Spanish Wiring Regulations

[Bob D Nero]

Not saying the Spaniarrds are the best in the world or even the best in Spain for that matter, however the worst offenders in menorca and where I get most of my work at the moment is rectifying what "British Sparks" have done. There seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the TT system, the locals may bond to earth with bell wire but they do bond, (well most of the time). Ive done houses that have been completey wired in T+E, UK 3 pins, single pole breakers the works. They then look at you like an idiot when you say its all got to come out.
When I get a few minutes i'll post an album of a 30+year old installation updated by a Brit.
I jest not you will be shocked, (I was, a few ttimes

 

[NoSparks]

I'm aware that in spain it is nearly all single core through flexi conduit, and that some modern installations have double pole MCBs but this of course is nothing to do with TT systems, so please enlighten me, what is wrong with T+E, and single pole breakers?

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm pretty sure that the Spanish regulations do not like 1 a bare CPC 2 a smaller CPC.

They may insist that double pole protection devices need to be used as mainly all their systems are TT. The same as I would always use a double pole RCD or RCBO on a TT in the UK. It is far safer to use these when you have an unreliable or high Ra, as a N-E fault may no be picked up quick enough to disconnect a single pole device.

 

[NoSparks]

Are you saying that you would not use an RCD in a spanish board? As you know the usual configuration in the UK is a double pole RCD as the main switch, followed by single breakers. (This is also the configuration in our place in spain - but then we also have a g/y switch live! so one cannot gain too much insight into the Spainish Regs from what is already installed.)

Interesting though about the cpc, although I admit, had I rewired I would have used 3x1.5 singles so would not have fallen into that trap. mainly because pulling T&E into that flexi-conduit would be a night-mair. They would have been Br-Bl-g/y though!

{come to think of it I have never seen T&E for sale in spain}

 

[WilcoxElec]

As a French electricien I would not be able to work on a Spanish installation any more than I would on a British installation - (and I can read and understand the Building regulations in English) . I should think it unlikely that a reputable Spanish electrician would touch a UK installation......unless he was qualified to do so.... Other than the problems with the differences in the qualification requirements - criminal liability - insurance - &c &c - the materials used are likely to be very different reflecting the different building methods - reflecting the different geography and economy.... However, a Spanish electrician would probably be able to get hold of the proper high quality materials he required for the situation at a trade discount - and not rely, say, on a load from Bricodepot/B&Q. I have seen some pretty awful wiring in the UK (almost as bad as I have seen in France -- ) However I know that does not mean that the regulations are poor! I would not dream of replacing am old UK fuse board with Legrand of Hager bipolar breakers .. I would ask a British sparky to do what he does while I made the tea !

It may not be so cheap to do things properly in Spain (as in France) than it is to do things otherwise.

 

[Bob D Nero]

T+E only has a BS standard, there is no EN or harmonised standard, so in Spain it is not allowable. Also T+E has a reduced CPC Spanisg regs state that CPC is same size as L and N.
Pre Shuko spanish plugs were inline Pins with a slight ofsett on the Earth, thus giving polarity, also pre 2002 alot of boards had a double pole diff as a main with 1 x Single pole 16A and 1x10A MCB the individula circuits and socket outlets were then fused individualy on the phase.
Spain uses the Din style Shuko plugs and sockets which unlike the French do not have the protruding earth connection and can therefore be plugged in either way. I assume this is why they specify Double pole in the regs to ensure total disconection of the circuit.

 

[mayfair]

You can actually get a flat cable similar to UK T&E but its really just a flat 3 core cable which they have a habit of running to room lights .........Just and i mean just below the plaster. Fun, Fun, Fun. Pulling 3 x 1.5 into a 16mm tube is not that hard a job, 2.5 and 4 goes into 20mm and 6mm into 25mm tube.

