Toilet facilities on the job

[oscar21]

Whats everyone's take on this, turned up today to start a re-wire and yet again there wasn't any toilet on the job so we ring the builder and he wasn't interested, we offered to pay for a portaloo if he gets it dropped off but he said tough, you either go home or go to a shop.

So obviously we packed everything up and left the job, we've now brought forward our next job and are starting it tomorrow so even if he relents and gets a toilet we can't do anything for 3 or 4 weeks and that's if we even want to go back.

I just don't get it, why would someone want to go to all the trouble of finding someone else, getting them to re-price it, waiting for them to have an available slot and still have the possibility that they won't start without a toilet anyway. Or they could just pay £28 per week and have toilet facilities on the job. Its madness.

 

[nicebutdim]

Or.sn empty cement bag .I believe this is what the guys use working at the top of those big crains

Can't help wondering what they were doing with cement up there.

 

[DPG]

Maybe that's why this guy has been here all day today - waiting for a bag of cement....

Travel disruption in Sheffield after man climbs to top of crane

The man climbed up into the cab of the crane on Pond Street on Monday night, police say

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[nicebutdim]

Maybe that's why this guy has been here all day today - waiting for a bag of cement....

Travel disruption in Sheffield after man climbs to top of crane

The man climbed up into the cab of the crane on Pond Street on Monday night, police say

www.bbc.co.uk

Or climbed up in the hope of stealing one.

 

[nicebutdim]

Maybe construction companies have taken to hiding building supplies in tower cranes. It's not the sort of place people would look when deciding to help themselves to bricks for their new barbeque.

 

[oscar21]

It seems by the odd reply on here that some people are happy to pee in a grid or dump into a bucket. Can I put it this way, building work isn't cheap for the homeowner, you regularly read posts about customers complaining that a price was £50k or more than they thought, builders don't do stuff on the cheap, they certainly aren't doing the job for buttons. Asking for a toilet isn't a challenging thing to do for them either, they just pick up the phone and one is dropped off a couple of hours later, it takes 5 minutes of their time, they could even delegate if they feel more important. toilets are £28 a week, they could even leave the old one in or get the plumber to put a temporary one in, not too dificult to arrange either.

So at the end of the day, they expect me to ---- in a bucket so they can save £28 a week on a £100k job. Would you really do that for them?

 

[Mike Johnson]

I know it's an old thread, but the latest CDM&Welfare regulations apply to homeowners as well, where welfare facilities legally must be provided.

 

[littlespark]

Wee in a bucket? Now you’re just taking the ----…

 

[davesparks]

I know it's an old thread, but the latest CDM&Welfare regulations apply to homeowners as well, where welfare facilities legally must be provided.

Interesting, do you have any links to that legislation?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Welfare: Overview - HSE

An overview of who, what and where you must provide welfare facilities for construction workers.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[nicebutdim]

Welfare: Overview - HSE

An overview of who, what and where you must provide welfare facilities for construction workers.

www.hse.gov.uk

That states obligations for contractors and commercial clients.

 

[Mike Johnson]

CDM Regulation now apply to householders not just contractors and commercial.

 

[Mike Johnson]

No idea why it posted twice, perhaps just to drive the point home?

 

[nicebutdim]

From the link you've provided it appears as though it applies to contractors and commercial clients organising work in a domestic premises. It may be the case that householders are now expected to conform to CDM regulations, but nowhere on the page is that made apparent.


Edit: The page linked below relates to domestic clients and doesn't appear to pass the responsibilities to those clients as you have suggested.

Construction - Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 20015 - What do I need to do? - Domestic clients: roles and responsibilities

The Health & Safety Executive's (HSE) information for clients on their legal responsibilities under Construction Design & Management (CDM) Regulations

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[Mike Johnson]

Welfare: Overview - HSE

An overview of who, what and where you must provide welfare facilities for construction workers.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[nicebutdim]

Reading that page again, I can see an argument for the client taking responsibility if they choose not to appoint a contractor or other agent who would act as the designer, but this is not expressly stated. It would also be rare for a somestic client to not appoint someone to this role where fairly major works are undertaken and I'm not sure that a new kitchen or other small scale work falls under these regulations.

 

[nicebutdim]

Welfare: Overview - HSE

An overview of who, what and where you must provide welfare facilities for construction workers.

www.hse.gov.uk

It may be the case I'm being thick, but that's the link you posted previously and it pertains solely to commercial clients and contractors.

