Junction boxes

[waitees]

Hi

just getting last job ready to be inspected by the niceic. Got a question regarding upstairs lighting. I have wired all the lights in 3 plate, got to the hallway and they are spots, question is, is it ok to wire switch live and suppy to the spots via a junction box, the juction box wil be by the opening to the loft but under loft boards.

Second question i plan to end the circuit at the bathroom where there is a extractor above the shower in the loft via a vent and also extra low voltage for spots is it ok to put a juntion box in the corner of the loft to switch live extractor and lights which is located in the very corner of the loft. ( i will also put in a isolator for the extractor)

i dont like juction boxes as i want it as neat as poss.

just want to make sure

Thanks

 

[tomKett]

Hi

I am preparing for my inspection next month, my understanding is all inspection boxes must be accessible, therefore cannot be hidden under floorboards.

regards

Tom

 

[cbw]

My understanding is as long as you use maintainance free JBs you are ok, the other option with spots/downlighters is a downlighter junction box that fits inside the downlighter hole and can be pulled back out making it accessable.

Have a look on the TLC web site at ashley junction boxes.

 

[Risteard]

My understanding is as long as you use maintainance free JBs you are ok

In my opinion this would have to be recorded as a Departure from the Regulations.

the other option with spots/downlighters is a downlighter junction box that fits inside the downlighter hole and can be pulled back out making it accessable.

I agree. In practice a junction box is easily accessible by removing the downlighter.

 

[JUD]

In my opinion this would have to be recorded as a Departure from the Regulations.

It's not a departure from the regulations as maintenance free JBs don't have to be accessible.

 

[Risteard]

It's not a departure from the regulations as maintenance free JBs don't have to be accessible.

According to which Regulation?

 

[pennywise]

526.3 might apply according to the manufacturer the sprung loaded connection counts as a compression joint.

 

[Risteard]

526.3 might apply according to the manufacturer the sprung loaded connection counts as a compression joint.

However the Regulation stipulates that it must be made by a compression tool (i.e. crimped connection).

 

[pennywise]

Just going on the manufacturers product spec, I know it says tool, but if the manufacturer has it written in black and white that it is equal to a compression joint and that it complies to the same standards that a crimped connection has to comply too. Think the regs can be slightly ambiguous they can't be totally up to date with terminology and new products at time of printing, and rather than change the wording they just make it a standard of connection.

http://download.hager.com/hager.uk/files_download/guides/junction_box_guide.pdf

 

[Risteard]

Just going on the manufacturers product spec, I know it says tool, but if the manufacturer has it written in black and white that it is equal to a compression joint and that it complies to the same standards that a crimped connection has to comply too. Think the regs can be slightly ambiguous they can't be totally up to date with terminology and new products at time of printing, and rather than change the wording they just make it a standard of connection.

http://download.hager.com/hager.uk/files_download/guides/junction_box_guide.pdf

Departures are permitted only where an equivalent degree of safety is achieved as with compliance with the Regulations. I'm not going to argue whether or not the so-called "maintenance-free" junction boxes offer an equivalent degree of safety, but if it is argued that they do then they must be listed as a Departure from the Regulations because so far as I can tell they do not comply with the Regulations.

 

[JUD]

Departures are permitted only where an equivalent degree of safety is achieved as with compliance with the Regulations. I'm not going to argue whether or not the so-called "maintenance-free" junction boxes offer an equivalent degree of safety, but if it is argued that they do then they must be listed as a Departure from the Regulations because so far as I can tell they do not comply with the Regulations.

559.11.6 Terminations and connections of conductors shall be made by screw terminals or screwless terminals complying with BS EN 60998-2-1 or BS EN 60998-2-2.

Wago connectors (enclosed in choc box) comply with BS EN 60998-2-2 and are also classed as a compression joint.

 

[pennywise]

559.11.6 Terminations and connections of conductors shall be made by screw terminals or screwless terminals complying with BS EN 60998-2-1 or BS EN 60998-2-2.

Wago connectors (enclosed in choc box) comply with BS EN 60998-2-2 and are also classed as a compression joint.

It doesn't mention that they are for the use as a maintenance free connection It's going to have to be an exact wording relating specifically to the clamp terminals and that they are exempt from maintenance and don't need to be accessible. Personally I have no problem with not listing them in the departures they have a BS EN number, if they go wrong I will have Hager to thank They are more reliable than crimps, there is less to balls up, Wrong size crimp, wrong crimper, crimpers not being calibrated, I have seen some really bad ones

 

[Risteard]

Personally I have no problem with not listing them in the departures

Why? It's not like it takes very long to write it in.

