Danfoss 3ph motor inverter causing hot cables.

[Crustycracker]

At my site I have 3 x Danfoss VLT6000 motor inverters for our pumps. The MCB's have always been warm to touch and as they were put in by a contractor before I came to site I assumed it must be correct.
As late the 25A rated 3 pole MCB's were detected by a thermal image survey as being too hot. I investigated this further. I found each MCB casing had become slightly brittle and brown at the sides and also the 6mm singles at the terminal ends and up to 3" out had brittle insulation. I did a clamp test and each circuit was carrying around 23A on full load. Although the inverter display told me 27A. I had the singles replaced, max. 8mt run in steel 3" trunking. I replaced the first two MCB's with 32A MCB's thinking that the old 25A's where probably a bit close to the mark. During the replacement of the second set of pump cables I noticed that the new 32A MCB was running just as hot. I rechecked the current in the singles cables which was still about 23A. Absolutely puzzled I contacted Danfoss on this problem. I was pointed to a page on their web site about installation of the inverters. The installation at my site was miles away from what Danfoss installation instructions required. Danfoss siad use screened cable and also use cartridge fuses. I had singles in trunking, although no overcrowding whatsoever, and MCB's. The guy at Danfoss did his utmost to explain to me what he believed to be the problem mentioning harmonics, cable resistance even low currents, etc. etc. It was over my head I'm afraid. Shortly after I contacted Merlin Gerin (what a nightmare that was, I hate Schneider, they are like Tesco's...too big and fat). A helpful chap said that in his experience MCB's can run warm without a problem but I couldn't specify the temperature of mine at that point. But I have since checked....MCB's old and new ones are running at 51 degrees and cable temp along entire length is about 35 degrees. I am certainly unhappy with this. I have left the trunking lid off for now and the MCB's have plenty of space around them in the D/B.
I am at a loss at how to tackle this so am looking for another bright spark who may have installed the same or similar in the past and has had the same issues. I have never installed inverters myself in my years but have maintained sites with them in use. Even now I am not that familiar with them apart from knowing that they can save energy.
Any thoughts anybody???

 

[benji]

the 6mm singles in trunking are they the supply to the inverter or inverter to motor

 

[Crustycracker]

Benji, the 6mm singles are used to supply from the MCB to the inverter and they are also used from the inverter to the pump isolator and then the motor.

 

[silva.foxx]

Hey up Crustycracker

A decent description of problem... good detail.

Am I correct in saying you have three units of 3ph 415vac input?

What exact model of the 6000 series is it and what size motor are you feeding?

Is each inverter feeding one motor only, no multi motor situation?



Steve... great minds I'd say... I'm happy to call it a draw.

 

[Steve1412]

What is the current rating of the motor its controlling? and the controller itself?


Beat me to it Bud

 

[Crustycracker]

Guys, thanks for the quick replies. Especially on a Friday afternoon when most of us are glazed over after a long week.

The model details; VLT 6022HT 4C545TR 3DLT 00A00C0

The writing is rather small on the plate so where I have written 0 it could be an O (oh).

silva.fox maybe your ears were burning, I was on one of your threads about 20 mins ago wondering if the answer was in there.

I have to shoot off now got to check and feed my livestock. I'm back in work tomorrow so I'll pick up and replies then.

Thankyou all again.

 

[silva.foxx]

That's quite a biggy!

A max output current of 32A therefore the input needs to be capable of supplying this. The input requirement is typically greater than the output.

There is usually a sticker on the top or side of the VLT stating the desired input current. Have you seen it?

What size cables feed the MCBs?

Quick...before you go...

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I worked for a very large soft drinks company once, i can't name names, but it is the real thing alledgedly. When we had problems with overheating electricals like yours and in cabinets, their solution was to put cooling fans in the cabinets. This doesn't cure the disease, but it cures the symptom, and it was cheap. One day hopefully the place will burn down and than i can tell the clown of an Engineering manager, "I Told you so ar****le.

Cheers...........howard

 

[silva.foxx]

...."I Told you so ar****le.

That's not how you spell Arsenal!

