K
Knobhead
It’s only a 3 day add on to the domestic installer course for industrial.
It’s only a 3 day add on to the domestic installer course for industrial.
I don't post on this forum very often but I do have a browse every now and then. This topic caught my eye, Mr Skelton, you are correct, it only seems to be the old boys that have any experience at this type of thing and very few of the younger lads including so called engineers who's excuse is always, "the computer says it'll be ok". Yes but your computers not installing it is it you stupid boy!
Myself, I am 34 and I can say that I am competent in putting together a control panel complete with beta duct of various sizes laid out appropriately to accommodate relays, contactors, em stops, LCD displays, TC's etc etc.
Panels with 110v, 24v, 48v with different coloured insulation for different voltages all in the same panel no problems.
I can wire all of this from drawings and terminate using the correct crimps (or ferrules depending on where your from) bootlace crimps, pin crimps, hook crimps etc. Complete with cable idents on all cores. The back plate earthed to the panel etc. And, and this is a big AND, no pen marks on the back plate. How many times have you seen a plate that has been marked out using a big black sharpie and when it is complete, the first thing you see when you open the panel door is black bloody lines everywhere!
I am not much good a PLC work but it's easy enough with instructions.
Lee, yeah me to mate, I'd spend the first day looking round, drinking tea planning the job. The second day getting the gear together and the third day, well there probably wouldn't be a third day as I'd have been binned!!
I once worked with a house basher and I asked him how long to wire a 3 bed semi, "one day"!!
Ben
Myself, I am 34 and I can say that I am competent in putting together a control panel complete with beta duct of various sizes laid out appropriately to accommodate relays, contactors, em stops, LCD displays, TC's etc etc.
Panels with 110v, 24v, 48v with different coloured insulation for different voltages all in the same panel no problems.
I can wire all of this from drawings and terminate using the correct crimps (or ferrules depending on where your from) bootlace crimps, pin crimps, hook crimps etc. Complete with cable idents on all cores. The back plate earthed to the panel etc. And, and this is a big AND, no pen marks on the back plate. How many times have you seen a plate that has been marked out using a big black sharpie and when it is complete, the first thing you see when you open the panel door is black bloody lines everywhere!
I am not much good a PLC work but it's easy enough with instructions.
Lee, yeah me to mate, I'd spend the first day looking round, drinking tea planning the job. The second day getting the gear together and the third day, well there probably wouldn't be a third day as I'd have been binned!!
I once worked with a house basher and I asked him how long to wire a 3 bed semi, "one day"!!
Ben
3 bed semi?
im guessing that is without making good or all surface stickyback minitrunking
There was an old fella who was from shrewsbury who was in his seventies he was officially retired before i started, but our company took him out of retirement every six months or so to come back over to ireland to program/build robots etc but in the end he had to tell us he was definetly retiring ( i still remember him racing out of the yard in his big jag to catch the ferry), he is replaced now with a young gun in his sixties
Haven't a clue mate, I just told him he can sod off if he thinks he'll ever get a job on my house!
I don't think this is just about building, building is the easy bit, really, the design aspect of the systems is the most onerous, the panel layout is secondary, and the build is straight forward.
It is only the first two that require any design input, the last is just like working from the osg, & the guide to the building regs with some training.
It is only the first two that require any design input, the last is just like working from the osg, & the guide to the building regs with some training.
D
Darkwood
Its kind of a biased pole anyway as its on an Electrical forum so your really asking the majority of how old are the panel builders who are or were Electricians. Now if this was a control systems forum it would read very differently I suspect.
B
Bobster
The majority of the lads in my office range between 30 and 45. With the youngest being 24.
D
Darkwood
Maybe it is reflective then of the true age group percentage but without a larger field pole across differing related forums Ill take the above result with a pinch of salt, all I know is we are already seeing a massive skills hole in this field due to retirement and lack of replacement - this would suggest as does the pole that no-one new is entering the field and all those working in it are too busy already to fill the retiring sector.
Who is this Pole you speak of? Is he the one filling our skills hole? :icon12:
It's nothing a 5 week course can't sort out !!!!!!!! there will be someone sorting out the minimum training needed right now
28, I have done basic PLC stuff in my apprenticeship but as i work in Facilities now there is no requirement for me to do it anymore.
