M
millwall ken
Love it, you're in the wrong job mate.
M
millwall ken
Sorry cupcake, I'm married.
G
Graeme Harrold
Its another poorly written regulation within the industry. There is no need to have PAT testing done if your company policy is written to exclude it, e.g. "We replace computers every 3 years......." There is only advised guidelines and a code of conduct for everything, and the only people who impose strict testing schedules are the smart companies who do care about their employees, or insurance companies. Again there is no need for labeling, its only a way to track tested items. Ive had customers request no labeling, I just provide a department/room schedule of tested items.
I dont go below about £1.50 per item, unless there is a load of class 2 items which can be churned out quite rapidly. All items laid out, a class 1 will take just over 3 minutes, inc plug top off, check terminals and then run the rapdi test sequence on the Fluke 6500, test running, lable being written.........
Starting a caravan park next week with the first batch of 156 units containing 6 items, 3 class1 and 3 class 2. Flat rate of £10 per unit and will be done in 6 days. Boring, YES, but an easy start to the year, then another 193 before Easter!!!
I dont go below about £1.50 per item, unless there is a load of class 2 items which can be churned out quite rapidly. All items laid out, a class 1 will take just over 3 minutes, inc plug top off, check terminals and then run the rapdi test sequence on the Fluke 6500, test running, lable being written.........
Starting a caravan park next week with the first batch of 156 units containing 6 items, 3 class1 and 3 class 2. Flat rate of £10 per unit and will be done in 6 days. Boring, YES, but an easy start to the year, then another 193 before Easter!!!
D
Dec
Happy days Graeme, i think i can get bored one week a month for that..... pity there are not an abundance of caravan parks near me :-(
D
Duntestin
I've read this forum for some time and on reading this thread felt the need to contribute!
I've worked in testing companies in various roles from tester to manager over the past 16 years. Only three employers in this time and all of them turning over in excess of £3M per year from testing income, so I think I am safe to call them amongst the testing 'big boys'.
Overall, what I can say is that the companies I worked for did not promote the cutting of corners to achieve high test volumes nor would it be tolerated. I've always believed and worked to the ideal that every man gets paid for the work he does and each person gets the same pay for the same work - whether hourly paid or unit paid, a cheat is stealing from his colleagues and putting their jobs at risk.
Anyway, my main point I wish to make is on the root cause of the advent of cheap testing and high test volumes. Indeed there was one single event which caused PAT test quantities to more than double overnight and I lay the blame for this squarely on the IEE.
To explain, with the advent of the 17th Ed regs as we all know, the standard for circuit protection was to install RCD. In line with this, the CoP for PAT was changed to allow the earth continuity testing to be conducted at a lower test current simply ensuring that the earth circuit of the appliance under test would withstand fault current to allow the circuit protecting RCD to come into play.
So with this revelation, the need for earth test currents of 1.5 times fuse rating were not required as neither was a 5 second test duration for the test. (FYI this test criteria was based upon the spec for a BS1363 fuse, check the graphs!). Net effect was that test sequence was drastically shortened and PAT test kits no longer needed to be mains powered.
So where's the catch you wonder? Simple. Not all circuits are protected by RCD are they!
Point is, where a cheap test company submits a price, they invariably do so on basis of using a battery-powered test kit. But unless EVERY mains circuit is protected by an RCD, they are not sufficiently testing the ability of the earth conductor of an appliance to ensure it can withstand fault current to allow the plug fuse to blow. In an extreme situation, a dead short to casing could occur on an item, earth conductor burns out before fuse blows leaving appliance sat 'live' waiting for a victim!
For me, this is the PAT testing 'scam' and it undermines the whole idea of doing the job in the first place!
I've worked in testing companies in various roles from tester to manager over the past 16 years. Only three employers in this time and all of them turning over in excess of £3M per year from testing income, so I think I am safe to call them amongst the testing 'big boys'.
Overall, what I can say is that the companies I worked for did not promote the cutting of corners to achieve high test volumes nor would it be tolerated. I've always believed and worked to the ideal that every man gets paid for the work he does and each person gets the same pay for the same work - whether hourly paid or unit paid, a cheat is stealing from his colleagues and putting their jobs at risk.
Anyway, my main point I wish to make is on the root cause of the advent of cheap testing and high test volumes. Indeed there was one single event which caused PAT test quantities to more than double overnight and I lay the blame for this squarely on the IEE.
To explain, with the advent of the 17th Ed regs as we all know, the standard for circuit protection was to install RCD. In line with this, the CoP for PAT was changed to allow the earth continuity testing to be conducted at a lower test current simply ensuring that the earth circuit of the appliance under test would withstand fault current to allow the circuit protecting RCD to come into play.