 

[johnboy6083]

ive just finished a job where we installled 2x 15kw pumps, on VSD's.
We had to use armoured cable, and the SWA, had to be glanded as close as possible to the drive. We used the 4th core as earth, and ran a seperate CPC also. I think this was to do with trying to reduce harmonics.
If anybody can explain how to reduce harmonics, and the reasoning behind it, i would be grateful.

Thanks,

John

 

[silva.foxx]

I'm thinking along the lines of further uprating the feed, depending on the size of feed to the MCBs.
10 or 16mm2 on a C40A MCB with an increase of CPC too.

Are these motors greater than 15kw?

 

[Knobhead]

This smacks of a problem with harmonics. Drives of this size should have in line reactors to stop harmonics. Armoured / screened cables will also help.

 

[Crustycracker]

Pump details;

Armstrong Starline 80-200-15 (15kw). New replacement MCB's are 32A. But current, and I measured it Friday, is only about 23A.

Johnboy, sounds like you are using the same inverters as I have here. Your description also sounds like you have read the installation manual and the idiots that installed this kit back in 2007 didn't.
I'm afraid I don't understand harmonics, its a science, did it at college back in the early 80's and glazed over then. Like everything in our trade if you don't use it the knowledge evaporates away and the memory space is taken up by more interesting stuff like women, price of beer, etc. etc.

Out of interest, what breakers did you use?? Can you feel if they are warn/ hot if they are MCB's?? The instructions recommend cartridge type.A Bussman coded is KTS-R40 which are the 22mm x 58mm cylinder type. As I have an existing Merlin G dist. bd. I'm double stuffed because MG don't have a retro fit STI isilatable fuse carrier that will fit in the board.

Thankyou to all for your replies by the way.

 

[johnboy6083]

the vsd's we used were seimens. i didnt read the instructions, im working for a large contractor, with an engineer to ring regarding any problems. drives were incorporated into a motor control centre, i just did the field wiring, and connected to panel, and tested.
For a 15kw motor, we had 50A bs88-2, and the cables feeding the motor were 10mm2. pumps havent been fully commisioned yet, so havent been able to measure FLA.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Can't explain how to reduce harmonics, but apparently the solution on a job I worked on last year, was to change the feed cables from 6mm² to 16mm².

 

[Crustycracker]

SF - I have a phot of the spec. plate on the side of the inverter unit. I am trying to get it attached but not sure if it will work. Never done it before so here goes....

 

[silva.foxx]

IN: 3x380-460V 50/60Hz 32A 27A

3ph 415v 50Hz input with a max. current of 32A

You must admit a 32A mcb is a little near the mark for this supply. All the heat is centred around this mcb, ie. device and cable, perhaps due to 'current restriction through the tight passage of the mcb!'

I'd still go for the mcb and feed cable upgrade...

What do you have upstream of the mcb?

 

[Crustycracker]

SF - The 32A MCB is part of a Merlin G dist bd. Down stream of that is obviously the main switch which is fed in something like 120mm singles from an adjacent Asco change-over switch which is fed from a BS88 type fuse carrier in the main mechanical services panel from 2 seperate feeds (A & B).
Thing is tho' if the cable is only carrying about 23A, tong tested, why the heat???? It must be something to do with the harmonics. Altho Danfoss recommend the use of SWA or SY cable and cartridge fuses they don't make it clear what would happen if you don't.
I am getting costs for the SY on Monday. I have to get this problem tied up next week, have all the managers doing a site walkabout the week after so I need to get all the trunk lids and covers back.
I may use them link blocks (MGTB1001) and put an extra cartridge fuse for each pump also.
I wish I had an open check book for this because I still prefer using the existing metal trunking for this and the Kopex as it looks more in keeping with the pump bay. Its going to be a real pain in the rear side having to run in a seperate route for 3 new surface mounted cables. Plus I am quite limited on wall space for mounting this extra stuff.

 

[benji]

I think you would have to change cable from inverter to pump from singles to swa or sy to give it some form of screening

 

[johnboy6083]

for interest, i found this link for info about harmonics, an ways of minimzing effects.

