Need to get Commando Socket installed but having trouble to find the right guy

[Sam_Hammersmith]

Hello,
I am looking for some advice please. I want to get a commando socket installed in my front garden to plug in an EV car charging device where the amps is adjustable from 9A,10,,16 and 32A. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/EVDANCE-Charger-Waterproof-Electric-Commando-Black/dp/B0D2QDNWR6?th=1)

I want to keep the connection separate from my main household circuit. I inquired with one of the electrician and he saw the pictures and videos of the house. First, he said that not to have a separate unit for the commando socket and then he said that it should be done in the same unit as house. The house unit is old, so he said that the whole thing will need a replacement and it would cost £1700, which is 3 times higher than my budget. I was told to get a commando socket from a dedicated unit. Can anyone possibly put me in the correct direction here ?

 

[evstruggler]

They clearly do not have the Code of Practice or if they do they have never read it.

So we have a terrible situation now for Jo public. First if he wants to use the commando solution he is going to have to ring around a bunch of electricians to find one that doesn’t agree with you and then again do the same thing when it comes to needing an EICR.

 

[UNG]

Oh do you maem one of those expensive boxes containing an unshuttered socket?

That is electrically interlocked and built specifically for purpose

 

[UNG]

What has actually happened here is an admission that sockets complying with BS1363 have not fit for purpose for the last 60+ years. (I deliberately exclude the first 10 years when sockets were made to a much better standard.

But I doubt that when the 13A socket was designed it was envisaged that it would have a 10 - 13A continuous load for possibly 10 hours or more connected to it

 

[plugsandsparks]

No different really from getting legal advice. if you dont like the advice, choose another, eventually you will get the advice you already wanted... lol

Such is the state of endless "regulation changes" making it virtually impossible to carry out an EICR with certainty that installations were compliant at the time but not if installed today. Note how many posts are about EICR's and the endless backwards and forwards between electricians.

All i can say is that with Gas and Fgas, it is straight forward (mainly) and is not changing constantly (apart from the Fgases allowed in new installs, lol

Interesting comparison with gas is the demarcation between Domestic and Non-domestic, I am non-domestic but i have to deal with commercial boilers in large houses because the Domestic guys are not allowed, equally i cannot touch a domestic boiler in a domestic setting even though i would have dealt with that same boiler in a commercial setting. Apart from that its all rosy in the Gas/Fgas world.

 

[westward10]

So we have a terrible situation now for Jo public. First if he wants to use the commando solution he is going to have to ring around a bunch of electricians to find one that doesn’t agree with you and then again do the same thing when it comes to needing an EICR.

There is no terrible situation as far as I can see.

 

[sunray]

There is no terrible situation as far as I can see.

I think the situation is now terrible for the public, the whole system appears to be tightly regulated by BS7671 but every electrician interprets the words in their own way.
I am fairly often assisting with the aftermath of rental EICRs (despite claiming to have retired) and frequently I have to question if the report relates to the installation.
I had one where the outside lighting was listed as a C1 and required total rewiring as the copious amounts of buried direct SWA was only 2 core and relied on the SWA for earthing (along with an extortionate estimate for replacement with 5 core SWA) despite the fact that all of the test results were excelent.
Another C1 related to "fusebox" replacement as not to Amd2; OK a bit scruffily done but an adequately acceptable BG CU with 2 RCDs and only 4 circuits on MCBs (ring, cooker, immersion, lights).

The poor customers are being ripped off left right and centre by the terrible systems in place at the moment. We have the wiring regs, OSGs, COPs, MIs, part P ad nauseum and they contradict each other, one sparks gives an 'opinion' of unsuitability - usually by quoting a few words from one of those, another has a different 'opinion' and quotes from somewhere different.

 

[sunray]

But I doubt that when the 13A socket was designed it was envisaged that it would have a 10 - 13A continuous load for possibly 10 hours or more connected to it

No you are quite right, they were only expected to be running 2 & 3KW heaters around the home, however when first introduced they were manufacturered to a higher standard than they are now and they could cope with running at high currents for long periods of time. Occasionally I come across an immersion heater still running on an origional 13A socket and plug, rather like Triggers broom: 12 new elements, 8 new thermostats, 4 new bits of cable but still the same hot water system.