 

[Engineer54]

T+E only has a BS standard, there is no EN or harmonised standard, so in Spain it is not allowable. Also T+E has a reduced CPC Spanisg regs state that CPC is same size as L and N.
Pre Shuko spanish plugs were inline Pins with a slight ofsett on the Earth, thus giving polarity, also pre 2002 alot of boards had a double pole diff as a main with 1 x Single pole 16A and 1x10A MCB the individula circuits and socket outlets were then fused individualy on the phase.
Spain uses the Din style Shuko plugs and sockets which unlike the French do not have the protruding earth connection and can therefore be plugged in either way. I assume this is why they specify Double pole in the regs to ensure total disconection of the circuit.

I was going to say, that the use of DP breakers has a lot to do with non polarised wall outlets and plug tops... Same sort of regulations that govern the German installations....

 

[WilcoxElec]

I was going to say, that the use of DP breakers has a lot to do with non polarised wall outlets and plug tops... Same sort of regulations that govern the German installations....

There is probably much more to it than that! If by “DP” you mean Bipolar circuit breakers, then you should regard the UK as exceptional in the use of single pole circuit breakers in the tables of protections (consumer units). I suspect there are reasons for this which do not apply in Spain or many other places.

In France for a larger property in monophase I am often required to use three separate RCDs in the same table/board (i.e. two type AC and a type A). The overcurrent circuit breakers (disjoncteurs) I use must be bipolar and of good quality. Single pole are not permitted and so are not so generally available and would be impractical and awkward to wire in anyway.

 

[Bob D Nero]

In Spain as well 1 RCD can only protect 5 Circuits, therefore anything over and above "Potencia Basica", (Basic Supply) has to have more than one RCD. Its difficult to get single pole MCB's here as well, which is why the majority of the ones I come across are MK or Crabtree.

Also, but I can't find anything definitive in the 17th, When I was but a mere Padawan Electrician and the 15th Edition was still the word of God, My Jedi Master Spark always wired TT systems with DP Breakers, (Alot of farms and out of the way houses in the North Riding).
Mind you, he also said the best test equipment was the back of your hand and an AVO8, and that if you needed to use a mouse you already had too many cables in.:confused5:

 

[WilcoxElec]

That is what it is all about.... Spanish adaptation of the regs practice and materials are probably, like the French, put together with countryside supplies in mind, supply cables suspended across fields - a TT schema - and lots of 3-phase agricultural motors for pumps and stuff. I have seen a UK consumer unit with monopolar thingies put in a barn conversion here - designated as dangerous the whole place had to be rewired. (It certainly wasn't done by a UK "Sparky" - other than it had an RCD at the top, it might as well have been an old fuse board.

In France we have the "Consuel" to sign off an installation for connection - and they check that the RCBO (disjoncteur differentiel) are not overloaded.

I cannot see any reason not to use bipolar circuit breakers anyway, except, of course, they are not so cheap if they are any good, and many of the better makes are not available in the brico shops.

 

[Engineer54]

There is probably much more to it than that! If by “DP” you mean Bipolar circuit breakers, then you should regard the UK as exceptional in the use of single pole circuit breakers in the tables of protections (consumer units). I suspect there are reasons for this which do not apply in Spain or many other places.

In France for a larger property in monophase I am often required to use three separate RCDs in the same table/board (i.e. two type AC and a type A). The overcurrent circuit breakers (disjoncteurs) I use must be bipolar and of good quality. Single pole are not permitted and so are not so generally available and would be impractical and awkward to wire in anyway.

No ....not exceptional at all. Most of Europe use the German schuko scrapping earth type Euro plug tops that are not polarised, Even France allows the use of the unearthed Euro socket for double insulated /Class 2 appliances. so it's a case of DP breakers and RCBO's etc. In the UK, USA, Aussie and many other countries ....ALL outlets and plug tops are polarised, so only the phase conductor, requires circuit protection parameters....

What i would say here, that as France makes use of many rural TT systems, ...It would also make sense to use DP RCDs and RCBO's. ...All countries have there own little quirky ways of doing things, but all will have an end result of keeping the installation safe!!!