Work with control circuits/safety systems a bit, Have a reasonable ground understanding of them but again rarely go into them in any depth (when required ime usualy on here asking for help LOL)
But I can build basic control panels, Work on door access systems and Fire alarms and I can evem Do a tidy job with Conduits, Trunkings, SWA's and flexs.... But hardly ever touch a T&E
Said it before on another theread, There are many types of Electrician what type you are seems to depend on the Job you do and the experiences you have had.
Work with control circuits/safety systems a bit, Have a reasonable ground understanding of them but again rarely go into them in any depth (when required ime usualy on here asking for help LOL)
But I can build basic control panels, Work on door access systems and Fire alarms and I can evem Do a tidy job with Conduits, Trunkings, SWA's and flexs.... But hardly ever touch a T&E
Said it before on another theread, There are many types of Electrician what type you are seems to depend on the Job you do and the experiences you have had.
L
li150pacemaker
46, have been designing and building control panels for 20 years, from small starters to MCC's, with Siemens, Mitsubishi, Omron and Allen Bradley programming experience
K
Knobhead
I had one manage to bluff his way in to the first interview.
One of my tricks was to give them a quick walk round to see what they would be dealing with. Only about 15 minutes but you could gauge how they would fair if taken on. Someone that would be OK will ask questions about the kit, this one looked like a frightened rabbit.
When we got back to the office I asked if he wanted to carry on the interview. All he wanted to do was get in his car and clear off.
BTW RoB,
It was an old friend of ours PK that gave me the idea of the walk around. Although it was me that asked if I could have a quick walk around when he interviewed me, I think I got the royal tour. No one had ever asked before. At the end he asked if I’d seen anything that bothered be. I think the look on my face said it all, I was comfortable with the place.
After that I took it on board as part of the interview routine.
Hi 41, worked in extrusion lines & vacuum former's & injection molding on machines & ancillary equipment thought i was set for the long term in that field, until got made redundant, still every now & again i get to go back & remove some of the extrusion lines for a company that sells second hand machines. but i started out for myself whilst i was working at the factory & trouble i found i could earn more working for myself than i ever would working at the factory as maintenance engineer.
P
PEG
Like many,i have covered the areas in design,build and repair. I have worked on the large industrial and construction plant,here and abroad,mainly for myself.
More and more nowadays,i get called by lads in the job,to assist,or when things get sticky...not always as 007:icon12: sometimes,two heads are better than one...even if they're sheeps' heads...
I have always loved the chase of a problem,the more intriguing,the better,and absolutely will not stop,till i solve it.
This can not be "taught",on a course,and what i notice,more these days,is the new bloods general lack of grit.
I think those who have alluded to a future skills void,are probably on the ball,but how to pass on those skills,that many older lads on here possess,is a problem.
Some of the best learning i have absorbed,was hard earned,and at no small risk to myself,which obviously is not a benchmark for instruction.
I have no shame in being 50 last year,oldest dad in the playground :icon12: but i think we all have to accept that a huge amount of the experience we amass,leaves this earth with us.
....It's the final part of "Blade Runner",all over again....."like tears in the rain..." :icon12:
More and more nowadays,i get called by lads in the job,to assist,or when things get sticky...not always as 007:icon12: sometimes,two heads are better than one...even if they're sheeps' heads...
I have always loved the chase of a problem,the more intriguing,the better,and absolutely will not stop,till i solve it.
This can not be "taught",on a course,and what i notice,more these days,is the new bloods general lack of grit.
I think those who have alluded to a future skills void,are probably on the ball,but how to pass on those skills,that many older lads on here possess,is a problem.
Some of the best learning i have absorbed,was hard earned,and at no small risk to myself,which obviously is not a benchmark for instruction.
I have no shame in being 50 last year,oldest dad in the playground :icon12: but i think we all have to accept that a huge amount of the experience we amass,leaves this earth with us.
....It's the final part of "Blade Runner",all over again....."like tears in the rain..." :icon12:
G
Geordie Spark
I designed and built a control panel for my Hornby model railway when I was about ten years old.
If I can find them maybe I should send the drawings to the UKRail bloke??? :angel_smile:
If I can find them maybe I should send the drawings to the UKRail bloke??? :angel_smile:
P
PEG
Yesterday morning,i was waiting for the missus,so logged on to pass the time,and ended up following yer mans' trail,she asked what i was absorbed in,just said there were two fellas who looked like they were up to duggery....don't know why,just a feeling...and he was one.
