The great pat testing scam

[mogga]

simple answer to the EAWR question All of the above but ultimitly the engineer doing the work specialy when the excuse for substandard work would be that all we can afford as for ur Until thats HSE all over at most firms

 

[shane]

I told some bloke recently, £2.00 an item....."How much!!!???" was the reply, "Ive been quoted 75p an item" I explained what I did and what it involved and got the contract.....Shocked at my own sales ability!!!

we as a small company charge for large installations for which we have a few £1.75 per item, for small companies with smaller amount of items we charge 2.00 , i have seen while in large multi floor offices leads double marked with stickers and the same with almost every appliance in there two tests two stickers"" scanking *******s"" so when we tested it there was neerly half the ammount than previously,we pointed out what had been done to which the head of h&s replied thats what the regs said so she was told, i'm not gonna name this company on ere as it is a very large electrical company niciec reg as some of you lads might work for them lol..

 

[Guest123]

30p!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cbw]

The quality of the cheapee testers has to be questioned

I think it is at that stage now where the testing is not performed properly except by those charging a proper rate that actually earns them a living. Unfortunately most company management now is accountant and price driven only price matters not quality or safety

Under the EAWR I wonder who will be left holding the "baby" if something goes wrong will it be the employer, the buyer for buying in sub standard work or the company actually doing the testing, until somebody is killed and the precedent is set we will never know.

Thing is if you buy a £30, 000 car for £5000 in the eyes of the law you are guilty of handling stolen goods as it is obviously nicked at that price.......

If your buying PAT @ 35p an item you are quite obviously buying a substandard service......

are you guilty of breaching HSE regulations???? PROBABLY!

 

[eskimo39]

Bit of an update.
The caretaker said that the testers had claimed 6000 appliances tested,there were 3 blokes and they were there 3 days.
Now if you allow them a standard 8hr day....(somewhat generous as their vans were gone by 3-4pm when I saw them)...that makes 666 appliances per man per day.....or one every 43 seconds.
Not bad going I reckon.

They are obviously taking the ****, I pride myself on my PAT testing capabilities and take pride in my Engineer status. However 43 seconds to test an item, talk about taking their time. I can look at any plug and put a sticker on it in 8 seconds flat go on try me.....

 

[RexT]

Hi guys,

I read through some of the bits and the general theme seems to be that we are being ripped off by people who are not actually doing what they say they do and are charging customers who believe that the job is being done properly. Would this not be a case for trading standards? It would certainly make me sick having done the 2377 course, bought a tester and quoted an honest rate to have this happen.
It sounds like it is a scam and as such should be exposed. Of course it does need the trading standards guys to be actually ineterested and also the customer to be a bit offended to support them.

Good luck,

Rex

 

[UNG]

At the stupidly low prices being quoted I don't see how these companies can cover the overheads of training, test equipment, office equipment and transport. I can understand that money can be made from the repair of the faults found but they don't make much effort to find them when they only have enough time to attach a sticker

 

[Notsosmart]

At the stupidly low prices being quoted I don't see how these companies can cover the overheads of training, test equipment, office equipment and transport. I can understand that money can be made from the repair of the faults found but they don't make much effort to find them when they only have enough time to attach a sticker

Hit the nail on the head there UNG, you would think that these testing companies charging these low prices look at PATesting as a loss leader, making up their profits on repairs. However with the paucity of skill or willingness displayed by their workforce so far I should imagine any repairs would be bodged also. (Or are they claiming for repairs anyway without actually doing anything?)

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Hi guys,

I read through some of the bits and the general theme seems to be that we are being ripped off by people who are not actually doing what they say they do and are charging customers who believe that the job is being done properly. Would this not be a case for trading standards? It would certainly make me sick having done the 2377 course, bought a tester and quoted an honest rate to have this happen.
It sounds like it is a scam and as such should be exposed. Of course it does need the trading standards guys to be actually ineterested and also the customer to be a bit offended to support them.

Good luck,

Rex

I dont think most of those who are on the recieving end of pat testing give a ---- on the quality of work they are getting.To them it is just another inconvenience and expense they could do without.....as long as they have fullfilled their legal requirement to have it done thats all that matters. Thats how these guys get away with it.

 

[m25maintenance]

when nobody is comming behind these lazy asses then i blame the school aswell.

 

[Risteard]

as long as they have fullfilled their legal requirement to have it done thats all that matters. Thats how these guys get away with it.

There is no legal requirement to PAT test per se.

