Need to get Commando Socket installed but having trouble to find the right guy

[Sam_Hammersmith]

Hello,
I am looking for some advice please. I want to get a commando socket installed in my front garden to plug in an EV car charging device where the amps is adjustable from 9A,10,,16 and 32A. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/EVDANCE-Charger-Waterproof-Electric-Commando-Black/dp/B0D2QDNWR6?th=1)

I want to keep the connection separate from my main household circuit. I inquired with one of the electrician and he saw the pictures and videos of the house. First, he said that not to have a separate unit for the commando socket and then he said that it should be done in the same unit as house. The house unit is old, so he said that the whole thing will need a replacement and it would cost £1700, which is 3 times higher than my budget. I was told to get a commando socket from a dedicated unit. Can anyone possibly put me in the correct direction here ?

 

[westward10]

32A "commando" sockets are not shuttered and are not suitable for dwellings as per BS7671.
32A "commando" sockets are only suitable for non-domestic installations as per CoP (Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installations 5th Ed).
Either way you should not be fitting one of these to charge an EV at a dwelling.

 

[Sam_Hammersmith]

32A "commando" sockets are not shuttered and are not suitable for dwellings as per BS7671.
32A "commando" sockets are only suitable for non-domestic installations as per CoP (Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installations 5th Ed).
Either way you should not be fitting one of these to charge an EV at a dwelling.

@westward10 - Many thanks. I am going to return this and will be getting a 3-pin Granny charger.

 

[newfutile]

A granny charger is not ideal for permanent charging,more of an emergency system.
Why don't you get a proper ev charger (evse)

 

[Sam_Hammersmith]

A granny charger is not ideal for permanent charging,more of an emergency system.
Why don't you get a proper ev charger (evse)

Energy company refused as not allowed by law, I got 1.5foot public pavement between house and parking. Council refused to give me a planning permit :-(

 

[newfutile]

Anyway you charge it at home will still have a cable across the pavement.
I don't think it's the charger there refusing,more likely the trip hazard from the cable.

 

[Sam_Hammersmith]

Anyway you charge it at home will still have a cable across the pavement.
I don't think it's the charger there refusing,more likely the trip hazard from the cable.

No, by Highway standard law or one of their stupid law, as long as it is covered by black and yellow sturdy cover with certain height width, allowed easy passing of wheelchairs and buggy then one can have any cable underneath that. So, that is the only option I have now.

 

[brianmoooore]

32A "commando" sockets are not shuttered and are not suitable for dwellings as per BS7671.

Fully agree with the EV related comments on this thread, but there are other reasons why a 'commando' socket might be needed in a domestic property. Would you still consider a socket with an interlocked switch to be unsuitable? It's effectively a shutter on the live pins.

 

[westward10]

It isn't a shuttered socket .

 

[littlespark]

I mentioned this on the other domestic/ commando thread….. but what about those adaptor leads for plugging a caravan in at home?
13A plug to 16A (in shuttered) socket.

Are they not actually allowed to be used in a domestic setting?


In fact…. The leads for plugging into EVs aren’t shuttered either.


Not stirring. Just opening discussions

 

[Avo Mk8]

So I'll be tedious - here's the verbiage from BS 7671:2018+A2:2022:

Part 2 Definitions, defines 4 Modes of vehicle charging, Mode 1 using 'standardised socket-outlets not exceeding 16A', and Mode 2 using ' standardised socket-outlets not exceeding 32A'. I'll skip the other modes.
Then Section 722 'Electric Vehicle Charging Installations', has section 722.55.101 saying what the 'standardised socket-outlets' shall be.

Para 722.55.101.0.201.1 gives 6 alternative options, in summary:

(i) A BS1363-2 socket outlet marked "EV" (!)
or
(ii) A socket outlet to BS EN 60309-2 which is interlocked and classified to clause 6.1.5 of BS EN 60309-1 to prevent socket contacts being live when accessible.
or
(iii) A socket outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2 which is part of an interlocked self-contained product complying with BS EN 60309-4 (and classified to clauses 6.1.101 and 6.1.102), to prevent socket contacts being live when accessible
or
(iv) A Type 1 vehicle connector complying with BS EN 62196-2 for Mode 3 charging only
or
(v) A Type 2 socket-outlet or vehicle connector complying with BS EN 62196-2 for Mode 3 charging only.
or
(vi) A Type 3 socket-outlet or vehicle connector complying with BS EN 62196-2 for Mode 3 charging only.