So with this revelation, the need for earth test currents of 1.5 times fuse rating were not required as neither was a 5 second test duration for the test. (FYI this test criteria was based upon the spec for a BS1363 fuse, check the graphs!). Net effect was that test sequence was drastically shortened and PAT test kits no longer needed to be mains powered.
So where's the catch you wonder? Simple. Not all circuits are protected by RCD are they!
Point is, where a cheap test company submits a price, they invariably do so on basis of using a battery-powered test kit. But unless EVERY mains circuit is protected by an RCD, they are not sufficiently testing the ability of the earth conductor of an appliance to ensure it can withstand fault current to allow the plug fuse to blow. In an extreme situation, a dead short to casing could occur on an item, earth conductor burns out before fuse blows leaving appliance sat 'live' waiting for a victim!
For me, this is the PAT testing 'scam' and it undermines the whole idea of doing the job in the first place!
Patman
-
This is particularly confusing as the C o P dosn't actually lower the the test current globally but gives the option of a "Hard" or "Soft" earth bond test - 25A & 100mA respectivly. But any guidance on what equipment is not given.
However its generally recognised that IT equipment should be given the "Soft" test and all other equipment the "Hard" test. Hence the importance of a tester capable of conducting these two forms of test and thus providing "meaningful" test results.
D
Duntestin
Havent got CoP to hand, but no mention of 25A test anymore!
Not sure of edition, but has a purple/lilac cover!
A
Adam W
"... not less than 1.5 times the rating of the fuse up to a maximum of the order of 26A for a period of between 5s and 20s..." p73
Patman
-
Yes "purple/lilac" cover is 3rd (and latest) edition. As NovusSparkus adds in his post.... p73. Check it out !!
B
brizospark
name and shame!!!!
D
Duntestin
Had look and 25a test is indeed mentioned - my mistake.
But my point is that it is not specified as mandatory, it is an either/or with a 20mA-200mA test is it not?
But my point is that it is not specified as mandatory, it is an either/or with a 20mA-200mA test is it not?
Just to add to this. I was in a office recently replacing some light fittings when the pat test guy appeared. He had a bar code scanner and a printer on his belt. He scanned the previous sticker printed a label and on to the next. The whole office in 5 mins. When he had gone I had a look sticker said visual only and a number nothing else. When I queried the office manager she hadn't a clue about proper pat tests. They were paying this joker £50 every 6 months. Apparently he had walked into the office just after it had opened and offered his services. I'm wondering how many other business he has scammed?
A
Adam W
That's PAT testing in a nutshell though - nobody's really that bothered about it until something goes wrong and someone needs to be sued, when the tester just says it was fine at the time of testing.
The office manager probably thinks she's got a good deal because it's all done in 5 mins with the minimal of disruption - nothing is even switched off, and it ticks the box for £50.
The office manager probably thinks she's got a good deal because it's all done in 5 mins with the minimal of disruption - nothing is even switched off, and it ticks the box for £50.
D
Duntestin
But who is really to blame? The scamming 'visual' guy or the muppet who is employing him and supposed to be protecting his staff?
At the end of the day, if the market for scammers wasn't there then these guys would have to work for a living!
At the end of the day, if the market for scammers wasn't there then these guys would have to work for a living!
D
Dcf
666 the number of the beast
100 appliances a day is hard work at the best of times
Their pat tester would b in flames after 300
100 appliances a day is hard work at the best of times
Their pat tester would b in flames after 300
S
surrytom
Im a PAT tester and these comments are just what the trade needs.All too often i get to site and iam immediatly accused of having the "easiest job in the world","money for old rope" or "do you just put stickers on them?"
I work for a large company with many big contracts and we pride ourselves in doing the job properly,i earn just above minimum wage doing the job and believe pay is also a factor in the lowering of quality.we cant compete with the 50p firms.It would be a big help if the customer had a better insight in to what a good tester does and the reasons why,alot of places i visit just let me get on with it and sign my jobsheet when i say im done without checking a single appliance or shadowing me whilst im at work.Im sure most firms have it done just for insurance purposes.
I really like my Job and chose to do it.For me a PAT tester should be qualified to atleast city&guilds 2377,be registered with a governing body and have an on-site assessment.the rule about competent person is far to vague and has given licence to any employee to carry out tests.
firms are not going to pay £2 per item to a fully qualifed and experianced PAT engineer when "John"the part time caretaker can do it for nothing.
every post i see regarding PAT testing is negative due to poor customer experiances from incapable testing firms.