 

[WilcoxElec]

No ....not exceptional at all. Most of Europe use the German schuko scrapping earth type Euro plug tops that are not polarised, Even France allows the use of the unearthed Euro socket for double insulated /Class 2 appliances. so it's a case of DP breakers and RCBO's etc. In the UK, USA, Aussie and many other countries ....ALL outlets and plug tops are polarised, so only the phase conductor, requires circuit protection parameters....

What i would say here, that as France makes use of many rural TT systems, ...It would also make sense to use DP RCDs and RCBO's. ...All countries have there own little quirky ways of doing things, but all will have an end result of keeping the installation safe!!!

Well I suppose exceptional or not depends on your point of view! But you are quite right about what is important - the installation must be safe - and here the Consuel is the judge and his quirky ways must be respected. Just to let you know that French standards do not now permit the installation of unearthed sockets --- that is not to say that you will not see them in private properties where there is no requirment to change them. On a new istallation the Consuel should test the earth an all the sockets for continuity back to the main building earth, he would not be impressed by a brand new two pin socket!

 

[morlandg]

I am not a qualified electrician. My basic understanding is that the UK uses a ring mains system for socket outlets and a radial system for lighting. There may be several of each in a house although I think that usually there is one radial lighting circuit downstairs and another upstairs. All protected by it's individual CB in the distribution box. In Spain they have a radial circuit to each room and each one is used for both lighting and power. Each circuit is protected by a CB in the distribution box.
My questions are
1. is my understanding correct (mas or menos)?
2. which system is better?

 

[Bob D Nero]

Hi Morlandg
1 The Spanish system is not so much a radial system though more like what used to be known as a tree system, in that you have a main feed from the fuse board going to an empalme (joint box) from the empalme each socket then branches of the main feed. the rule of thumb is 1 outlet =1 feed from the empalme. Though in practice after the initial install spurs are then run.
The lighting circuits are wired in the same way.
If you are looking at doing some work yourself in Spain (I don't recommend this), be warned in older properties wired pre 2002 colour coding of cables appears to have been optional, all circuits have to be protected by double pole or phase and neutral mcb's (again be warned neutrals have a habit of being connected to any other neutral regardless of circuit).
Washing machines, dishwashers tumble driers etc all have to be on individual circuits.
As to personal preference I like the Spanish system because when its done right its easier to install, easier to maintain and in my opinion safer to work on in the event of a fault. You isolate the faulty circuit disconnect the faulty branch then re-energise the circuit thus leaving the whole system functioning apart from the fault. (Less overall downtime)

Just my humble oppinion

Hope this helps

BoB

 

[morlandg]

Hi Bob
Thanks for your prompt reply. Again I must stress that I am not in any way qualified but as I understand it the essential advantage of a ring mains system for an alternating current is that the voltage will not drop (as much) 'down the line' as that in a radial system.
Another point that I have noticed is that of earthing. The UK system uses metal back boxes screwed to the wall with the front panel earthed to it. There is also the earth wire running throughout the system (same as the spanish system I know) but surely the individual as well as the system earthing of the UK system is better?
As for your good advice re cabling:
I have not tried to work with existing spanish wiring (phew) but I have had to cope with the available coloured wire over here. 1.
I have read the other posts re wiring regs over here and I can see why the outlets must be greater than 1.x metres high - rising damp can be as high as 1.2 metres high which is also why the ayuntamientos insist on external wall cladding with stone.
I understand why you say that the spanish system is " easier to maintain and in my opinion safer to work on in the event of a fault. You isolate the faulty circuit disconnect the faulty branch then re-energise the circuit thus leaving the whole system functioning apart from the fault. (Less overall downtime)" but does that justify an inferior system I wonder??
"Washing machines, dishwashers tumble driers etc all have to be on individual circuits." - same as in the UK yes?
I installed a UK type ring mains system here in my house in Spain and I have enjoyed more than 10 years of excellent service from it. The main (only?) problems I have had with it have been caused by rising damp and at times have been a pain to identify and put right. These were times I wish I had installed a spanish type system or at least one 1.2 metres off the floor!
Thanks for the advice re neutrals - if I understood what you were saying then I would be able to take heed! Sorry - I know your advice was well meant but I'm just a layman. I will (hope) not be fiddling with spanish electrical systems in the future so I should be OK.
Many thanks for your reply and I hope that you and your fellow posters take what I say in the manner that it was meant - I am just a humble non-qualified non-electrician!!
Regards
Graham

