Consumer Unused Spare ways

[seftonbarn]

I am fitting a new dual CU that comes with 10MCBs. For those that are unused is it acceptable to just leave them installed but switched off and identified as unused. Or should they be removed and replaced with blanks?

 

[Guest111]

I'm so glad you pointed that out to me after all these years .......................

Yeah Malc I used to assume they were all thick,made a nice surprise when occasionally one proved you wrong.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I ALWAYS remove and only for one reason... To stop silly DIYers taking a new circuit into a spare breaker.

Here's an example.

My consumer unit cupboard is rather dark... I know, I'll wire a light in there. That working on a fuseboard looks really easy after watching that spark. It's only a few wires it'll be fine.

Yep, until those few pieces of a 1.5mm scrap cable, ancient light and switch found in the garage end up in a 32A breaker.... One day... BOOM!!!!, neee naaaaa neeeee naaaaaa. Oh hello fireman Sam, not sure what that electrician did when he was here but my fuse board is on fire now, Plleeeeeeeeaaaaase Help????

Not sure about that one....if there's no spare breaker they'll just dob it in with the cooker circuit!

 

[sparky-s-w]

Because It's lazy, maybe rough wasn't the right word but I would say it is very poor practice. The breaker is serving no purpose and the average homeowner is an idiot. It may not be labelled but Joe average probably think's it is doing something

sorry but i disagree, lazy? which is easyer/quicker connecting a breaker or slaping in a blank, "Very bad practice"? why?

 

[Jimmy Boy]

sorry but i disagree, lazy? which is easyer/quicker connecting a breaker or slaping in a blank, "Very bad practice"? why?

IMHO it would only amount to 'Bad practice' if a copy of circuit details were not left adjacent to board highlighting the fact that (X) breaker was a unused way, this was my whole point of my post regarding regs for circuit identification ( Which someone got arsy with me for ), it's important that an unskilled person knows what to switch of or reset
J

 

[Tonkatoy27]

On Hagar boards the edges of the cover surrounding the MCB's is shaped so it does not accept clip in blanks. I'd like to think they've designed it this way because they too fear the dangers of a clips in 'falling out'. Personally, I think it's so you are forced into buying Hagar parts. Although I agree in using din rail/bus bar mounted blanks where possible I don't like the Hagar design as when you come across a board with a bloody great hole in the front of it you can't fill it unless you've got Hagar blanks on board, unlikley if you don't fit them yourself.
I personally use Starbreaker boards with insulated bus bars which negates the needs for a return to 'having to nip the plasitc off' or 'a blue clip'

 

[oldtimer]

Guys I think you have to look at the history of this go back 25 years and a wylex push button MCB was £6 thats £20 in todays prices so a 8 way consumer unit was about £90 then hence when you go to an old job there is either a blank or the old 3036 fuse fitted as the spare way or on a site to keep costs down they fitted blanks now fast forward today and you get a fully fitted board for £70 and as you can see in a previous post in a rental property I fit the din rail "dummy" MCB which looks the part plus does not confuse anybody if I am fitting one in a private property I do the same but I leave the spare breakers as I see this as good customer service and they are happy that you leave them. Also when I upgrade an intruder alarm I always leave the engineers code( and manual) at factory setting and inform the customer that i do this because a lot of alarm companies put their code in so when there is a problem they want £130 callout to come and reset the low battery fault plus they charge £90 plus vat of course for a new battery in this case the customer appreciates this and I get return work so as the Merkat would say Simple

 

[Tonkatoy27]

IMHO it would only amount to 'Bad practice' if a copy of circuit details were not left adjacent to board highlighting the fact that (X) breaker was a unused way, this was my whole point of my post regarding regs for circuit identification ( Which someone got arsy with me for ), it's important that an unskilled person knows what to switch of or reset
J

At the risk of being contriversial, I think this reg is a big waste of the customers money. To be proffesional it means that after the job, printing out the test result sheet, putting in a plastic envelope or laminating it and then returning to the property to fix it next to the CU. This extra labour has to be allowed for in the customers invoice unless you work for free and the customer couldn't reall care less. It's only usefull if it's commercial where other sparkies are likely to work on the installation.
I did it on my first ELECSA assessment but none since, no-ones mentioned it.
The customer knows whats what from the clear labelling on the CU
All my own opinion of course.

 

[sparky-s-w]

IMHO it would only amount to 'Bad practice' if a copy of circuit details were not left adjacent to board highlighting the fact that (X) breaker was a unused way, this was my whole point of my post regarding regs for circuit identification ( Which someone got arsy with me for ), it's important that an unskilled person knows what to switch of or reset
J

ok i understand the regs, but even without the all important chart, the customer will re-set the breaker that had tripped(would be identified anyway), and if anyone working on the board in the future couldnt identify a spare circuit then, well they souldnt even be there.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

It only takes 5 mins to copy across your data from the EIC to another chart, or you could just copy the cert test pages and leave them there,is anyone gonna die if you don't ? no of course not, the customer couldn't care less ? well perhaps they don't but thats no excuse for that little bit of extra effort is it ?
J

 

[Guest55]

I take them out and put decent blanks in, i only fit Hager boards so I can always get hold of good blanks. Personally I think It's rough to leave unused MCB's in. If your concerned about the customer having paid for them then give them to the customer instead of leaving them in the board.