I work for a large company with many big contracts and we pride ourselves in doing the job properly,i earn just above minimum wage doing the job and believe pay is also a factor in the lowering of quality.we cant compete with the 50p firms.It would be a big help if the customer had a better insight in to what a good tester does and the reasons why,alot of places i visit just let me get on with it and sign my jobsheet when i say im done without checking a single appliance or shadowing me whilst im at work.Im sure most firms have it done just for insurance purposes.
I really like my Job and chose to do it.For me a PAT tester should be qualified to atleast city&guilds 2377,be registered with a governing body and have an on-site assessment.the rule about competent person is far to vague and has given licence to any employee to carry out tests.
firms are not going to pay £2 per item to a fully qualifed and experianced PAT engineer when "John"the part time caretaker can do it for nothing.
every post i see regarding PAT testing is negative due to poor customer experiances from incapable testing firms.
B
bcuk04
was doing a PIR at site today when I noticed a PAT tester had turned up, having read through this post the other day I though I'd keep an eye on him and see what he got up to
I passed him when he was inspecting a 30m extention lead, came back a minute later to see it had been stickered and theres no way he'd rolled it all out and back again.
Had a quick look in the kitchen only to find the microwave freshly stickered, when I looked at plug there was no fuseguard in place!
All the time he was walking around he didnt have the necessary lead to plug his tester in then plug appliance into tester, I did have a little chat and found that he could often did 500 items a day with 600 being his best!
I passed him when he was inspecting a 30m extention lead, came back a minute later to see it had been stickered and theres no way he'd rolled it all out and back again.
Had a quick look in the kitchen only to find the microwave freshly stickered, when I looked at plug there was no fuseguard in place!
All the time he was walking around he didnt have the necessary lead to plug his tester in then plug appliance into tester, I did have a little chat and found that he could often did 500 items a day with 600 being his best!
A
Adam W
I did some PAT job which I was told all had to be done in a day because it had to be kept to budget.
There's me working my bottom off from 8am to 5pm, no breaks, pulling all the cables out to check them and get to the plugtops, where interestingly the previous tester hadn't stuck any of his stickers.
No fuse, wrong fuse, reverse polarity, plugtop on T&E... Missed those didn't ya sunshine?
There's me working my bottom off from 8am to 5pm, no breaks, pulling all the cables out to check them and get to the plugtops, where interestingly the previous tester hadn't stuck any of his stickers.
No fuse, wrong fuse, reverse polarity, plugtop on T&E... Missed those didn't ya sunshine?
P
pattesting
Hi I give 2 quotes one is for a full itemized list of all equipment with serial numbers and make and model fuse size and if changed what was one in it and any other repairs done and a certificate for each item.
Or a certificate just for all items tested with no full details done
Or a certificate just for all items tested with no full details done
M
madmac
This again is another example of the colleges and training providers making a quick buck by allowing any Tom,Dick or Harry do the C&G2377 and then tender for work as qualified Pat testers!!! when it was meant, as all of these courses were meant to be, as top up courses for experienced,qualified and competent electricians to get up to speed on the regulations and peculiarities of the job at hand.
M
madmac
Just been on a website for electrical qualifications and definitions.....and they are clearly saying that "domestic installer course" was simply to give kitchen fitters,plumbers,alarm engineers, etc a basic grasp of electrics so they could basically connect their equipment to a fcu! IT IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER DEEMS A DOMESTIC INSTALLER TO BE A COMPETENT ELECTRICIAN!!!
So all you guys that have paid thousands to these scam training providers and then believed their propaganda that you will be a qualified electrician have been lied to!!!
So all you guys that have paid thousands to these scam training providers and then believed their propaganda that you will be a qualified electrician have been lied to!!!
E
Electricalserv
Madmac. No doubt you are correct in saying Domestic installers are not sparks. But the NICEIC are the only ones who call members Domestic Installers.
A Domestic Installer is someone who took a short course....Not to get mixed up with an electrician who works on domestics.
Btw the IET clearly state a DI with level 2 qualifications is not an electrician. A DI with a level 3 qualification is!
M
madmac
Btw the IET clearly state a DI with level 2 qualifications is not an electrician. A DI with a level 3 qualification is!
I also seen that and am now going to raise the issue with the union as the IET formerly the IEE have in the past not been able to clearly define what a competent person was and for them now with no consultation of the industry at large to declare that someone who completes a fast track training programme and then attains level 3 but may have no practical experience, is an "electrician" is quite honestly bordering on the laughable to say the least!
I also seen that and am now going to raise the issue with the union as the IET formerly the IEE have in the past not been able to clearly define what a competent person was and for them now with no consultation of the industry at large to declare that someone who completes a fast track training programme and then attains level 3 but may have no practical experience, is an "electrician" is quite honestly bordering on the laughable to say the least!