 

[davesparks]

Welfare: Overview - HSE

An overview of who, what and where you must provide welfare facilities for construction workers.

www.hse.gov.uk

That sets out requirements for commercial clients and contractors.

Householders are not, generally, commercial clients and so those rules do not apply to them.

There is separate guidance, linked above, for domestic customers explaining that the client responsibilities pass to the principal contractor on domestic work

 

[Mike Johnson]

Most householders have an office facility in the home and would therefore be classed as a commercial client for the purposes of the Regulations, especially if they are claiming tax benefits for using part of the home as an office.

Only if a Principal Contractor has been appointed by the Client would the requirement for the welfare facilities pass to them, if not the responsibility for the welfare facilities remains with the Client, commercial or domestic.

 

[nicebutdim]

Only if a Principal Contractor has been appointed by the Client, if so the requirement for the welfare facilities passes to them, if not the responsibility for the welfare facilities remains with the Client.

The regulations don't make this clear and any such inference is assumed.

I've posted the relevant link above

 

[nicebutdim]

A domestic client is any individual who has construction work carried out on their home, or the home of a family member, that is not done as part of any business. While CDM 2015 places client duties on commercial clients in full, such duties for domestic clients normally pass to:

• the contractor, if it is a single contractor project, who must take on the legal duties of the client in addition to their own as contractor. In practice, this should involve little more than what they normally do in managing health and safety risks
• the principal contractor, for projects with more than one contractor, who must take on the legal duties of the client in addition to their own as principal contractor. If the domestic client has not appointed a principal contractor, the client duties must be carried out by the contractor in control of the construction work

If a domestic client has appointed an architect (or other designer) on a project involving more than one contractor, they can ask them to manage the project and take on the client duties instead of the principal contractor. The designer then takes on the responsibilities of principal designer and must have a written agreement with the domestic client, confirming they have agreed (as principal designer) to take on the client duties as well as their own responsibilities.

Any designer in charge of coordinating and managing a project is assumed to be the principal designer. However, if they do not have a written agreement with the domestic client to confirm they are taking on the client duties, those duties automatically pass to the principal contractor.

 

[DPG]

Most householders have an office facility in the home and would therefore be classed as a commercial client for the purposes of the Regulations, especially if they are claiming tax benefits for using part of the home as an office.

Only if a Principal Contractor has been appointed by the Client would the requirement for the welfare facilities pass to them, if not the responsibility for the welfare facilities remains with the Client, commercial or domestic.

'Most householders have an office facility '

No. No Mike sorry.

 

[Mike Johnson]

During the last few years most office workers have worked at home, this has carried on post pandemic.

 

[DPG]

During the last few years most office workers have worked at home, this has carried on post pandemic.

Not quite the same thing

 

[James]

During the last few years most office workers have worked at home, this has carried on post pandemic.

sorry but out of 67 million people in the uk.
there are about 30 million people in the uk working

so only 45% of the population are working at all, if half of them worked in offices (optimistic at best) then you are down to 22.5% of the population.
and if half of them had the luxury of being able to have an office at home you are down to 11%

so i don't think the statement above is of any importance, 90% of the uk workforce is unlikely to have a home office.

Edit: figures have come from uk Office of national statistics and have been approximated to make the maths easier.

 

[davesparks]

Most householders have an office facility in the home and would therefore be classed as a commercial client for the purposes of the Regulations, especially if they are claiming tax benefits for using part of the home as an office.

Only if a Principal Contractor has been appointed by the Client would the requirement for the welfare facilities pass to them, if not the responsibility for the welfare facilities remains with the Client, commercial or domestic.

The definition of a commercial client on the HSE website is:

"A commercial client is any individual or organisation that carries out a construction project as part of a business."

So unless the construction project is being carried out as part of a business then the domestic client does not get defined as a commercial client just because they have an office space in their home.

 

[pirate]

Just my tongue in cheek take on this...
Suppose I have some guys working on my house, so purely a domestic situation..do I, as the instructing principal, have to provide toilet facilities?
Why would I not? Ok, so some random guys take a dump maybe once a day in my loo...is it really a problem? I have 2 loos, so not a problem really.
However...if the guys here are plumbers, they have to disconnect the loo, what then? I cannot let them use my loo, so do I have to provide them with some temporary facility by hiring a porta-loo firm?
Near to my house is a very well respected company who often do work in the estate. They have offices 500m away. Even so, they always bring in a portable loo for any job that is over a week, such as a complete kitchen and bathroom refit. They charge plenty, but it suits them and the customer. My near neighbour had his kitchen and 2 bathrooms remodelled recently. he went on holiday for a fortnight. The contractors brough it a potable loo on day one, even though their office was so close.Simple, cost effective, sensible for all concerned. maybe just a premium service, but clearly they though it worthwhile.
I had to have a contractor in recently, and i provided him with toilet facilities too. ..I gave him the key to my sister's holiday flat which is next door!