Basically 'they' have had to upgrade the standard to restore it to how it was originally conceived and initially worked well.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Don't know if anyone else feels the same, but it seems to me from the odd photo's on here of failed accessories, that 13A plugs are more often the culprit than sockets. Particularly around the horrible fuse spring contacts. Sometimes of course just misjudged or inadequate tightening of terminals.
The multitude of cheap plugs on the market doesn't help.

I see the spec for an EV 13A socket now requires a minimum copper content in brass components, which seems a sign that material costs/quality have been pared back over time.

 

[evstruggler]

Do you think ferrules when wiring up the plug would make any difference to heat generation?

 

[westward10]

Don't know if anyone else feels the same, but it seems to me from the odd photo's on here of failed accessories, that 13A plugs are more often the culprit than sockets. Particularly around the horrible fuse spring contacts. Sometimes of course just misjudged or inadequate tightening of terminals.
The multitude of cheap plugs on the market doesn't help.

I see the spec for an EV 13A socket now requires a minimum copper content in brass components, which seems a sign that material costs/quality have been pared back over time.

I think it is give and take and that accessories in general are not the quality known from the 70s. You would be better off getting an old socket from Ebay if you want to put significant load on it.

 

[sunray]

That is electrically interlocked and built specifically for purpose

You mean instead of mechanically interlocked and built specifically for purpose

 

[Avo Mk8]

Do you think ferrules when wiring up the plug would make any difference to heat generation?

I think they can help give a more consistent low value for contact resistance, and probably provide protection to cable strands that might otherwise be damaged by over tightening.
That's assuming ferruling clean unoxidised cable.
If it's old, dirty, highly oxidised copper, I can imagine the pure compression of a ferrule over an oxide coating might result in higher contact resistance than with a screw being driven through the oxide into the bare metal.
So it all depends.
I'm thinking cable/flex has to be contaminated or inadequately torqued to result in significant heat from the terminations.
I don't have any evidence to hand, but I'm sure someone out there will have!

 

[sunray]

I think it is give and take and that accessories in general are not the quality known from the 70s. You would be better off getting an old socket from Ebay if you want to put significant load on it.

If you'd mentioned 50's I'd have been much happier to agree.

 

[Avo Mk8]

If you'd mentioned 50's I'd have been much happier to agree.

Back in the days of plugging your electric iron into the light pendant via a 2-pin to bayonet adapter

 

[sunray]

I think it is give and take and that accessories in general are not the quality known from the 70s. You would be better off getting an old socket from Ebay if you want to put significant load on it.

Some 50+ years ago I was in an old wholesaler in SE London (Fluorescent and Electrical if anyone else remembers them) and wanting non switched double sockets I mentioned how the quality had dropped. He went off out the back somewhere and came back with a box containing 3 DSOs in brown, individually wrapped in tissue paper and the rear part is ceramic. They were at an absolute bargain price, I think 25p per box. I think I asked for 20 boxes, he came back with more than I asked for as he didn't have 20 but did have some in cream (but I think at 38p), I took the lot. Most made by Bill - 2 fixing screws and some by Volex - 4 fixing screws, some rated at 13A per socket and others not labelled

I made a number of 8 way dis boards for my Public Address/Disco/lighting work and still in regular useThe switched socket was an alteration to simplify controlling some disco lights back in 70's.
I used them behind kitchen appliances etc and they have all stood the test of time. Excuse the crepe but this one was used for washing machine and dishwasher for >20 years before the space was reconfigured.



The only failure ever has been physical damage of one used for a heavy extension lead which I used instead of rubber sockets after several had failed on my welder which tended to get chucked around and abused with lumps of angle iron etc

 

[littlespark]

See what happens when a conversation goes round and round in circles…. Something flies off at a tangent….



Referring to one of my earlier suggestions of a 13A plug to 16A commando lead for a caravan….
This wouldn’t be part of fixed wiring…. So not part of bs7671.
Same as an EIC kettle lead. There’s an unshuttered socket on the end.

Bs7671 And the COP deals with the fixed wiring… so in domestic, unshuttered sockets are not permitted if part of the installation…. But as part of an extension lead, it’s ok.

Yes, it doesn’t always make sense, but them’s the rules. We don’t make them, we just have to follow them.

 

[evstruggler]

See what happens when a conversation goes round and round in circles…. Something flies off at a tangent….



Referring to one of my earlier suggestions of a 13A plug to 16A commando lead for a caravan….
This wouldn’t be part of fixed wiring…. So not part of bs7671.
Same as an EIC kettle lead. There’s an unshuttered socket on the end.