Come on later,and had missed the entire episode...
Oh well,move along...nothing to see here...:conehead:
P
Patto
for the last 14years i have worked for a company who own 5 big fuel stations, i started doing maintenance for them and really enjoyed the variety of the job, i eventually got given a van to be able to cover the full 5 sites and loved it, i did basic building plumbing and electrics, working with contractors was pretty good as i was able to gather a bit of info and skills along the way, i took a real interest in the electrical side though and decided to put myself through college on a night so over the last 3 years i completed the 2330 lv2-3 and also did the 2382 recently, its been hard though as ive tried to pursue a career in the electrical industry but at 34 its hard to get a start with very little practical experience..
on monday i was due to go for an interview with a newly started company mainly domestic work but i got a call from a company we used to use in my current job so i went for a chat, they want me to go work for them working with plc, motors and other areas, i have no experience in this and told them the same but there keen as they no me and my attitude to work there going to pair me up and train me so have taken me on as an electrical improver, im crapping myself moving away from my secure job but feel like this is something i cant pass up on.........
so hopefully if i ever need help you guys can be there as i feel this is were i fit not in the domestic business..
Craig
on monday i was due to go for an interview with a newly started company mainly domestic work but i got a call from a company we used to use in my current job so i went for a chat, they want me to go work for them working with plc, motors and other areas, i have no experience in this and told them the same but there keen as they no me and my attitude to work there going to pair me up and train me so have taken me on as an electrical improver, im crapping myself moving away from my secure job but feel like this is something i cant pass up on.........
so hopefully if i ever need help you guys can be there as i feel this is were i fit not in the domestic business..
Craig
D
Darkwood
Several years of doing this with the correct training and your set for life as there's is a massive black hole of skilled industrial sparks with old retiring and no knew to fill in... crap yourself but it will reward you and not an opportunity to be passed... if it gets too hard then at least you had a go... house bashing is not really a money making market anymore and is very prone to the fluctuations of the housing market and economy..
P
Patto
my thoughts exactly, if it gets to hard ive tried and probably picked up a lot more information and skills along the way..
P
Patto
the guys i met with said the same, have people coming to the end of there working life so need to start new lads...
After spending 12 years as an installation electrician mainly commercial/ industrial with a bit of housebashing thrown in I had a rethink about where I was going and looked at the electricians I'd met out of several hundred only about 6 could do even half of the things listed , this prompted me to head in the general direction Hv/ Controls/Maintenance as there will definitely be a huge gap in the market, mainly due to the courses and quality of teaching available and the fact that a lot of young lads leave college and think the learning is over!
I'm currently 41 can now wire control panels the practical side ie motors, inverters etc I have no problems with , and have basic understanding of control circuits , starting to learn a plc although its an inhouse system not used by anyone else, design basics........
Still a long way to go!!
I'm currently 41 can now wire control panels the practical side ie motors, inverters etc I have no problems with , and have basic understanding of control circuits , starting to learn a plc although its an inhouse system not used by anyone else, design basics........
Still a long way to go!!
Long time lurker but saw this and signed up.
I'm 24 and started my apprenticeship straight from school, I work for a company where our prime area of work is the industrial sector.
I design control panels and their associated safety systems, program PLC's from the basic EASY relays, to the high end AB/ Schneider modular gear. I or one of our lads build the panels and then we install them.
But we have struggled to find anyone that we deem competent enough to supplement our team and feel that unless we train from apprentices (There have been 2 since me) we just cannot find anyone with the required skills.
Speaking from experience of the Apprenticeship scheme which taught me very well in cable calcs the regs ect which was more than enough to take in but we only did one half day on any sort of industrial/ motor control systems. we wired a brook DOL starter, theres no wonder nobody else knows what's going on apart from the well trained/ grandfather rights of the elder generation.
I'm 24 and started my apprenticeship straight from school, I work for a company where our prime area of work is the industrial sector.
I design control panels and their associated safety systems, program PLC's from the basic EASY relays, to the high end AB/ Schneider modular gear. I or one of our lads build the panels and then we install them.
But we have struggled to find anyone that we deem competent enough to supplement our team and feel that unless we train from apprentices (There have been 2 since me) we just cannot find anyone with the required skills.