 

[pennywise]

Just don't feel the need, my inspector didn't either, personal choice.

 

[Risteard]

Not much point in having a Departures box if people aren't going to write any departures in it.

 

[andekoch]

I agree with pennywise, I dont list my 'wago' boxes as departures. I also see them as more reliable than the average cripm joint forrthe reasons in another post, poor crimps, tools etc.

In my opinion the departures box is for things that really need highlighting. If this is the only departure then fair enough as it at least lets others know that there are junction boxes somewhere.

 

[JUD]

Page 362 BRB.

At the bottom-left of the page in a box.

Junction box to BS EN 60670-22 or BS 6220.
Junction boxes with screw terminals must be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance or, alternatively, use maintenance-free terminals / connections (Regulation 526.3)

 

[Risteard]

I agree with pennywise, I dont list my 'wago' boxes as departures. I also see them as more reliable than the average cripm joint forrthe reasons in another post, poor crimps, tools etc.

In my opinion the departures box is for things that really need highlighting. If this is the only departure then fair enough as it at least lets others know that there are junction boxes somewhere.

Departures are only permitted where they offer at least the same degree of safety as compliance with the Regulations. So something which was not to the standard of the Regulations would not be permitted as a departure and therefore should not be recorded on the relevant certificate.

 

[JUD]

It doesn't mention that they are for the use as a maintenance free connection

I'm used to screw connections - how secure is your clamping system?

The WAGO Cage Clamp® and PushWire clamping systems guarantee gastight, maintenance-free connections every time. Our connectors incorporating these proven technologies have been used in industrial and building services applications worldwide. The company's reputation is built on the high quality and proven performance of our products. For installers, this ensures complete peace of mind.

Wago Lever Connector 4.0mm 3 Pole x 50 by Wago

 

[waitees]

thanks fot all replies , what do you think is best to wire downlights ? with switch line

 

[cbw]

I dont like to use JBs, when I do.....bathroom wiring with fan, kitchen downlighters, if poss I like them to be accessible even though I have used maintainance free. That said not allways possible!

Enjoyed this thread, sorry if I put cat amoungst pigeons!

I wire downlights via previously mentioned Ashley junction box with a switch line and loop in/out, accessible through downlight hole.

 

[waitees]

how do you go about wiring a fan a s/l and feed if you do not use a jb ?

 

[nickblake]

All im going to sauy on the matter is that if they are not clipped and secured then they have to have strain reliefs as do the ashley junction boxes , and if they are in the loft they will be accesable by lifting the boards not like under a laminated floor ,

 

[nickblake]

From the lights SL PL N Cpc to a fan isolator then to a fan , oh and check the manufacturers specification as this may need to be fused at 3 amps

 

[bramboy]

ashley maintence free junction boxes can`t be used in insulation it says on the flap. There good for downlights in the loft then.

 

[pennywise]

Spoke to the IET today they have confirmed that there is a proposal for Maintenance free terminals to be listed in the new amendments within 526 as a maintenance free approved connection method. Just some info nothing else

 

[Risteard]

Spoke to the IET today they have confirmed that there is a proposal for Maintenance free terminals to be listed in the new amendments within 526 as a maintenance free approved connection method. Just some info nothing else

Which confirms what I am saying that they are currently a departure from the Regulations.

 

[pennywise]

Yes you can have that one, then until June

 

[Risteard]

Yes you can have that one, then until June

The Amendment won't come into force this June!

Only a draft for public comment.

 

[pennywise]

Jesus I know that and was assuming which I did correctly that you knew already, do you want me to put down the time as well next year or the time they run the new regs through the printing mill.

 

[Risteard]

Jesus I know that and was assuming which I did correctly that you knew already, do you want me to put down the time as well next year or the time they run the new regs through the printing mill.

My point was that you'll have to wait till next June presuming that it is carried forward into the Amendment. You said I can have that one until June - it's actually until 2011. Not sure what you're getting so worked up about. I wasn't having a go at you.

 

[pennywise]

I know the amendment are coming in next year, I just assumed you knew too, as to which year I was refering to, thats all, I know you meant nothing by it, I was just making light of the accuracy I wasn't trying to make anything of it.