Thus apparently specifying "commando" outlets with an interlock mechanism, or 62196 EV connectors.
Edit: I'm taking this to mean plugging a 'smart charger' into the commando socket, not plugging the car directly into it !!

'Flying lead' with a commando socket not permitted, but tethered lead fitted with vehicle connector is.

 

[brianmoooore]

I'm sitting in the sun in France about 5 miles from the Swiss border and have just had dinner accompanied by half a bottle of red, so don't mind a bit of stirring.
The object of the reg is to prevent accidental or even deliberate contact with live terminals, but what does the reg actually say?

 

[westward10]

So I'll be tedious - here's the verbiage from BS 7671:2018+A2:2022:

Part 2 Definitions, defines 4 Modes of vehicle charging, Mode 1 using 'standardised socket-outlets not exceeding 16A', and Mode 2 using ' standardised socket-outlets not exceeding 32A'. I'll skip the other modes.
Then Section 722 'Electric Vehicle Charging Installations', has section 722.55.101 saying what the 'standardised socket-outlets' shall be.

Para 722.55.101.0.201.1 gives 6 alternative options, in summary:

(i) A BS1363-2 socket outlet marked "EV" (!)
or
(ii) A socket outlet to BS EN 60309-2 which is interlocked and classified to clause 6.1.5 of BS EN 60309-1 to prevent socket contacts being live when accessible.
or
(iii) A socket outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2 which is part of an interlocked self-contained product complying with BS EN 60309-4 (and classified to clauses 6.1.101 and 6.1.102), to prevent socket contacts being live when accessible
or
(iv) A Type 1 vehicle connector complying with BS EN 62196-2 for Mode 3 charging only
or
(v) A Type 2 socket-outlet or vehicle connector complying with BS EN 62196-2 for Mode 3 charging only.
or
(vi) A Type 3 socket-outlet or vehicle connector complying with BS EN 62196-2 for Mode 3 charging only.

Thus apparently specifying "commando" outlets with an interlock mechanism, or 62196 EV connectors.
Edit: I'm taking this to mean plugging a 'smart charger' into the commando socket, not plugging the car directly into it !!

'Flying lead' with a commando socket not permitted, but tethered lead fitted with vehicle connector is.

The CoP states EN 60309-2 socket outlets can be used in non-domestic commercial or industrial situations.

 

[Avo Mk8]

I'm sitting in the sun in France about 5 miles from the Swiss border and have just had dinner accompanied by half a bottle of red, so don't mind a bit of stirring.
The object of the reg is to prevent accidental or even deliberate contact with live terminals, but what does the reg actually say?

722.1 Scope is "this section applies to circuits intended to supply electric vehicles for charging purposes." Does not apply to inductive charging or mobility scooters and similar vehicles of 10A or less.

722.55.101.0.201.1 is "Each AC charging point shall incorporate" and then the list in my previous post pretty well verbatim.
It's not under the 'protection' section 722.53, it's a subsequent section "Other equipment - Socket-outlets and connectors" with apparently the purpose of specifying what socket-outlets/ connectors are acceptable.

Surely reading this drivel is not the best use of your time

 

[Avo Mk8]

The CoP states EN 60309-2 socket outlets can be used in non-domestic commercial or industrial situations.

I know.
There seems an incompatibility until someone explains what I'm misunderstanding.

 

[brianmoooore]

Next question is what's the demarcation between domestic and commercial? I have six blue sockets around the place. Two 32 A for 5 kW tumble driers, two 16 A for a welder ( same welder, but in two different places, a 32A for the ancient arc welder and a 16 A for the caravan I'm in now, when it's parked up at home.

 

[evstruggler]

Next question is what's the demarcation between domestic and commercial? I have six blue sockets around the place. Two 32 A for 5 kW tumble driers, two 16 A for a welder ( same welder, but in two different places, a 32A for the ancient arc welder and a 16 A for the caravan I'm in now, when it's parked up at home.

Many on here will say that compliant = safe. But this explains exactly why that is faulty logic.

If I designate a garage connected to the house as a domestic setting then I am not allowed an interlocked commando. However, if I put a workbench in the garage and designate it commercial now I can. In this situation the location and thus the risk are identical. Surely the spirit of the regulations should be what matter i.e. common sense.

 

[brianmoooore]

Many on here will say that compliant = safe. But this explains exactly why that is faulty logic.