 

[Flowboy]

I never do a no. 2 on site, especially domestic. I have always been taught that is not on. Yet I have seen some persons using a sink for a cockle-doodle-doo (rhymes with!) There are some animals on site sometimes. No bladder control, just don't feel the need during the working day.

That is disgusting! TBH I try not to use domestic customers loo for a no2 but sometimes you just gotta go! Leave it as you would like to find it, i.e. clean.
In addition; no riddle all day? I'd say you're not drinking enough water! That said, younger lads usually have better prostates than old timers!

 

[Flowboy]

Funnily I was back working on a job today (doing bits & bobs) & this customer is one of the few I've come across in decades of domestic work, who insisted that we didn't use the wc.* There's never been more than 3 of us on site at any time, mostly 2. There isn't really room for a full portaloo & if it were on the street it'd likely be found upside down next day. The guy running the job arranged a portapotti in the garden shed. OK for a riddle but someone has to empty it, not such a nice job if no2s have been done. I assume he takes it home to do... *However... what's the bluddy matter with people?!? We all have to do it, what's so precious about their toilet? Do they think we all go home to live in filth?? I can understand if the garden is a quagmire you don't want muddy trades tramping thru the house, but a couple of tidy polite workers (I hope you are!) shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
I use my van for weekends away & have a portapotti in it, so its been handy now & then on a job but NO! YOU can't do a dump in it! ;-)

 

[Mike Johnson]

The definition of a commercial client on the HSE website is:

"A commercial client is any individual or organisation that carries out a construction project as part of a business."

So unless the construction project is being carried out as part of a business then the domestic client does not get defined as a commercial client just because they have an office space in their home.

Can't agree with that definition, if a domestic client is carrying out their business at home then by any definition that is a commercial enterprise.

 

[7029 dave]

Funnily I was back working on a job today (doing bits & bobs) & this customer is one of the few I've come across in decades of domestic work, who insisted that we didn't use the wc.* There's never been more than 3 of us on site at any time, mostly 2. There isn't really room for a full portaloo & if it were on the street it'd likely be found upside down next day. The guy running the job arranged a portapotti in the garden shed. OK for a riddle but someone has to empty it, not such a nice job if no2s have been done. I assume he takes it home to do... *However... what's the bluddy matter with people?!? We all have to do it, what's so precious about their toilet? Do they think we all go home to live in filth?? I can understand if the garden is a quagmire you don't want muddy trades tramping thru the house, but a couple of tidy polite workers (I hope you are!) shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
I use my van for weekends away & have a portapotti in it, so its been handy now & then on a job but NO! YOU can't do a dump in it! ;-)

I would have said sorry for being human. Just goes to show what type of people they are. As the song goes people are people!

 

[oscar21]

thought I would re-visit this one, yet again we turned up to a job and no toilet on site, it was an upstairs flat with no garden or anything outside. I wouldn't mind but the soil pipe was there, even the flexi but someone had ripped the toilet out and binned it. The joiners were peeing in bottles and taking it home with them, we were only there for 2 days but the first thing I did was pop to toolstation across the road and buy a basic toilet and fitted it, the I took it with me when we were done.

I might fit it in the back of the van, tank underneath and a flap to empty it when we are going quickly on the motorway like the trains do.

 

[UNG]

I might fit it in the back of the van, tank underneath and a flap to empty it when we are going quickly on the motorway like the trains do.

Trains haven't emptied toilets onto the track for many years

 

[nicebutdim]

Trains haven't emptied toilets onto the track for many years

That might explain why they often smell so terrible.

 

[pc1966]

That might explain why they often smell so terrible.

You may laugh, yes you probably will, but a friend of mine found the chemical toilet in her father's camper van had not been emptied for 6 years!

 

[James]

You may laugh, yes you probably will, but a friend of mine found the chemical toilet in her father's camper van had not been emptied for 6 years!

bet that had a serious festival toilet vibe!!!

 

[nicebutdim]

We don't have the necessary options for reacting to that.