Bs7671 And the COP deals with the fixed wiring… so in domestic, unshuttered sockets are not permitted if part of the installation…. But as part of an extension lead, it’s ok.

Yes, it doesn’t always make sense, but them’s the rules. We don’t make them, we just have to follow them.

At least it is a fully comprehensive thread now confirming there is a difference of interpretation when it comes to this and with enough ringing around should find an electrician that will install it for you.

 

[sunray]

See what happens when a conversation goes round and round in circles…. Something flies off at a tangent….



Referring to one of my earlier suggestions of a 13A plug to 16A commando lead for a caravan….
This wouldn’t be part of fixed wiring…. So not part of bs7671.
Same as an EIC kettle lead. There’s an unshuttered socket on the end.

Bs7671 And the COP deals with the fixed wiring… so in domestic, unshuttered sockets are not permitted if part of the installation…. But as part of an extension lead, it’s ok.

Yes, it doesn’t always make sense, but them’s the rules. We don’t make them, we just have to follow them.

So you are suggesting OP ends up with a nicely rated and large blue plug on their charging lead and an adapter cable with a 13A plug and large blue nicely rated socket whereas they could be using a cable without the massive blue bulk?
And OP still has to get a special socket installed.

EDIT: the only electrical qualification I hold is 16th and at the time BS4343 were included for domestic use. I struggle to see how they are now precluded for domestic use on the grounds of being non shuttered when EV chargers are not shuttered, I further fail to follow the distinction between electrical interlocking (whatever that actually means when a 230v test reading can be taken at any time) and mechanical interlocking where all live pins are isolated and cannot be activated without a plug being inserted or withdrawn whilst live.

 

[Avo Mk8]

So you are suggesting OP ends up with a nicely rated and large blue plug on their charging lead and an adapter cable with a 13A plug and large blue nicely rated socket whereas they could be using a cable without the massive blue bulk?
And OP still has to get a special socket installed.

EDIT: the only electrical qualification I hold is 16th and at the time BS4343 were included for domestic use. I struggle to see how they are now precluded for domestic use on the grounds of being non shuttered when EV chargers are not shuttered, I further fail to follow the distinction between electrical interlocking (whatever that actually means when a 230v test reading can be taken at any time) and mechanical interlocking where all live pins are isolated and cannot be activated without a plug being inserted or withdrawn whilst live.

The interlock of a switched CEEform/commando socket with plug is, I believe universally, the activation of power only once a plug is fully engaged in the socket, and the inability to remove the plug without turning off power first. Which is what you said at the end of your post. Interlocking switching power with mechanical insertion is what I took the term "electrical interlocking" to mean (possibly wrongly!)

 

[sunray]

The interlock of a switched CEEform/commando socket with plug is, I believe universally, the activation of power only once a plug is fully engaged in the socket, and the inability to remove the plug without turning off power first. Which is what you said at the end of your post.

That is what I'd describe as mechanical interlocking

Interlocking switching power with mechanical insertion is what I took the term "electrical interlocking" to mean!

To my mind electrical interlocking (and I'm probably wrong on this) is controlled by a electrical signal; such as a voltage applied by the connected car or a data exchange, all of which operate a contactor to provide the power.
To date my experience is limited to using an EV charger has been for supplying a Public Address system. It was an obvious home made cable chopped from a charging lead with appropriate wires taped into 2 bunches to a Ceeform socket and a switch to activate the charger. Initially it didn't work so I buzzed around the pins with a meter and found 240V but as a control voltage rather than power, then repaired the botched cable with no strain relief.

 

[UNG]

To my mind electrical interlocking (and I'm probably wrong on this) is controlled by a electrical signal; such as a voltage applied by the connected car or a data exchange, all of which operate a contactor to provide the power.

The the charge is actioned by the proximaty pilot and control pilot pins

To date my experience is limited to using an EV charger has been for supplying a Public Address system. It was an obvious home made cable chopped from a charging lead with appropriate wires taped into 2 bunches to a Ceeform socket and a switch to activate the charger. Initially it didn't work so I buzzed around the pins with a meter and found 240V but as a control voltage rather than power, then repaired the botched cable with no strain relief.