 

[mogga]

errrrr there IS legals under HSE and pewr i fink

 

[Adam W]

The HSE website actually states in as many words (and a picture) that PAT isn't a legal requirement. It can however show compliance with parts 4 (properly maintained) and 5 (proper strength and capability) of EAWR, which is a legal requirement, provided they are 'competent' to do so in order to comply with part 16 (competent persons).
The main reason organisations get PAT done is because insurance companies, licensing authorities etc require it.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.pdf

 

[nickblake]

wire puller i know what you mean brain dead work but little outlay and pays the bill but why do guys like this get away with it, and example i came accross when i was a regional manager for a card co .i hated that job by the way im a tools man , i was doing some work in an office ( all suited up tie and all ,and the company PAT Test guy came round plonked his tester down put the kettle on plugged three 4 way extensions together plugged in all 12 appliances into the leads and then pressed test whilst drinking coffee did nothing else exept put sticker on passed , one of my jobs was to replace a damaged cable on the vac oh he passed it , he left ,so i waited half an hour and rang his boss ,and back he came ,asking me who the hell i was soon shut up when i said i was an electrical engineer made him do the lot again ...without the coffee lol

oh and Aberystwyth university were charging £25.00 per item to test students equipment last year

 

[Phil]

oh and Aberystwyth university were charging £25.00 per item to test students equipment last year

at that price per item i would do it all day long

 

[Deleted member 9648]

at that price per item i would do it all day long

Me too........600 plus appliances per day.....I make that.....well a damn sight more than I'm earning now
Join the queue fella's.

 

[Liberator]

This plug was on an electric heater in the corner of an office, quite literally surrounded by piles (above knee height) of loose A4 sheets and files.. this was done by a well known electrical company in the Rubery area of Birmingham..

The arcing has actually burn a hole completely through the bottom of the plug, Im not sure of the melting temperature of these plugs but I was appalled.

The owner told me that the electrician doing the testing said he didn't need to open the plugs, it was just a PASS/FAIL on the tester.

When I did my City & Guilds PAT testing course, they never once mentioned or showed the students how to open, check, or fit a plug!!

 

[nickblake]

Stupid thing is how often do we come accross situations like that , i had exactly the same situation on a plug for a kettle ,red sticker on the kettle and the plug , yet they still used it , well did untill i cut the plug off, that stopped them , walked across the road bought a new kettle at £7.50 from tesco,s ,cheaper than the place burning down

 

[Phil]

i was supprised by the amount of people that pulled a face on the first day in the workshop on the 2330 when they had us doing plugs and commando plugs ect. they were all going this is rubbish, you get the gist... well when they came round to examing what had been done by at least 75% lets just say they had to go back to the bench and re-do them. was a lot quieter the second time round and a lot of embarrassed faces

 

[Liberator]

Recently during an interview with a large PAT testing company I was told that they expect 1,100 assets inspected and tested per week and that they believe it is quite achievable on many sites, and suggested that they might offer bonuses beyond 1,100 assets.

This means they were aiming at 220 units per day.

You can't say that its impossible to 200 tests a day, I can quite easily pull off 200 tests on a good day in the right environment.

It really varies, it depends on what PAT testing eqpt you use, your method of logging results, and mostly the environment you are working in.

Lets just say you enter an IT room for a large company, and you find 3 plastic crates full of spare IEC power leads, you telling me you couldn't knock out 200 tests in 3-4 hours just sitting in a chair at a desk?

On the flip side of the coin, if you're testing all of the equipment for a Mechanical/Electrical Facilities maintenance company, and its all 110v/400v tools, leads and the kind then I will struggle to hit 140 tests a day, sometimes less.

I don't like people saying if you're doing 200 tests a day, then your just slapping stickers on without testing. Those peeps saying that are either jealous, getting the wrong environments, have not developed the most efficient systems to carry out PAT testing from liasing with the clients, developing a labelling system, carrying out the testing, etc, or are just not motivated to work with a sense of urgency about them.

I heard somebody quote me a figure of 400 tests a day for one-person.... now I feel they must be just sticking labels everywhere without testing. But thats just because I feel I have developed the best systems available for PAT testing effectively and efficiently.

Maybe Im wrong, I dunno.

Also, I will only take a couple of "smoke breaks" during a full day of PAT testing, I never eat or stop for lunch as I feel this makes me sluggish and slow.

 

[Guest123]

i was supprised by the amount of people that pulled a face on the first day in the workshop on the 2330 when they had us doing plugs and commando plugs

That was my first day on the 2360 too.

 

[Phil]

funny how the noisy ones go quiet, and most of the ones complaining were in the trade and "i already know how to do a plug im not stupid" aaah how quick was that shown to be untrue

 

[Guest123]

We were all 16 year olds at the time and you can imagine most of their attitudes......this is boring......cant we do something else etc.