 

[blackiel]

Hi Morlandg
1 The Spanish system is not so much a radial system though more like what used to be known as a tree system, in that you have a main feed from the fuse board going to an empalme (joint box) from the empalme each socket then branches of the main feed. the rule of thumb is 1 outlet =1 feed from the empalme. Though in practice after the initial install spurs are then run.
The lighting circuits are wired in the same way.
If you are looking at doing some work yourself in Spain (I don't recommend this), be warned in older properties wired pre 2002 colour coding of cables appears to have been optional, all circuits have to be protected by double pole or phase and neutral mcb's (again be warned neutrals have a habit of being connected to any other neutral regardless of circuit).
Washing machines, dishwashers tumble driers etc all have to be on individual circuits.
As to personal preference I like the Spanish system because when its done right its easier to install, easier to maintain and in my opinion safer to work on in the event of a fault. You isolate the faulty circuit disconnect the faulty branch then re-energise the circuit thus leaving the whole system functioning apart from the fault. (Less overall downtime)

Just my humble oppinion

Hope this helps

BoB

I agree with your outlook there,mate,makes fault finding a lot easier,plus,if one circuit goes down,the others dont,leaves you focussed more on where the fault actually is,....Im looking at buying a small cheap place in spain,any tips on what to look out for,I E,making sure i dont get ripped off,lose me money and actually own the place,....its a small house,in a village,cheap,needs work,can i wire it then get it signed off by a spanish sparks,....Cheers.......

 

[morlandg]

1 The Spanish system is not so much a radial system though more like what used to be known as a tree system, in that you have a main feed from the fuse board going to an empalme (joint box) from the empalme each socket then branches of the main feed. the rule of thumb is 1 outlet =1 feed from the empalme. Though in practice after the initial install spurs are then run.
The lighting circuits are wired in the same way.
Thanks Bob.
Actually despite my arguments for the UK system I am now facing the need to rewire my house according to Spanish regulations! Ironic isn't it?
My house was struck by lightning on 4th November and blew out the whole system.
So Bob - can you clarify a couple of things for me?
You say above that the lighting circuits are wired in the same way - yes but are they kept separate from the power cables? In a separate conduit? Or is it mix and match? Then all the lighting cable would be 2.5 mm same as the power - a problem or not?
Finally can you tell me exactly what the following mean in terms of wiring?
1. Punto de luz cruzamiento
2. Punto de luz cruzamiento 2S
3. Punto de luz conmutado
4. Punto de luz conmutado 4S

Hope you can help....
Graham

 

[Engineer54]

This what my translation tool come up with ...not sure it'll be of any help though...lol!!!

1. Point of light crossover
2. Point of light crossover 2S
3. Exchanged point of light
4. Exchanged point of light 4S

 

[cantabrian9]

we use flexible conduit in spain,it can be the cheap version ,corrugated,or the better quality which has a plastic coating over the corrugations (there are stronger versions but not needed in a house) this rule about stone cladding ? never heard of that one,rising damp is what it says ,a bit of stone stuck on a wall is not going to stop the damp from rising!! i have my sockets at 300 mm and had no problems for 15 yrs (this is an old farmhouse ) you also just run your lighting circuit in the same pipe from the board to a VERY large box and then spider off and maybe a few more VERY large boxes in other rooms and you do your connections in these boxes!!! I DONT !!! i install all of my work the uk way as long as there is a meter and board installed ,also in my house the kitchen area is all MK with neons!!! and the spanish sockets i use for installations are screw connections (not push fit!!) for house hunting, Almeria is CHEAP, but buy an old one cos a lot of newer builds are still classified as ILLEGAL ,and also you need a licence for EVERYTHING (even if your roof is leaking!!) spain is bust so they are trying to get a few bob back!!!