Given that the control voltage is 12v and also uses PWM control I can only assume that you had found a chargepoint that had been modified in some way for there to be a 240v control voltage

 

[sunray]

The the charge is actioned by the proximaty pilot and control pilot pins

Given that the control voltage is 12v and also uses PWM control I can only assume that you had found a chargepoint that had been modified in some way for there to be a 240v control voltage

I have no idea, the first I'd had any dealings with. The problem was simply a wire pulled from the in line switchs terminal.

 

[sunray]

I am aware of the difficulty of using public charge points for other purposes

 

[Simon47]

I would challenge anyone to explain (in terms that stand up to rational interpretation) how a mechanically interlocked Commando socket is less safe that a cheap 13A socket.
Most 13A sockets only need "something" jabbed into the earth pin hole to make live contacts accessible. From memory (it's a long time since I've used one, and I didn't pay much attention to the details), the Commando needs the plug inserted to push in some locking mechanism - and then either a switch or the plug to be rotated. So harder to override the safety function.

And then there's the simple fact that the regs explicitly say a Commando can be used. So are we really to believe that it's "safe" if provisioned for EV charging, but unsafe otherwise ? Does it become unsafe if I plug in a welder, but then become safe again if used for charging ?

Not to mention, the only thing stopping the unshuttered holes in an EV charger becoming live is some electronics, not built to any sort of formal safety case (thinking in terms of ISO 61508 Functional Safety & it's derivatives), not maintained/tested, so generally not something I'd want to trust.

The only thing left to point out is that if you belive "compliant = safe" then I've a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

 

[Brother Blue]

Most 13A sockets only need "something" jabbed into the earth pin hole to make live contacts accessible. From memory (it's a long time since I've used one, and I didn't pay much attention to the details), the Commando needs the plug inserted to push in some locking mechanism - and then either a switch or the plug to be rotated. So harder to override the safety function.

The commando sockets also only need something suitably sized shoved up them to defeat the interlock, it's often a little lever located at the end of the keyway slot.

i've done it many times to get a set of test probes into the socket.

 

[evstruggler]

The commando sockets also only need something suitably sized shoved up them to defeat the interlock, it's often a little lever located at the end of the keyway slot.

i've done it many times to get a set of test probes into the socket.

Is the purpose not just to protect children from accidentally electrocuting themselves - if it had a switch as well then would need to turn the switch on then the equivalent of lock pick the socket. Realms of ludicrous efforts at safety.

 

[Brother Blue]

Is the purpose not just to protect children from accidentally electrocuting themselves

Interlocked commando sockets were not designed with children in mind at all, they were designed to prevent plugs being inserted or removed whilst the socket is live.
This prevents the plug being used to make or break load current which would cause arcing and potential danger. Whilst the smaller sizes are rated for making/breaking load current there are times when you would want/need to prevent this.

 

[evstruggler]

Interlocked commando sockets were not designed with children in mind at all, they were designed to prevent plugs being inserted or removed whilst the socket is live.
This prevents the plug being used to make or break load current which would cause arcing and potential danger. Whilst the smaller sizes are rated for making/breaking load current there are times when you would want/need to prevent this.

Fair enough but this is more to do with the purpose of the regulations. In the old days all you had was MCBs, then came RCDs, surge protection, Pen fault protection. So if someone has an interlocked socket from years gone by connected to a 32a or more MCB and they plug a charger into it nobody is going to stop them as the regs are not retrospective. So the question is does interlocking provide the same or as as good protection against children inserting things into the socket (not carrying out socket surgery). The regulations say you can install interlocked sockets in a non residential setting but do not categorically say you cannot install interlocked sockets in a residential setting which is where the grey comes in. If there is no safety issue and it’s a grey area then I don’t think the electrician could be blamed for fitting it.

 

[Avo Mk8]

The regulations say you can install interlocked sockets in a non residential setting but do not categorically say you cannot install interlocked sockets in a residential setting which is where the grey comes in.

Westwood has previously explained that the Code of Practice for EV charging says that Commando sockets cannot be used in a domestic setting. I don't have a copy and don't understand the legal standing of this CoP vs BS7671.

BS7671 section 533.1.201 says that domestic sockets must be shuttered. Commando sockets are not shuttered but they can be interlocked. BS7671 does not as far as I'm aware recognise any equivalence.

Then BS 7671 Section 722 'Electric Vehicle Charging Installations' says interlocked commando sockets can be used, in fact it specifies they are to be used. So to me it's all a big inconsistency, not so much as a grey area as complete ambiguity!