Speaking from experience of the Apprenticeship scheme which taught me very well in cable calcs the regs ect which was more than enough to take in but we only did one half day on any sort of industrial/ motor control systems. we wired a brook DOL starter, theres no wonder nobody else knows what's going on apart from the well trained/ grandfather rights of the elder generation.
i have never wired a DOL starter only inverter driven, the minimum requirements are so low now
I did a night course for 3 years and the instructors were always flummoxed when I said ok we've done motor theory, when do we learn to control one and even see one, they fished out a DOL for me to wire, saying "its not on the curriculum but here you go"
Just to shut me up,
This was the only course available locally , even further afield the industrial biased courses were day study only which pretty much rules out older trainees who are working.
Interestingly I've just come back from a job in Germany and employers there have to allow a worker time off with pay (subsidised by the government) if they want to retrain in engineering,medicine or other areas identified as having a skills deficit.
I can't help but think if we stopped messing around with all the stupid legislation which is supposed to bring us in line with the euro states that bogs this country down, we could be doing something practical like this!
Also had contact with an electrician (he ran the submain into our main db) who told me they pretty much all train to be Industrial sparks and domestic is a supplementary "add on" mainly regs etc as its not considered to be the main route for training unlike here!
Just to shut me up,
This was the only course available locally , even further afield the industrial biased courses were day study only which pretty much rules out older trainees who are working.
Interestingly I've just come back from a job in Germany and employers there have to allow a worker time off with pay (subsidised by the government) if they want to retrain in engineering,medicine or other areas identified as having a skills deficit.
I can't help but think if we stopped messing around with all the stupid legislation which is supposed to bring us in line with the euro states that bogs this country down, we could be doing something practical like this!
Also had contact with an electrician (he ran the submain into our main db) who told me they pretty much all train to be Industrial sparks and domestic is a supplementary "add on" mainly regs etc as its not considered to be the main route for training unlike here!
D
Darkwood
welcome to the forum .... dumbed down education is the reason there is a massive black hole in the industrial sector .... and its the fallout of political point scoring to show high pass rates regardless of actual intellect.
The first time we were introduced to DOLs in college I was curious as to what all the wires did. Straight away I was asking how it actually worked but was told something along the lines of "don't worry about it, you'll never need to know" lol
So what level of control systems is the 'average' trainee exposed to in the UK? In five weeks, my entire class has an assessment and will have to wire up at the very least a latching contactor circuit. Anyone who can't do it perfectly is at great risk of having to repeat the subject at their own expense.
K
Knobhead
I’m just glad I didn’t need to worry about how the 1000’s of motors we had on plant worked. Such a weight off my mind.
The average house bashing apprentice learns next to nothing about control in their years at college..it's left to the employer to teach, but many of those don't know it either...
i did the 2330 and didnt cover any controls, covered dol starters etc.
did a lot on different types of motors in the last year
I was very lucky to have a real genius of a tutor in my third year. He used to help me and another with extra curricular studies; motors, controls, protective measures, gennys, plcs, safety circuits, deeper science and principles. He didn't have to, but he gave up his own time just to give people a better understanding of things than was required by the course. I have a lot to thank him for!
You won't get that with electricskills4u or any other similarly named short course training provider!
You won't get that with electricskills4u or any other similarly named short course training provider!
K
Knobhead
I suppose I was lucky in that my brother became an apprentice industrial electrician when I was 8. By the time I was 10 he’d built me a board in the garage similar to the boards modern apprentices use. He’d stripped an old control panel out at work and they let him have the gear. This board had contactors, timers and so on.
H&S, what’s that? All of it was 240V control 13A plug and no RCD. If I got a belt it was my bloody fault! Yes, I was working on it live.
Both of us are retired, if we were still talking to each other we could set up a training centre.
H&S, what’s that? All of it was 240V control 13A plug and no RCD. If I got a belt it was my bloody fault! Yes, I was working on it live.
Both of us are retired, if we were still talking to each other we could set up a training centre.
E
Engineer54
That's because the whole curriculum now seems to be based almost wholly on domestic and small commercial installations, which was definitely not the case when i was doing C&G courses, the installation 236 C&G being just one of them. Controls were part and parcel of the job so were covered in depth...
But then the company i did my training with had it's own in house trade training school so we got an across the board training both at the school and on the shop floor. A few of the tutors being ex electrical/mechanical foreman (or similar) that ended their working days before retiring, (some were actually retired too) teaching at the company school. ....Happy days!!
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