HARMONICS

 

[Crustycracker]

Thanks, I have saved as a favourite for the time being. Will have a look in the morning.

Done my sentence at work for the day. Back with renewed vigour (just about) in the morning. I'll probably print it all out depending how long it is.

 

[silva.foxx]

SF - The 32A MCB is part of a Merlin G dist bd. Down stream of that is obviously the main switch which is fed in something like 120mm singles from an adjacent Asco change-over switch which is fed from a BS88 type fuse carrier in the main mechanical services panel from 2 seperate feeds (A & B).
Thing is tho' if the cable is only carrying about 23A, tong tested, why the heat????

So there's plenty of room for increasing supplies to these inverters...
Manual states inverter want a steady input current of 27A with instantaneous currents up to 32A (as in the rating on the nameplate you provided) and is to be protected by 40A motor rated fuses... not an undersized mcb.

Manual -

It must be something to do with the harmonics. Altho Danfoss recommend the use of SWA or SY cable and cartridge fuses they don't make it clear what would happen if you don't.

It's easy to blame 'harmonics - the bit we don't understand' but the install sounds as if it's undersized on the supply side. You have to get that bit right first, probably lowest cost, before getting into adding filters and magic boxes.

The fuses will give better protection.

All installs should be done to manuf. recommendations - they're the ones who've researched their products and put the pointers in place to make it work as intended.

 

[boballum]

Cable calcs are based upon a conductor operating temp of 70c (as Im sure you know!!) the simple solution is to increase the conductor CSA to reduce the heat, your harmonics will flow down the CPC and this must be sized appropriatley to comply with the regs on fault current

Pay attention to all manufacturers instructions (its a reg now!!) even if they seem over the top then you have something to fall back on if it goes ---- up!

 

[Knobhead]

Will anyone listen!
Contact Danfose about inline reactors to reduce harmonics.

 

[Crustycracker]

I'm off home in 10mins but I thought I'd just see how this thread was running.

I have had another look at the area around the dist bd. There is absolutely no way that 3 new cartridge fuse isolators will fit externally around the db. I am tempted by SF to order a 45A MCB (Type C), some tri-rated 10mm singles (RS 628-5493...rated @75A) and the same in 16mm earth (CPC size as required in the manual) and install just one new circuit and suck it and see. The length of run is about 7.5mts from the MCB to the inverter in 75mm steel trunking.
It's annoying because I wish I had known this 4 years ago when the contractors installed it. I could have made them rip it out at their expense. Chances are they were totally unaware of the potential problem themselves. Due to the way all the trunkings and conduits are now running along the walls it is impossible to fit SY cable and glands without making the job look like a pigs ear. I certainly wouldn't want to put my name to it. I dont think 3 x 10mm SY cables could all run inside the trunking either.
Just out of interest, is the CPC a 'live' or functional earth? For example, if I was to disconnect it while the inverter was running then would there become a voltage potential on the flying CPC until it was grounded down to the metalwork again. If this is not the case then would it be possible to link the inverter CPC's and carry a single one back the db instead of having individual 3 CPC's going into the db? This is just a loud thought.

Will catch up tomorrow, thanks all.

 

[Crustycracker]

Tony, Danfoss were quite helpful when I originally asked them about this problem but after all that they pointed me to the installation manual on the website which I had never seen before (nor sure if you are aware...we inherited this set up when we moved into the site).
They mentioned harmonics but said that if the cables were screened (SWA or SY) then it should stop or reduce harmonics. I only wish that with my knowledge now I could have put this lot in yself from scratch. Wonderful thing hindsite.

 

[silva.foxx]

@Tony... with the greatest of respect we are listening to what you've stated, but we have to look at the basics first. I, plus a few others, believe the supply to the inverters is undersized, and the install clearly does not match the requirements of the Danfoss design guide, written by Danfoss to provide trouble free operation of a Danfoss product.

To me, the heat is concentrated at and around the mcb. The mcb is conducting currents it can't handle thermally. The mcb appears to be the bottle-neck in the supply.