If I designate a garage connected to the house as a domestic setting then I am not allowed an interlocked commando. However, if I put a workbench in the garage and designate it commercial now I can. In this situation the location and thus the risk are identical. Surely the spirit of the regulations should be what matter i.e. common sense.

Agree, but the common sense needs to be backed up by the knowledge and experience to fully appreciate and understand those risks.

 

[evstruggler]

Agree, but the common sense needs to be backed up by the knowledge and experience to fully appreciate and understand those risks.

Well of course but on this forum the prevailing view is that non compliant always means unsafe.

The previous poster doesn’t have a choice of a wall box so his options are the 13A or the commando. He is going to use one or the other anyway because the last option is to use the expensive and horribly inconvenient public chargers.

The 13A is not designed for continuous draw and having used 13A charging myself the pins heat up a lot. The commando on the other hand is designed for continuous draw.

You need to fit a mini cu with type b RCBO and pen fault protection when installing a commando. If you call an electrician and just tell him to fit an outside socket then nothing like that would need to be installed. All in all between the 13A and the commando the commando is a far better choice.

 

[littlespark]

Many on here will say that compliant = safe. But this explains exactly why that is faulty logic.

If I designate a garage connected to the house as a domestic setting then I am not allowed an interlocked commando. However, if I put a workbench in the garage and designate it commercial now I can. In this situation the location and thus the risk are identical. Surely the spirit of the regulations should be what matter i.e. common sense.

"YOU" don't designate any part of a house as domestic or commercial.

That's decided by the local council planning dept.
You may run a business from your house, or have a workshop in the garage... but its still deemed a domestic property


Of course we say "compliant = safe"... that's the whole reason regulations were brought in.


I think what you were trying to say was "compliant = safe, but non-compliant doesn't necessarily mean unsafe"

 

[evstruggler]

"YOU" don't designate any part of a house as domestic or commercial.

That's decided by the local council planning dept.
You may run a business from your house, or have a workshop in the garage... but its still deemed a domestic property


Of course we say "compliant = safe"... that's the whole reason regulations were brought in.


I think what you were trying to say was "compliant = safe, but non-compliant doesn't necessarily mean unsafe"

Agreed compliant = safe, but non-compliant doesn't necessarily mean unsafe

Domestic setting isn’t necessarily domestic property. So if I was to tell an electrician I want a commando in my garage for a small welder I use as a hobby it’s unlikely he will say no to that. Or that I want an hottub in the garden. Also caravan sites have all sorts of commando sockets all over the place, children around etc. Commandos are common in Europe. All I can think of is that the ones writing these rules didn’t think about domestic situations because of how rare it was before electric cars that it would ever come up.

 

[littlespark]

small hobby welders will come with 13A plug.

Hot tubs also 13A plug or hardwired

Caravan sites are not domestic.

We’re not talking about Europe. Our regulations are BS7671…. That’s British Standards.


we’re going round in circles.

Basically, you do what you want. We’ve said it’s non compliant.

Non compliant also means not insured.

Just a final thought for you.

 

[evstruggler]

small hobby welders will come with 13A plug.

Hot tubs also 13A plug or hardwired

Caravan sites are not domestic.

We’re not talking about Europe. Our regulations are BS7671…. That’s British Standards.


we’re going round in circles.

Basically, you do what you want. We’ve said it’s non compliant.

Non compliant also means not insured.

Just a final thought for you.

Not even talking about myself anymore. I am just saying regulations don’t always make sense. In this case there seems to me at least there is a greater risk using a 13A EVSE either on an existing circuit or a dedicated but with direct connection to a MCB with no additional protections.

From everything I have read it comes down to unsafe simply because it is not shuttered even though interlocked achieves the same. I tried to find shuttered commando but don’t know if they exist.

 

[brianmoooore]

Shuttered 'commandos' don't exist.
They don't need to because switch interlocked ones do.

 

[UNG]

Well of course but on this forum the prevailing view is that non compliant always means unsafe.

Any departure from the regs would have to be justified and also noted on the certificate covering the installation work

The previous poster doesn’t have a choice of a wall box so his options are the 13A or the commando. He is going to use one or the other anyway because the last option is to use the expensive and horribly inconvenient public chargers.

Maybe that is something that he should have been considered prior to purchasing an EV

The 13A is not designed for continuous draw and having used 13A charging myself the pins heat up a lot. The commando on the other hand is designed for continuous draw.