E
Electricalserv
Your right but how can you prove experience? From a previous employer? Well I'm sure that won't be as fool prrof as you think. Employers will be more than willing to lie for someones experience
M
madmac
Your right but how can you prove experience? From a previous employer? Well I'm sure that won't be as fool prrof as you think. Employers will be more than willing to lie for someones experience
I agree with you there mate, I wouldn't accept any word of mouth guarantee from a mob because the way this industry is at the moment there isn't an honest one amongst the whole shower! It brings me back to the tried and tested ways of proving experience and competency......Apprenticeship,adult trainee but basically any method where you gain your quals. and experience as a package and not one or the other, then when you get your grading and you want to jump around mobs you use the JIB/SJIB card/grading system as back up( not perfect either I admit), and you go to night school( as i have done on numerous occassions) to gain further qualifications in the industry that an employer will be looking for but over all it is a combination of all these things and not just quals. or someone saying you are experienced.
I agree with you there mate, I wouldn't accept any word of mouth guarantee from a mob because the way this industry is at the moment there isn't an honest one amongst the whole shower! It brings me back to the tried and tested ways of proving experience and competency......Apprenticeship,adult trainee but basically any method where you gain your quals. and experience as a package and not one or the other, then when you get your grading and you want to jump around mobs you use the JIB/SJIB card/grading system as back up( not perfect either I admit), and you go to night school( as i have done on numerous occassions) to gain further qualifications in the industry that an employer will be looking for but over all it is a combination of all these things and not just quals. or someone saying you are experienced.
A
alarm man
cheers mac..:33: i know what you mean tho..:yesnod:
D
DurhamSparky
sorry to move off track a bit!!
why are we discussing the DI and electrician differences on a PAT testing thread!!
why are we discussing the DI and electrician differences on a PAT testing thread!!
A
alarm man
because its not a iso 9000 thread..
M
madmac
Durhamsparky, look at what i wrote on 104.
M
Mark_Burgess
Then your post 105 took it off track.
As said wayyyyyyy back, tight fisted companies are getting the cheapest PAT testers in, all we can do is stick to what we do best and do a thorough job and sleep well at night.
M
madmac
Good on you Mark for keeping up the standard and I know I went off track a bit but it's all part of the bigger picture in our industry.
G
gtrance
Hi, I've read some of this thread with interest and have a couple of questions if that's okay. We run a furniture shop and every so often get a cold call from a pat testing company offering their services. Recently we accepted a quote from one company which was £50 + vat for up to 18 appliances and then 85 pence for every appliance there after. The up to 18 was agreed after we estimated we had about 15 appliances in our shop. Chap came round and tested each appliance by unplugging it, plugging it into a machine of some sort. Looking at the readout from the machine then plugging it back in and stickering it up. It took approx 1-2mins for each appliance. In the end he tested 13 appliances and was out in less than 30 minutes. I didn't notice any visual inspection as such nor do I know if he should have been doing more than what he did. Based on this information, does this sound like a quick rush job which wouldn't have been anywhere near thorough enough? If so, what exactly is the process for testing each appliance? Also, is £50 + vat about right for testing 13 appliances? I notice some of you mention you charge £2-£3 per appliance. Is this on top of a fixed callout fee or do you just expect to have a minumum number of appliances to do and therefore the job is worth it without a callout charge? Many Thanks Greg
Last edited by a moderator:
G
gtrance
I did insert breaks between paragraphs in the above post but they don't seem to be working...
some have call out charge and some have minimum amount of appliances (under20) works in roundabouts.. yes he should do visual before testing as far as dismatle the plug, tugg at the flex etc... but what you have read some people arnt doing this as they seem it tests ok it is ok, but a test machine will not pick up some faults that a visual would..... if you read this thread yo'l see you dont always get what you pay for..
B
Burnt Fingers
We do £50 certificate Fee, plus Inventory fee of £50.00/100 appliances or £100/100+ appliances. Also charge for travel to site, and a basic £1.50 per item. Repairs range from £0.50 for a fuse to £30.00 for replacing a flex.
But no money can compensate for greasy, gross appliances in Fish and Chip shops..........
But no money can compensate for greasy, gross appliances in Fish and Chip shops..........
G
Graeme Harrold
Try a kebab house!!!!
OFFICIAL SPONSORS
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc
Advert
Thread Information
Thread Tags
Advert
Thread statistics
Advert
TrueNAS JBOD Storage Server
-
-
Understanding TrueNAS JBOD Servers: A Comprehensive Guide- Started by Dan
- Replies: 8
-
