NAPIT Certification Scheme An interesting exchange today with Contactum, IET & NAPIT
- Thread starter D Skelton
- Start date
S
Slowhand
It might be a good idea to involve Bomb Disposal in this because it looks very much like we're all stood at the edge of a great big minefield.
D
Darkwood
There is still great confusion all around here and IET has yet 'to my knowledge' to give a definitive response to the questions posed to them about the confusion of this regulation 421.1.201
Here lies the problem - The consumer unit or similar switchgear has to comply to BS EN 61439-3 with basically is a set of test like an hot touch, self extinguishing etc...
As worded by the regs - 421.1.201
Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 AND SHALL;
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non combustible material, OR
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with reg 132.12.
NOTE 1: Ferrous metal , e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-conbustible material
NOTE 2: (Just mentions implementation date jan 2016)
Now the problem here is the regulations states it has to comply to both the BS61439-3 and be non combustible if you do not house it as to point (ii) but there's no documented definitive definition of a non-combustaible material but they do give an example so this is not saying it has to be steel.
My next point is everything is combustible given high enough temperatures and the conditions to burn so we need to know the exact requirements to be given a non combustible rating are.... all the manfacturers have to comply to is the BS 61439-3 and that allows them to meet the first part if the regulation but who is going to define the parameters of the word non combustible, yes steel is an example but as this is the only example they give we are stuck with the example as we have no other information to go on.
Here lies the problem - The consumer unit or similar switchgear has to comply to BS EN 61439-3 with basically is a set of test like an hot touch, self extinguishing etc...
As worded by the regs - 421.1.201
Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 AND SHALL;
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non combustible material, OR
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with reg 132.12.
NOTE 1: Ferrous metal , e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-conbustible material
NOTE 2: (Just mentions implementation date jan 2016)
Now the problem here is the regulations states it has to comply to both the BS61439-3 and be non combustible if you do not house it as to point (ii) but there's no documented definitive definition of a non-combustaible material but they do give an example so this is not saying it has to be steel.
My next point is everything is combustible given high enough temperatures and the conditions to burn so we need to know the exact requirements to be given a non combustible rating are.... all the manfacturers have to comply to is the BS 61439-3 and that allows them to meet the first part if the regulation but who is going to define the parameters of the word non combustible, yes steel is an example but as this is the only example they give we are stuck with the example as we have no other information to go on.
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my thoughts exactly. a titanium enclosure would be non-combustible, and so would a ceramic one. it's time the IET pulled their collective fingers out of their ears and came up with suitable materials, instead of just saying that steel is an example.
D
Darkwood
Try BS EN 60695-2-10,11&12 and BS EN 13943 for that definition DW.
It's quite clear I think
I myself and the majority of the normal average sparky do not have access to all these regulations to cross reference the clarity of said regulation, my point is the regulation is at best ambigious and confusing and as this applies to domestic only it should be really made clearer within the BS 7671 and in its present format you are left with anything steel or similar to be sure you have met the regulation.
If the IET deem anything complying to BS61439-3 is what part of the requirement is, then why add that its needs also to be non-combustible surely meeting these requirements minimises the dangers of a fire using the enclosure to get a hold and spread .... if the BS61439-3 isn't good enough on its own then why not raise the bar as to the requirements at manufacturing level and leave the BS7671 with a simple regulation that is easy to follow..... I just think this whole situation has been poorly introduced leaving many questions that just are not been answered.
What is the point if you can have a plastic board that complies to BS61439-3 then saying oh yeah and its to be non-combustible.. who says when a plastic board is or isn't non combustible --- I thought that was the whole point of the BS61439-3 standard hence this regulation is just a ball of confusion.
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you should be able to handle it. after all, you had the italians in north africa and they were a joke. lol.
O
Octopus
I think a farce is more accurate.
Its about time the IET got its act together and placed "proof reading" of their regs in the hands of the "plain english society" before the next versions go to print.
We are not all in agreement, the wholesalers don't know either, so god help Joe Public
just about to start up in production of CUs made entirely from glass.
1. glass is non-combustible.
2. end user will be able to see the poor terminations made by the Electrical Trainee's and avert a fire by calling in a competent electrician to fix it before a fire breaks out.
SORTED.
1. glass is non-combustible.