So the customer can try and fit them himself at a later date , which is much much safer ???

 

[Octopus]

The customer knows whats what from the clear labelling on the CU

And clear labelling is what is sadly missing from most new CU installs I come across.

 

[Guest55]

I think the discussion around this trivial subject is getting a bit silly now.
Leave them in , dont leave them in , its not bad practice either way , BS7671 doesnt care either way.
A bit of perspective and common sense serves better than some of the daft claims being made.

 

[somersetsparks]

It is essemtial in commercial/industrial etc. and most jobs won't get signed of till the clip frames are on the wall, always a last minute apprentice job!
Don't really seee the need on domestic though, I have never seen a house with one and I have tested a lot! However with a lot of sparks doing paperwork on the PC now, would it really take more then 5 mins to make one up and at least give it to the customer with their invoice? (p.s. I dont work for myself, so tell me to jog on if you want!)

If the fuseboard labelling isn't clear, I can't help myself but to correct it after finishing testing!, even if that means tippex out!

Forgot to mention though, although I don't leave MCB's in, I don't really care or think its a regulation or even a 'best practise issue' Just a minor point!

 

[oldtimer]

So the customer can try and fit them himself at a later date , which is much much safer ???

I look at it this way way if a customer gets you in to fit a CU they aint going to start running new circuits and fitting a MCB I had a customer tell me he got a shower fitted a year after I fitted the CU the company made a big deal about electrical safety so when they sent their "spark" in he was chuffed that there was RCD protection plus spare MCBs for the shower and electric towel rail

 

[sparky-s-w]

I think the discussion around this trivial subject is getting a bit silly now.
Leave them in , dont leave them in , its not bad practice either way , BS7671 doesnt care either way.
A bit of perspective and common sense serves better than some of the daft claims being made.

well said biff, its easy to get cought up in these discussions, sorry for my part, ill keep leaving them in, and if people wana leave em out good on ya,

 

[Tonkatoy27]

It only takes 5 mins to copy across your data from the EIC to another chart, or you could just copy the cert test pages and leave them there,is anyone gonna die if you don't ? no of course not, the customer couldn't care less ? well perhaps they don't but thats no excuse for that little bit of extra effort is it ?
J

Not if they are hand written no, unless you have a laminator on the van though it would be a bit hard to provide a 'durable' copy' My certs are filled out on a laptop which would require a return visit to the property which would take considerably more than 5 mins. How many sparks on here can honestly say that they fix up a durable copy of their test sheet at every CU change they do, not many I think...

 

[sparky-s-w]

It is essemtial in commercial/industrial etc. and most jobs won't get signed of till the clip frames are on the wall, always a last minute apprentice job!
Don't really seee the need on domestic though, I have never seen a house with one and I have tested a lot! However with a lot of sparks doing paperwork on the PC now, would it really take more then 5 mins to make one up and at least give it to the customer with their invoice? (p.s. I dont work for myself, so tell me to jog on if you want!)

If the fuseboard labelling isn't clear, I can't help myself but to correct it after finishing testing!, even if that means tippex out!

Forgot to mention though, although I don't leave MCB's in, I don't really care or think its a regulation or even a 'best practise issue' Just a minor point!

jog on
just kiddin:cheesy:

 

[Guest55]

well said biff, its easy to get cought up in these discussions, sorry for my part, ill keep leaving them in, and if people wana leave em out good on ya,

Nothing wrong with a good discussion on even dull topics , but everyone has the " well i had a customer who did this , that and the other" type stories - it doesnt prove anything either way to be honest.

 

[Groucho Mace]

I always fit blanks ,never leave spare mcb's in a board - many years ago i got called out to a lady who had lost her Lounge light, and she pointed to me that a mcb was off and underneath it was marked lights, strange i thought for 1 light to be on its own, well I reset the mcb and went back to the light, itturned out it was just a dodgy lampholder - pins not making, upon removing the consumer unit cover I could see the mcb had no out going circuit!, this I feel is why I was taught to always remove them and I still do.;-)

 

[Guest55]

........ everyone has the " well i had a customer who did this , that and the other" type stories - it doesnt prove anything either way to be honest.

Then right on cue..............

many years ago i got called out to a lady......... etc , etc , etc

:-D

 

[Swicade]

We all have our different way of doing things,aslong as we do them within the regs and a safe manner alls good at the end of the day.

Regarding any consumer unit, aslong as there's no gaps (filled in with MCB or Blanks (preferably modular blanks IMO)) and labelled correctly and clearly then everything should be fine and dandy.

 

[oldtimer]

Could be worse I have either sen the blanks missing or a bit O phase tape across the space

 

[StuSpiers]

Horses for courses.