 

[mainline]

Westwood has previously explained that the Code of Practice for EV charging says that Commando sockets cannot be used in a domestic setting. I don't have a copy and don't understand the legal standing of this CoP vs BS7671.

BS7671 section 533.1.201 says that domestic sockets must be shuttered. Commando sockets are not shuttered but they can be interlocked. BS7671 does not as far as I'm aware recognise any equivalence.

Then BS 7671 Section 722 'Electric Vehicle Charging Installations' says interlocked commando sockets can be used, in fact it specifies they are to be used. So to me it's all a big inconsistency, not so much as a grey area as complete ambiguity!

Also, The ev code of practice is related to 60309-2

No suggestion that 60309-4 shouldn't be used 60309–4 deals with interlocked type ones.

60309-4
Replace Clause 12 of IEC 60309-1:2021 or of IEC 60309-2:2021 by the following:
12 Interlocks, switches, and their components
12.1 Switched socket-outlets with interlocks shall be so constructed that a plug or appliance
inlet cannot be completely withdrawn from the socket-outlet while the contacts of that socket-
outlet are live, and the contacts of the socket-outlet cannot be made live until a plug or
appliance inlet is in proper engagement. The contacts shall not open or close on load.

 

[PS Electrics]

Also, The ev code of practice is related to 60309-2

No suggestion that 60309-4 shouldn't be used 60309–4 deals with interlocked type ones.

60309-4
Replace Clause 12 of IEC 60309-1:2021 or of IEC 60309-2:2021 by the following:
12 Interlocks, switches, and their components
12.1 Switched socket-outlets with interlocks shall be so constructed that a plug or appliance
inlet cannot be completely withdrawn from the socket-outlet while the contacts of that socket-
outlet are live, and the contacts of the socket-outlet cannot be made live until a plug or
appliance inlet is in proper engagement. The contacts shall not open or close on load.

I was going to make that very point. Lots of discussion about this on the IET forums.

The CoP is technically correct in referencing 6309-2 which is the socket on its own and therefore not shuttered. I would argue that when the CoP states that 60309-2 cannot be used it is specifically referring to the socket on its own and therefore not ruling out the use of these sockets provided they have interlocks.

60309-04 is no less safe than a shuttered socket since access to live parts is prevented. Also BS7671 in the EV section says that 60309-2 with interlocks is acceptable for an EV charging solution. (As someone else mentioned)

I would imagine the same principle as to why the sockets on EVCPs are not shuttered due to the fact that they do not become live unless connected. This was pointed out on a thread on the IET forum.

There is also the general view put up on the IET forums that these sockets are not for Household and general use and therefore exempt from the shuttered requirements. IMO this is a little bit more nebulous but still could be argued and probably used when these are installed in Garages and Workshops attached to domestic dwellings.

Interestingly there isn't consensus on this on the IET forums, which fits in with some Electricians happy to install an interlocked 60309-2 socket for EV charging and others that won't!

I have recently seen a 60309-4 install posted on YT by a NICEIC registered electrical company.

 

[mainline]

I was going to make that very point. Lots of discussion about this on the IET forums.

The CoP is technically correct in referencing 6309-2 which is the socket on its own and therefore not shuttered. I would argue that when the CoP states that 60309-2 cannot be used it is specifically referring to the socket on its own and therefore not ruling out the use of these sockets provided they have interlocks.

60309-04 is no less safe than a shuttered socket since access to live parts is prevented. Also BS7671 in the EV section says that 60309-2 with interlocks is acceptable for an EV charging solution. (As someone else mentioned)

I would imagine the same principle as to why the sockets on EVCPs are not shuttered due to the fact that they do not become live unless connected. This was pointed out on a thread on the IET forum.

There is also the general view put up on the IET forums that these sockets are not for Household and general use and therefore exempt from the shuttered requirements. IMO this is a little bit more nebulous but still could be argued and probably used when these are installed in Garages and Workshops attached to domestic dwellings.

Interestingly there isn't consensus on this on the IET forums, which fits in with some Electricians happy to install an interlocked 60309-2 socket for EV charging and others that won't!

I have recently seen a 60309-4 install posted on YT by a NICEIC registered electrical company.

There are lots of new builds that have a 32amp commando socket installed for EV use.

There doesn't seem to be any sense that it's OK to install them in very much harsher environments, but not domestic ones, with nobody giving any sensible reason for it.