2. end user will be able to see the poor terminations made by the Electrical Trainee's and avert a fire by calling in a competent electrician to fix it before a fire breaks out.
SORTED.
D
Darkwood
Until you drop it!
Can't read that D!
Too small even on the laptop screen, don't have a desktop machine to make it bigger on at the moment!
open the pic, then click on it and zoom in.
It won't work for me, I'll try to re-start the browser in a bit, doing something in another tab @ the moment so can't close it.
Had a conversation at wholesalers today. They are stopping providing the old CU's. New wylex m/clad 10w HI £80 without breakers.
Wylex 40mm gland for tails £10, others available for £5. Some sort of sealed unit for rear incorporating glands £30....so we're talking something like £160 for a complete unit. Double the cost.
Looks like there's not going to be much choice. Short and curlies, eh? Ridiculous!!
Wylex 40mm gland for tails £10, others available for £5. Some sort of sealed unit for rear incorporating glands £30....so we're talking something like £160 for a complete unit. Double the cost.
Looks like there's not going to be much choice. Short and curlies, eh? Ridiculous!!
D
Darkwood
Why are the wholesalers stopping supplying the plastic CU's when they are OK anywhere except domestic?
Oh and re-starting the browser sorted the pic issue!
Oh and re-starting the browser sorted the pic issue!
are you sure www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OSBJwogFc
D
Darkwood
The issue with glass of most kinds is it stresses easily with heat so focus the heat in one spot it usually shatters .... not enough info in the link but totally respect your response lol
Not even thinking about installing yet....just a passing chat...so not getting ripped off. Yet, anyway.:wink_smile:
So basically Contactum dont know what materials can be used!
But how could they when the new regulation is ambiguous?
I shall be adhering to the second clause of enclosing my plastic CU in a suitable enclosure. I shall basically wrap the CU in Ceramic Fibre Wool High-temperature insulation wool - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It could be classed as an enclosure and it can take temperatures over 1000degrees and complies with reg 132.12, just another example of this regulation needing to be tidied up a bit!
But how could they when the new regulation is ambiguous?
I shall be adhering to the second clause of enclosing my plastic CU in a suitable enclosure. I shall basically wrap the CU in Ceramic Fibre Wool High-temperature insulation wool - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It could be classed as an enclosure and it can take temperatures over 1000degrees and complies with reg 132.12, just another example of this regulation needing to be tidied up a bit!
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Borosilicate could be the answer!
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S
SPARTYKUS
Had to look that up. Interesting. Pyrex is made from it. 1648 degrees Celsius. Should do
D
Darkwood
Yes we have oven ready Pyrex glass ... but you missed my key point, if you heat up only one spot of glass the stresses between the hot and cold areas can cause it to shatter, fracture, crack etc ... oven glassware is heated up more or less evenly so little issue but car windscreen are a good example for shattering or cracking when you poor boiling water on it to melt the ice. The link gave limited info on properties of the glass so may not be suitable or even cost effective.
Just look up exploding pyrex dishes etc ..consumers ignoring usage warning and putting a hot dish under a cold running tap is one way to achieve this.
Glass is an insulator so is prone to temp' differential stress where as metal is a good heat conductor and doesn't shatter with high temperature gradiants across its surface.
Just look up exploding pyrex dishes etc ..consumers ignoring usage warning and putting a hot dish under a cold running tap is one way to achieve this.
Glass is an insulator so is prone to temp' differential stress where as metal is a good heat conductor and doesn't shatter with high temperature gradiants across its surface.
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I believe the issues with 'exploding' pyrex were down to using inferior tempered soda-lime glass instead of borosilicate which incidentally most laboratory glassware is made from.
I wasn't being serious as I'm sure Tel wasn't when he suggested glass being used for cu's but the more I think about it the more I'm 'warming' to the idea.
D
Darkwood
Having said that we do have lab gear as you say where you have a burner under the glass although at what sacrifice to other properties ? ... maybe you could get a patent going for see-through switch gear ..however ugly seeing the mess of wires inside might be
true, did you look at part2 its very interesting
S
SPARTYKUS
hilarious. Doggedly sticking to their lines.... "No, no, not listening, no, no, i hear the voices but Im not listening"
... depends how cold you make it and how hard you hit it ... though I have seen an experiment where a brass tube was put in liquid at room temperature and within a minute or so it was in 'shard' like pieces, looking like it had shattered. A combination of unrelieved stresses from manufacture and corrosive environment causing failure by stress corrosion.