A lot did drop out after 2 weeks or so, and we were day release!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Its so common. I charge £2.00/appliance because I hate it but still have plenty of customers - we have an honest approach - test when required - and that can mean extending test periods if we have data to suggest frequency of use - and we repair at the time of test where required. I have seen companies just sticker everything and it makes me sick.

It will take an MP's relative to be injured before they tighten it up like Part P. At the moment anyone with a spare £200 can attend a bogus course and go off supposedly competent.

 

[RexT]

Hi Burnt Fingers,

Yes I believe you are right. It probably will take some thing like the death of an MPs relative to tighten it up. Isnt that how Part P started?
Best wishes
Rex

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Part P: I think - I might be wrong, originally was brought in to try and prevent kitchen fitters from running rings (or more likely radials and spur spurs) by shortest distance - you know, those diagonnal wild --- runs you see in kitchens and extensions.

This was shortly after the daughter of an MP (I think) was killed after trying to drill a hole in her kitchen a good way away from sockets.

I might be wrong like I say, but that story has stuck with me. I kinda hung up my sidecutters at Part P until now - most of part P is just good practice really - they should have just regulated kitchen fitters.

 

[UNG]

It will take an MP's relative to be injured before they tighten it up like Part P. At the moment anyone with a spare £200 can attend a bogus course and go off supposedly competent.

Sounds like Part P. Part P didn't tighten up anything apart from a tax loophole. I have seen to many BS 7671 non compliant installations done with part P notification to realise the previous government was part of the if you can't beat them join them culture and created a scam to remove money from hard working electricians pockets

What PAT testing needs is for a duty holder or two to be given the maximum sentence which I believe is £20,000 and/or 6months in one of the HM hotels for failing to provide the proper duty of care to their employees and allowing someone to be seriously injured

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Forgive my lack of understanding of Part P, UNG, I hung up my tools before then and went to communications...haven't seen any domestic since...

 

[RexT]

Hi UNG,

I think you are right. There does seem to be a money culture only and as you say, it is really down to how it is policed. Some very good points and well put.

Best wishes,

Rex

 

[Liberator]

Sounds like Part P. Part P didn't tighten up anything apart from a tax loophole. I have seen to many BS 7671 non compliant installations done with part P notification to realise the previous government was part of the if you can't beat them join them culture and created a scam to remove money from hard working electricians pockets

What PAT testing needs is for a duty holder or two to be given the maximum sentence which I believe is £20,000 and/or 6months in one of the HM hotels for failing to provide the proper duty of care to their employees and allowing someone to be seriously injured

" [FONT=&quot]The operator of the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) must pay nearly £500,000 in fine and costs after a
member of the public fell on the track and was crushed to death by a train.[/FONT]"

I see about 4-6 stories a week like this, highest fines I've seen for injory/death is £1million pounds, and prison sentences inline with manslaughter/murder.

This is since the Corporate Manslaughter / Corporate Homicide came into Act and would be the same for deaths caused due to negligent PAT testing.

These 50p a test boys will find themselves coming unstuck soon, and it won't be the clients being fined, it will be the PAT companies doing the work. Directors & Engineers.

At least Im confident I won't be finding my way there....... not only that, the additional cost in complying, and making sure I won't get into hot water causes increase in the cost of PAT testing.

Under old laws, The fines were £5,000 per offence (nothing states that 4 offences are the max, i.e. £20,000. I have spoken directly with magistrate and crown courts in reference to this a couple of years ago, but its all changed now)

Touch wood, I haven't been called in front of a Coroners Court, but its something we all have to be prepared to do, because we can all end up there, all it needs is for a death in a clients site, our fault or not. And if it was a fault on one of our systems of work, we have to prove everything was done right.

 

[UNG]

"
These 50p a test boys will find themselves coming unstuck soon, and it won't be the clients being fined, it will be the PAT companies doing the work. Directors & Engineers.

While the PAT company may be liable the client would IMO be liable also for placing an order for the sub standard work and not checking it is up to the required standard

 

[Liberator]

I agree that they should be partly held responsible, but by rights if they can prove that they thought they were hiring a competent, insured outside company to handle this aspect of their health and safety then it's the pat company that us responsible.

After all, if u agree to test and inspect 120,000 appliances for a big company or council at 50p a test then that pat company surely must be competent and no judge would see differently.

Just the fact that a company advertised as a pat provider demonstrates fraudulent intent if the end result is that Pat testing is carried out correctly.

