the associated other issues that go with being that incompetent and undertaking such works that they are not competent or authorised to do, else the incident would never have happened.

My comment regarding a 6" nail, was meant to be a light hearted tongue in cheek - I didn't think it would cause raised blood pressure. :smilewinkgrin:
 
No raised blood pressure here, it is just the muppet interpretations of electrical stuff I seem to have to deal with every day, it is just this time, it seems it may have been in jest, which it is not normal.
 
me too. the theakstons and the tramadol have kicked in, so it's time to hit the sleep button on the lappy.
 
Who is using the socket outlets is irrelevant with respect to the RCD protection of the cable, just the outlet.

The poster above who comments on people hitting a 6" nail into a wall, simple answer is sack them for gross incompetence, and unauthorised works.
If they are going to undertake construction related works in a commercial premise, then they MUST be competent.

If they can hit a cable with a nail then they are NOT competent, that is gross industrial misconduct and carries instant dismissal with the associated other issues that go with being that incompetent and undertaking such works that they are not competent or authorised to do, else the incident would never have happened.
I was thinking more about the height.
In a pub you should probably assume 'unskilled' people are going to be carrying out work - pubs are renowned for it.
Add to that drunk customers splashing beer around and I would say RCD protection is a good idea.
 
Just as well there's not a dislike button as I seem to have upset Netblindpaul? I always fit new sockets on rcd's in pubs and clubs these days - nothing to do with regs but I do think it will eventually become a requirement!
 
I was thinking more about the height.
In a pub you should probably assume 'unskilled' people are going to be carrying out work - pubs are renowned for it.
Add to that drunk customers splashing beer around and I would say RCD protection is a good idea.

Also, with the proliferation of all these mobile devices that require charging; in pubs and other public places, where Joe(ess) Public are going to be plugging their chargers in, I think there may well be a good case for having these socket outlets RCD protected.
 
Also, with the proliferation of all these mobile devices that require charging; in pubs and other public places, where Joe(ess) Public are going to be plugging their chargers in, I think there may well be a good case for having these socket outlets RCD protected.

No need for all the hassle & expense of RCDs ........ just stuff some of these “Safety Socket Covers” in.
 
Not upset.

The comment was not aimed at the post, but more the idiots that do work that are not competent.

We must not be aiming for compliance with the idiot, let Darwinian selection sort that out.

Comply with regs/best practice, yes, don't design for the idiot who is incompetent.

Don't put sockets on an RCD unless you have to, they are unreliable, at best, and can cause nuisance tripping.

Undertake best practice design so you can avoid them where possible.
 
Not upset.

The comment was not aimed at the post, but more the idiots that do work that are not competent.

We must not be aiming for compliance with the idiot, let Darwinian selection sort that out.

Comply with regs/best practice, yes, don't design for the idiot who is incompetent.

Don't put sockets on an RCD unless you have to, they are unreliable, at best, and can cause nuisance tripping.

Undertake best practice design so you can avoid them where possible.
One of my old college tutors used to say "there's no such thing as 'nuisance tripping', it's called 'tripping', and if it causes a nuisance then you haven't designed the circuit properly".
I would say in somewhere like a pub there are certain risks you can't avoid, but you can reduce the effects of, eg you could put the socket for the quiz machine on a separate radial with it's own RCBO to the socket with the gambler on it, then when someone spills a pint on the quiz machine they don't get electrocuted to death (clumsy as they may have been) and the person playing the gambler doesn't lose all their money.
Again, behind the bar there are a lot of liquids flying around, but at the same time there is a need for electrical equipment such as fridges; rcd protection can reduce any risk. Likewise in the cellar where the floor will be cleaned with a stiff broom and a hose - you can't eliminate electricity completely, but there's no reason for the staff to get electrocuted for being careless - the chiller can be placed as far out of the way as possible, the sump pump and line cleaning pump plugged into commando sockets, and of course rcds can be a useful tool.
 

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socket in skirting board in new pub
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