The granny chargers IMO were never intended to be used as a permanant charging solution and were designed as a temporary solution were there was no other EV charging option

You need to fit a mini cu with type b RCBO and pen fault protection when installing a commando. If you call an electrician and just tell him to fit an outside socket then nothing like that would need to be installed. All in all between the 13A and the commando the commando is a far better choice.

From your other thread on this subject and your posts in this thread it is quite clear that you don't like regulation
In your other thread you state that you are in a rented property what does your landlord say about you installing a non compliant outlet on his property be it permanant or temporary. The landlord's I work for due to obligations placed on them by the various legislation specifically have clauses in their rental contracts to exclude any modification or changes to the electrical installation by the tenant or others without permission which will not normally be granted
When doing an EICR it can be easy to see where temporary electrical work without the permission of the landlord has been removed and even more so these days when pictures taken at the last EICR can be reviewed

With the current rental legislation I doubt any landlord agreeing to a non compliant outlet being installed on their property when they are required to maintain the installation in good order and have an EICR carried out every 5 years, who would be liable if someone is injured or receives a fatal shock from the addition to the installation

 

[evstruggler]

Any departure from the regs would have to be justified and also noted on the certificate covering the installation work

Maybe that is something that he should have been considered prior to purchasing an EV

The granny chargers IMO were never intended to be used as a permanant charging solution and were designed as a temporary solution were there was no other EV charging option

From your other thread on this subject and your posts in this thread it is quite clear that you don't like regulation
In your other thread you state that you are in a rented property what does your landlord say about you installing a non compliant outlet on his property be it permanant or temporary. The landlord's I work for due to obligations placed on them by the various legislation specifically have clauses in their rental contracts to exclude any modification or changes to the electrical installation by the tenant or others without permission which will not normally be granted
When doing an EICR it can be easy to see where temporary electrical work without the permission of the landlord has been removed and even more so these days when pictures taken at the last EICR can be reviewed

With the current rental legislation I doubt any landlord agreeing to a non compliant outlet being installed on their property when they are required to maintain the installation in good order and have an EICR carried out every 5 years, who would be liable if someone is injured or receives a fatal shock from the addition to the installation

Maybe that is something that he should have been considered prior to purchasing an EV

Maybe he didn’t know. Saw the Council allow charging over the footpath with a suitable cover so should be fine. Granny chargers are not labelled temporary use anywhere

 

[westward10]

Whether they are shuttered or not the CoP doesn't permit them in household situations no doubt reflecting BS7671.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Whether they are shuttered or not the CoP doesn't permit them in household situations no doubt reflecting BS7671.

As yet I haven't seen where BS7671 says BS EN 60309-2 sockets specifically cannot be used in a "household" or "domestic" setting. It does acknowledge they are industrial connectors, but I haven't understood it as a specific "not permitted" requirement (yet!)

I accept that it does specify (in section 533.1.201) that domestic sockets must be shuttered (though there are some exceptions allowed, like clock connectors)

My issue is that BS 7671 Section 722 'Electric Vehicle Charging Installations' says interlocked commando sockets can be used. Are we to conclude those requirements are only applicable to industrial sites. It doesn't say that.

 

[evstruggler]

If we accept that commando are prohibited full stop in residential setting then it’s not based on safety considerations.

A caravan park is a high risk setting for example. Lots of people, children, elderly, disabled etc. Whereas in a drive, garden or garage you have a lot less traffic and it’s much easier to control who is there.

Or a better example a house converted into semi commercial with a restaurant on the ground floor and a residential flat above.

Electricity is electricity. Properly wired in a residential or commercial setting the fire risk is identical.

 

[Avo Mk8]

If we accept that commando are prohibited full stop in residential setting then it’s not based on safety considerations.

My problem is that I don't accept that. In fact the commando type BS EN 60309-2 is actually listed in the table of acceptable sockets.

The issue for me hinges on the bit that says "Every socket for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type....." and whether the use of interlocked commando sockets (contacts isolated before exposure) can be an allowable substitute for shutter protection.

 

[westward10]

As yet I haven't seen where BS7671 says BS EN 60309-2 sockets specifically cannot be used in a "household" or "domestic" setting. It does acknowledge they are industrial connectors, but I haven't understood it as a specific "not permitted" requirement (yet!)

I accept that it does specify (in section 533.1.201) that domestic sockets must be shuttered (though there are some exceptions allowed, like clock connectors)

My issue is that BS 7671 Section 722 'Electric Vehicle Charging Installations' says interlocked commando sockets can be used. Are we to conclude those requirements are only applicable to industrial sites. It doesn't say that.