Please explain to me (or us) the phenomena of harmonics so we can understand. How do you assimilate the symptoms of harmonics to what the OP has stated in this thread?

I'm quite thick so please supplement the following document with layman's terms, please? Technical notes - Reducing harmonics caused by variable speed drives - Fact File

More info Expertise in HVAC Drives

Danfoss "facts worth knowing" http://daneenergy.co.uk/Documents/Facts Worth Knowing.pdf


As the OP has mentioned... try uprating one circuit first... if no joy... get professionals in to do Harmonics analysis.

Crustycracker... thanks for the continuation of this thread. Good info.

 

[netblindpaul]

IF the installer was not fully aware of the possibilities of Harmonics or other phenomena from VSD's then they should never have installed the equipment as they were not competent to do so.
They would be legally required to have full understanding of the manufacturers instructions to comply with 7671 which may or may not apply depending on the exact situation, there is also, 60204-1, PUWER98 & EAWR89 & the management regs to consider.
We never allowed isolators or any control devices between our drives and motors to comply with our instructions when I worked for a VSD/Servo drive manufacturer end of story, any subsequent controls rendered the drive & motor warranty invalid, thus would render the compliance with any statutory etc. legislation invalid also.
Harmonics can be a complex field Silva, there are many things that can affect their generation and any affect they have.
This is not something that can be taught via an internet forum IMHO sorry.

 

[silva.foxx]

Harmonics can be a complex field Silva, there are many things that can affect their generation and any affect they have.
This is not something that can be taught via an internet forum IMHO sorry.

Great

Not interested in learning about harmonics... just interested to understand how others here can suggest without evidence that harmonics is at work in the install described by the OP.

As said... I'm as thick as a gurkha's... so the science of harmonics is way above me... so I'd never diagnose a problem with such... but I'd like to think I could diagnose a failure, with use of the design guide of a product.

Perhaps netblindpaul, with your drive background, you could offer some valid argument to the heating problems identifed in the 1st post.

Pretty good read without being too techie: http://hi-techelectricalsystems.com/effects_of_harmonic_currents.htm

.

 

[raithrovers1]

The output of the inverter will not be a true sine wave and therefore measuring the output with a current clamp can give false readings. It is always better to use the inverter display for current readings as it is electronically measured. I suspect the drive is supplying at least 27A.
Here is an extract from an article:

"Harmonics, non-linear spikes, and reflections are common power distortions. In rush currents is an additional problem that the motor and cable are subjected to. Harmonics are multiples of a fundamental frequency. As an example if the fundamental frequency is 60 Hertz, the 5​

th harmonic is 300 Hertz (5x60). Power distortions are caused by harmonic frequencies. Some harmonic frequencies are “in-phase” with the fundamental frequency and rotate in the same direction as the field, except more quickly due to the higher harmonic frequency. This condition causes the power, both voltage and current of each harmonic to add to the voltage and current of the fundamental frequency. Keep in mind that the power in the fundamental frequency is all that is needed or wanted. The additional power from the harmonic frequencies cause overheating, high voltage
stress and also confuse electronic functions that depend on the fundamental frequency for clock or timing functions. The added harmonic power also affects the motor and power supply cables."
I know its a bit brain numbing but it is why they suggest using the correct sheilded cable to reduce harmonics.​

 

[Crustycracker]

PHEW!!!. My coffee just went down the wrong hole after reading that.

Well, I guess its time to decide. I'm going to order some 16mm 4c SY cable, some 16mm CPC and 45A MCBs. I don't quite know how I will get the instalation to look half decent but I'll come up with something. When its in, hopefully later this week, I'll come back to this thread and update you all.
It has been one hell of a thread I can tell you all, very consuming and interesting. Like SF, I don't have a clue about harmonics. Its like rocket science, did it at college and glazed over then. I have never installed inverters, during my time on the tools they were quite rare, but I have maintained site that already had them, they worked, you left them alone. That's my experience with them, grim I know. Anyhow thankyou all for your donations here its been an experience.
I'm off to make my order. I'll let you know how much it cost as well. I'm glad it's not my time and money.