C
chloebear
surely the root of the problem is not that the consumer units are combustible or not, but why they catch fire!!!!! instead of making all domestic consumer units non-combustible so that they just contain any fire that may/may not be occurring they seem not to have addressed the cause of the problem which is likely to be poor terminations or overload situations - these are still going to be there, just hidden away.
would it not be better to try and sort out the cause through teaching people how to terminate cables and not overload circuits, more inspections on domestic properties etc etc. But no lets just ignore the causes and opt for an easy way out.
cant see that this new regulation will solve anything.
would it not be better to try and sort out the cause through teaching people how to terminate cables and not overload circuits, more inspections on domestic properties etc etc. But no lets just ignore the causes and opt for an easy way out.
cant see that this new regulation will solve anything.
D
Darkwood
You make valid points but the case is that the fires still happen .. if a simple change in regulation can limit the possiblity of fire spreading and save property and lives than even one live saved can justify the regulation and as steel enclosures cost little difference to make compared to their plastic counterparts then the prices will drop and we have more time to find who's to blame in the long run.
I tend to agree, but only time will tell. This argument keeps coming and going, but for now we have to work with what is given us. As I have said before, I can't see any manufacturer producing any thing else, other than a metal CU. For them it's simple, the reg suggests non ferrous metal, so why would they bother to research (spend profits) anything else and then prove (to whoever they have to) that it's non combustible. Clearly plastic CU's were cheaper to make than metal, bigger profit margins, but for now (or next Jan) it's metal, cos that's cheaper to make than glass, ceramic or kryptonite!
L
lister101
Makes you wonder what was wrong with Bakelite!!
Main thing that bothers me about all this, is the fact that a bad installer will still do a bad job,
There'll still be CU fires and possibly electrocutions will rise, something which was not really a problem before with insulated Cu's so by trying to solve one issue another has arisen.
The only good thing that may come from the above scenario happening is that a proper licensing scheme may be eventually introduced for electricians, with stringent criteria !
Sadly a few lives need to be lost before common sense comes into play!
There'll still be CU fires and possibly electrocutions will rise, something which was not really a problem before with insulated Cu's so by trying to solve one issue another has arisen.
The only good thing that may come from the above scenario happening is that a proper licensing scheme may be eventually introduced for electricians, with stringent criteria !
Sadly a few lives need to be lost before common sense comes into play!
Not sure about this...not heard of that many electrocutions from metal switchgear anywhere else. Though I may be wrong!
D
davesparks
How will electrocution a rise?
Just from my own experience I've seen exposed live conductors touching the sides of insulated Cu's on quite a few occasions ie tails/singles in domestic boards that have been pinched or ripped by the cover etc and just left by the installer, several of these jobs had either no earthing/ bonding connected to the board or the ZE was ridiculously high due to poor termination
So I think it's fair to comment that as MC Cu's may/will start being installed it's only a matter of time before some idiot leaves a job with the enclosure live!
Also seen a few 3 phase boards so badly done with damaged conductors almost touching the sides again with virtually nonexistent earth's and I seriously doubt I'm the only person to see such badly done installs!
So I think it's fair to comment that as MC Cu's may/will start being installed it's only a matter of time before some idiot leaves a job with the enclosure live!
Also seen a few 3 phase boards so badly done with damaged conductors almost touching the sides again with virtually nonexistent earth's and I seriously doubt I'm the only person to see such badly done installs!
D
Darkwood
So as the majority of boards in industrial and part commercial are all metal - I assume we must all be playing on borrowed time... there is little or any higher risk between metal and plastic and deffo not enough to warrant the lives saved in house fires.... I'm sure if the industrial death rate due to the boards been metal was an issue then they would have thought about the regulations in the first place as the BS7671 covers industrial too and I see no extra measures needed for metal boards except the obvious.
If you get such a suggested poor install then they are clearly not competent or to the regs ... we cannot do anything about those that do this poor work except warn people but they will always exist...
If you get such a suggested poor install then they are clearly not competent or to the regs ... we cannot do anything about those that do this poor work except warn people but they will always exist...
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