It is in the Code of Practice for EV charging.

 

[evstruggler]

My problem is that I don't accept that. In fact the commando type BS EN 60309-2 is actually listed in the table of acceptable sockets.

The issue for me hinges on the bit that says "Every socket for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type....." and whether the use of interlocked commando sockets (contacts isolated before exposure) can be an allowable substitute for shutter protection.

My argument on safety stands whether commando is prohibited full stop or interlocked are prohibited.

Again if you have a house converted to a shop or a restaurant downstairs and flats upstairs you wouldn’t normally change the electronics at all but installing a commando in the shop part would be no issue. Danger profile is exactly the same as installing a charger in a driveway, garage etc. If anything given the commando in the shop part would be in the building with the flat itself the risk profile is higher.

Worst case a commando in a residential setting is a breach of the regulations but not anything to do with safety

 

[Avo Mk8]

The 13A is not designed for continuous draw and having used 13A charging myself the pins heat up a lot. The commando on the other hand is designed for continuous draw.

Just as a matter of interest, is the socket you speak of an "EV" rated one? I gather they are designed for o poorer power factor rather than for more current carrying capacity, so not sure if they would behave any differently?
Eg: 13A EV Sockets Compliant with BS 1363-2 EV - https://toughleads.co.uk/products/ev-socket?

 

[evstruggler]

Just as a matter of interest, is the socket you speak of an "EV" rated one? I gather they are designed for o poorer power factor rather than for more current carrying capacity, so not sure if they would behave any differently?
Eg: 13A EV Sockets Compliant with BS 1363-2 EV - https://toughleads.co.uk/products/ev-socket?

The pins on the plug heat up and radiate to the socket. The socket is not burning hot but the pins are immediately when removed from the socket. No burns detectable on the plug or the socket. Don’t know what long term damage it could do if any.

 

[UNG]

Electricity is electricity. Properly wired and tested in a residential or commercial setting the fire risk is identical.

Corrected that for you as it is often overlooked when DIY is involved

 

[sunray]

A granny charger is not ideal for permanent charging,more of an emergency system.
Why don't you get a proper ev charger (evse)

Oh do you maem one of those expensive boxes containing an unshuttered socket?

 

[sunray]

Just as a matter of interest, is the socket you speak of an "EV" rated one? I gather they are designed for o poorer power factor rather than for more current carrying capacity, so not sure if they would behave any differently?
Eg: 13A EV Sockets Compliant with BS 1363-2 EV - https://toughleads.co.uk/products/ev-socket?

What has actually happened here is an admission that sockets complying with BS1363 have not fit for purpose for the last 60+ years. (I deliberately exclude the first 10 years when sockets were made to a much better standard.

 

[evstruggler]

Corrected that for you as it is often overlooked when DIY is involved

Well of course it needs to be tested but I was neither talking about diy nor testing.

The important thing we agree on is that the risk is the same whether in a residential or commercial setting as long as the wiring is done properly and properly tested. I.e what is not accurate is the conflation that non compliant is inherently unsafe. It may be but doesn’t have to be.

 

[evstruggler]

So I have asked another electrician and his response.

That's not correct, it's absolutely fine to use a commando as a charge point outlet in any setting, there isn't any restriction, it's in Section 722.55.101.0.201.1((ii) and (iii) of BS7671, the Wiring Regulations. BS EN 60309 is the standard for commando outlets.

As far as the type of outlets can be used anywhere else in an electrical installation BS7671 isn't so specific, although it mentions some, the general principle is that if something isn't specifically prohibited by a clause in the regs then it's permitted, as long as the installer is content that its no less safe. This is the generic bit on standards for electrical equipment that can be used in an installation. He referenced 511 “compliance with standards”

 

[westward10]

So I have asked another electrician and his response.

That's not correct, it's absolutely fine to use a commando as a charge point outlet in any setting, there isn't any restriction, it's in Section 722.55.101.0.201.1((ii) and (iii) of BS7671, the Wiring Regulations. BS EN 60309 is the standard for commando outlets.

As far as the type of outlets can be used anywhere else in an electrical installation BS7671 isn't so specific, although it mentions some, the general principle is that if something isn't specifically prohibited by a clause in the regs then it's permitted, as long as the installer is content that its no less safe. This is the generic bit on standards for electrical equipment that can be used in an installation. He referenced 511 “compliance with standards”

They clearly do not have the Code of Practice or if they do they have never read it.