 

[netblindpaul]

silva,
The way an inverter messes with the normal a.c. sinewave can cause all sorts of issues.
The switching frequency could be up to 16kHz, ours were 2.3, 4, 8 & 16 in the PWM drives, the standard inverters had combined controls & I can't remember the exact frequencies off the top of my head.

I'll have to re-read the OP in a couple of days.
Though i'm not sure that throwing some new sy at it will necessarily work?
What glands are you going to use, please don't say skintop, trs or plastic stuffing!

As far as I can see I would need soem more info on the drives and motors really to comment.
If I was doing the application from scratch then I would not have done it the way it is coming across.
BTW I used to work for a competitor of Danfoss doing service & applications.

 

[silva.foxx]

As we're 4/5 pages on from OP, here's a summary;

3 off installs of:

Danfoss VLT 6022 3ph inverter supplying a 15kw pump motor (Armstrong Starline 80-200-15 (15kw). Currently an 8m 6mm2 singles feed via 32A mcb (previously 25A) in 3" steel trunking to inverter. Singles out to motor via Kopex.

Problem: overheating mcb and first 3" of feed singles becoming brittle.

Cables pulling 23A (read by clamp meter). Inverter displaying 27A (motor draw).

Inverter plate details http://www.electriciansforums.net/a...ng-hot-cables-danfoss-inverter-info-plate.jpg

MerlinG dist. board with no provision to retro-fit using BS88 fuses externally.

Undersized supply and harmonics appear to be the main 'topics of debate'.

OP uprating inverter feed cable and mcb this week. Update to follow.


.

 

[netblindpaul]

Thanks silva,

Quick comment over dinner.
How are the singles run exactly, are they all through the same apperture in the ferrous enclosures?
Are there any photos kicking around?
Has the OP clamped the motor.
I'll have to dig out the inverter manual unless anyone has a link?

Be back later.

 

[silva.foxx]

Manual -

 

[netblindpaul]

Crusty,
The MCB's are on the supply side of the inverter yes?
Are there any devices between the inverter & the motor?
Do you have the motor rating plate data?
What is the R2 between the inverter earth plate and the motor?
The 23A clamp reading is on the ip to the inverter or the op from?
The 27A is from the inverter display yes?

 

[jtw11373]

Where I'm from the harmonics issue is handled by the power company at the substation, has something to do with frequency(hertz) I believe jtw

 

[Crustycracker]

All, sorry, been away for a couple of days. My stuff has arrived to install cabling according to the Danfoss install manual.

Using 4c x 16mm SY flex (with screen) and an extra 16mm CPC. Using 45A MCBs from Merlin DB and isolator before the inverters as there will be no local isolation. Using fused isolator, like an MEM switch fuse, 63A rated with 40A BS88 fuses in it. Quite expensive all that lot.

Trouble is cant do it until late next week now as i been called off to another site for a few days. Pain in the rear side.

 

[BennettsElec]

hi,
In my opinion Harmonics are not causing this problem.
Many large drives 75kw and upwards would cause Harmonic problems with heat etc at your supply transformer, not on your supply cables. Make sure you use some kind of screened cable and earth BOTH ends, also make the screen off as close to the inverter terminals as possible thus not introducing an ammplifying effect. (sorry just good practice)
Approximately 28amp FLC on a 15kw (either 2p or 4p) motor. Depending on manufacturer.
The nature of the inverter is to give more current out than that of being taken in, and if the drive is giving 27amps out then i would suggest that the motor is nearing on FLC.
it looks like, as usually happens, they have done an upgrade on their pumps but not taken into account the supply cables. these motors should never have been supplied/ protected by 25amp breakers.
Rich

 

[Crustycracker]

Got all the stuff delivered today. Not installed SY this big before. You want to see size of the special SY glands. 32mm hole, never realised that, going to give me a headache getting them drilled into the DB. Job planned out now, just need some time to do the install. Will start next Thursday when I'm back on site. Bit annoyed really, would like to have steamed into in Monday but never mind.
Won't be updating until then guys. Will get the first one done and fill you in. Thanks for all your contributions.