 

[sparky-s-w]

Could be worse I have either sen the blanks missing or a bit O phase tape across the space

yea sorry bout that didnt have black tape :cheesy:

 

[Lucas]

Didn't say I do that, I just put blank's in, I don't but consumer units that come with X amount of breakers, I buy them as I need. By some of the peoples here's logic Blank plates are pretty much pointless because you can just put a socket on and because its not doing any harm its ok, just pointless and makes no sense

 

[bradder]

Some years ago I fitted a 40amp mcb as a blank,returned to the job some time later to find the stairlift installer had moved the immersion heater circuit to the 40amp and used the 16amp for his lift! Since then I never fit mcb's as blanks.

 

[sparky-s-w]

some years ago, i knew a guy who fitted spares then the house blew up, i also knew a guy, who fitted blanks and guess what, the house blew up. i also knew a guy who fitted laminated wall charts and guess what, no the house was fine & scam assor was happy.

my point is each to their own

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Some years ago I fitted a 40amp mcb as a blank,returned to the job some time later to find the stairlift installer had moved the immersion heater circuit to the 40amp and used the 16amp for his lift! Since then I never fit mcb's as blanks.

Now that is a really good point actually !
J

 

[1shortcircuit]

I ALWAYS remove and only for one reason... To stop silly DIYers taking a new circuit into a spare breaker.

Here's an example.

My consumer unit cupboard is rather dark... I know, I'll wire a light in there. That working on a fuseboard looks really easy after watching that spark. It's only a few wires it'll be fine.

Yep, until those few pieces of a 1.5mm scrap cable, ancient light and switch found in the garage end up in a 32A breaker.... One day... BOOM!!!!, neee naaaaa neeeee naaaaaa. Oh hello fireman Sam, not sure what that electrician did when he was here but my fuse board is on fire now, Plleeeeeeeeaaaaase Help????

As I have mentioned here, I don't fit the spare MCB's. Just because "I" don't doesn't mean that I am right and others who do are wrong. It's just the way I work. Also, I do not leave the spare breakers. I keep them on the van for when customers require additional circuits to which I will supply them FOC if I have fitted the board.

I price my Consumer Unit replacements at a standard rate. The price does not alter whether I use 3 breakers or 10 breakers in the CU I provide.

It's nice to see members reasons as to why they do and why they don't but I will still continue as I do... Because "I" am my own boss, and "I" am the one signing my name on the certificate :thumbsup



Someone could well throw a 1.5mm t&e cable in with my 50A breaker for the cooker at the CU but then again the same could be done for an extractor hood from the cooker Isolator lol Far less cable required from this point lol

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

[Knobhead]

Taking things to the extreme.
A contractor installed a new board for us at work. Knowing what this guy was like I went and had a nose around what he’d done. To my surprise there was nothing wrong with the new board or the 25mm 4C SWA feeding it.
The switch room was a different matter, I hunted high and low on the auxiliary switchboard for the feed. First thoughts he’s not labelled it, then I noticed a new label on another board. He’d only fed a 25mm off an 800A fuse switch!
He got a very cordial invitation to an arse kicking party.

 

[johnboy6083]

Taking things to the extreme.
A contractor installed a new board for us at work. Knowing what this guy was like I went and had a nose around what he’d done. To my surprise there was nothing wrong with the new board or the 25mm 4C SWA feeding it.
The switch room was a different matter, I hunted high and low on the auxiliary switchboard for the feed. First thoughts he’s not labelled it, then I noticed a new label on another board. He’d only fed a 25mm off an 800A fuse switch!

He got a very cordial invitation to an arse kicking party.

maybe he was feeding heaters, and didnt require overload protection, only short circuit! lol

( for the even more pedantic than me, i have not carried out an adiabatic check, to see if the 25mm could handle the fault current that would occur before the 800A fuses operated)

 

[jonnyboy1]

I know a couple of very experienced sparks that have had a warning from the scam assessors about this it's a minor they still got their ticket but hey ho
J

beat this 1

no calibration certs for testers
wrong readings on sheet to what was on meter 0.22ohms on sheet 13.2 on meter!!!!! communal close supply (scam provider guy standing with meter in hand)
but still got approved for this provider (the big 1)
so yes they are a scam and only after your cash

 

[oldtimer]

beat this 1

no calibration certs for testers
wrong readings on sheet to what was on meter 0.22ohms on sheet 13.2 on meter!!!!! communal close supply (scam provider guy standing with meter in hand)
but still got approved for this provider (the big 1)
so yes they are a scam and only after your cash

So when did you realise that the scams are not here to raise standards but subscription you should look at them the same way as the big PAT testing companies just put stickers on anything that moves where they badge anything that pays. I have said it before it will take a death for these clowns to start doing their job

 

[Octopus]

beat this 1

no calibration certs for testers
wrong readings on sheet to what was on meter 0.22ohms on sheet 13.2 on meter!!!!! communal close supply (scam provider guy standing with meter in hand)
but still got approved for this provider (the big 1)
so yes they are a scam and only after your cash

My Elecsa assessor wouldn't let this past him.

 

[Silly Sausage]

no calibration certs for testers

The first :-------: I worked for used to 'calibrate' (word used in its loosest sense) our DMMs in his garage, F knows what on. Come back with a crappy little hand written label on. This is on a major NW chemical site.