Hawkesworth protect themselves by ensuring that every pat test engineer are "self-employed" but they will come unstuck because the definition of self employed is that u can accept or refuse work whenever u choose an that u don't just work for one employer.

Hawkesworth tells u that you're working 6 days a week, and doesn't really help u understand all of the implications of being self-employed.

If he ever comes under scrutiny by the taxman or the work of "his" engineers ever comes to light, all of his hard work and lovely profit will be for nothing.

 

[UNG]

I agree that they should be partly held responsible, but by rights if they can prove that they thought they were hiring a competent, insured outside company to handle this aspect of their health and safety then it's the pat company that us responsible.

After all, if u agree to test and inspect 120,000 appliances for a big company or council at 50p a test then that pat company surely must be competent and no judge would see differently.

I think if some one was letting a £60,000 contract then I assume they would undertake "Due Diligence" on the company being employed to undertake that work. At 50p per appliance I would certainly be wary if I was letting a contract, even with the current economic situation you don't hear of the pound shops discounting to 50p for some of the tat they sell

I have always been told ignorance is no defence

Just the fact that a company advertised as a pat provider demonstrates fraudulent intent if the end result is that Pat testing is carried out correctly.

Again this is an area dicussed quite a lot on this forum with the "Visual Check" being accepted as the lowest form of PAT test when no actual testing takes place

Hawkesworth protect themselves by ensuring that every pat test engineer are "self-employed" but they will come unstuck because the definition of self employed is that u can accept or refuse work whenever u choose an that u don't just work for one employer.

Hawkesworth tells u that you're working 6 days a week, and doesn't really help u understand all of the implications of being self-employed.

If he ever comes under scrutiny by the taxman or the work of "his" engineers ever comes to light, all of his hard work and lovely profit will be for nothing.

The tax investigation team are only a phone call away!

 

[Burnt Fingers]

Just to clarify, in case a lynch mob is on it's way, my reference to "bogus courses" was exclusive of the C&G - I referred to the type that have eight people being taught at £200 a go, one day, ten questions (you can ask for help) and discount PAT testers on the way out.

Sorry if any C&G Holders were offended, was not meant to ..

 

[RexT]

Hi Burnt Fingers,

Thank you for your comments and I am not offended by what you have said. I believe the important thing is that the person who does the testing does it correctly and ensures safety. I have taught the 2377 course at college, as well as the 2391 and the certificates that City and Guilds supply, in my opinion, are of value.
When someone has passed a course and an exam, it is only when they operate in the 'wide world' that the truth emerges. The people can be seduced by the money and pressured in to doing things that are not correct and are 'short cuts' which can result in the tested products not being tested correctly. The time versus the number of items tested is normally one pressure as well as the competition offered by those who do not test correctly and have been referred to as 'label stickers'.
My advice is not to join the label stickers club and to try to charge correctly for the work you do. I know its tough but at least you can sleep at night and hopefully the good guys will win.
Best wishes,
Rex

 

[PAT Testing]

You clearly had a bad experience with this pat tester, not all pat testing companies are the same, message from PAT Testing | PAT Testing in London | Cheap PAT Testing Prices | PAT testing Prices

 

[telectrix]

I do some PAT testing , not a lot, and try to do it right. One day I timed myself for 1 hour, proper test, fill in label, enter details on report sheet. I did 12 appliances. Based on a sensible hourly rate of £20 - £25, that equates at £2 per item approx. Anyone doing it at for 50p to 70p per item is either not doing it properly or has a very cheap lifestyle.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I agree telectrix......the above link looks very professional....but IMO it is not possible to charge 70p an appliance,do a thorough job, and earn a living.

 

[RexT]

Hi wirepuller,

You are quite right about your comment. Its right to do a thorugh job and earn a living. When it goes wrong is where people find out the fasct that has been no savings doing it 'on the cheap and missing out some bits'.
As I said I hope we keep the job right and keep the trade.
Best wishes
Rex

 

[PAT ukLtd]

I work as a mobile Dj and before looking into PAT Testing the guy I used had one of these 'Supermarket Type' guns to provide the stickers, however it only had on it the date of the test and an item id number, no initials or any other info, i'm sure this wouldn't meet the legal requirements. To his credit he did actually test each bit of my equipment,and failed a couple of extension leads and changed some fuses, but maybe it was because I was standing in the same room making him a cuppa. Anyway only probably took 90 mins for I think was £90-£95. He was telling me about a large job he had been on in Bolton for several days and I wonder out of sight if he would just label equipment without testing......what I want to know is how do these Label only cowboys get on when it comes to producing the paperwork. My test sheets all show the readings of each test result.....so do they make them up?