UK Do I need to update my 18th edition for Amendment 2 ?

[DPG]

I've just read one of the other threads where the OP says he carries out EICRs for £85. I suppose that's possible when you bend the rules to suit you - then you can undercut other people.

Apologies if that's a bit rude or unfair. I just find this thread a little hard to swallow.

 

[westward10]

@Brian Taylor are you aware of the requirements for SPDs, AFDDs, type A rcd/rcbos.

 

[ferg]

Only being able to charge £15 per hour is now starting to make more sense.

 

[Julie.]

@Brian Taylor are you aware of the requirements for...AFDDs, ........

Try post 114

AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment

Definition of shall: "Shall" is a modal verb used to indicate future action. It is most commonly used in sentences with "I" or "we," and is often found in suggestions, such as "Shall we go?" "Shall" is also frequently used in promises or voluntary actions. There is a difference between shall...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[westward10]

Oh dear.

 

[DPG]

Try post 114

AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment

Definition of shall: "Shall" is a modal verb used to indicate future action. It is most commonly used in sentences with "I" or "we," and is often found in suggestions, such as "Shall we go?" "Shall" is also frequently used in promises or voluntary actions. There is a difference between shall...

www.electriciansforums.net

Oh my. I replied to that comment. Do you think it was a serious question?

 

[Brian Taylor]

Are you being serious?

If you drive down the road without a seat belt - because when you learnt to drive it wasn't mandatory (pre '83) do you think the police/courts would say "ah ok you can't be expected to know all the ins and outs of the regulations, they should be considered just guidance as long as you made an effort"

Absolutely not, you even as an individual are expected to ensure you are up to date with this sort of thing.

As a professional, it will be even more expected for you to be up to date with all aspects of your job, it is after all your profession.

I am obviously not a lawyer, but I do try to keep up with the rules and regulations that impact my job, these are contained in a range of documents, obviously the 18th is the most significant one, but the electricity at work act, building regulations, and various others such as Puwer etc.

Of course I am aware of the requirements to use a seat belt...that requirement was well and truly advertised in the press and television, however I don't belive that the majority of drivers are fully conversant with all the finer points of the High way code...there are just too many of them. By the same token very few will be fully conversant with every aspect of the regulations....and can't be expected to be so...we simply interpret it to the best of our abilities...some aspects can be highly subjective. But I think as long as we refrain from anything very silly we can be happy that we are doing our best.

 

[loz2754]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

 

[loz2754]

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

You can make a start by downloading and reading the Part P document perhaps? It's a free download.

Electrical safety: Approved Document P

Building Regulation in England covering electrical safety in dwellings.

www.gov.uk

 

[Julie.]

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

That's not true Brian, following your comments on this thread I had a quick look at your other posts on other threads, you discussed the part p notification process a few months ago.

It may have been the same thread where you said you would provide blank signed EICRS for your customers if they wanted, but could be another one.

 

[DPG]

I really hope nembers of the public aren't reading this thread.

 

[Julie.]

Of course I am aware of the requirements to use a seat belt...that requirement was well and truly advertised in the press and television, however I don't belive that the majority of drivers are fully conversant with all the finer points of the High way code...there are just too many of them. By the same token very few will be fully conversant with every aspect of the regulations....and can't be expected to be so...we simply interpret it to the best of our abilities...some aspects can be highly subjective. But I think as long as we refrain from anything very silly we can be happy that we are doing our best.

To an extent.

Under the law, if you break any traffic law you are judged, in the case of dangerous driving for example, if your driving falls significantly below the standard of a typical cautious driver, or just below that standard for careless driving.

It would be the same as an electrician, you would be judged on whether the work you did met the standard expected by a competent electrician.

How do you think you would compare in the eyes of a jury or judge?

No updated training on regulations for approx 15 year (with 4-5 "new" versions in that time).

Not complying with the law on part P - again introduced a long time ago.

Performing inspection and issuing satisfactory reports when ~15 years out of date with the latest regulations.

Potentially breaches of the building regulations (you can't say you're compliant as you said you don't know about them).

Etc.

I doubt a court would see this as a professional electrician doing their best.

Yes, if you were up to date, had complied with all the parts, but had made a simple or perhaps technical challenging error, then a court may accept you did make every reasonable effort.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

I guess I was not in an environment where anyone thought in necessary to inform me of this requirement

That's not true Brian, following your comments on this thread I had a quick look at your other posts on other threads, you discussed the part p notification process a few months ago.

It may have been the same thread where you said you would provide blank signed EICRS for your customers if they wanted, but could be another one.

To an extent.

Under the law, if you break any traffic law you are judged, in the case of dangerous driving for example, if your driving falls significantly below the standard of a typical cautious driver, or just below that standard for careless driving.

It would be the same as an electrician, you would be judged on whether the work you did met the standard expected by a competent electrician.

How do you think you would compare in the eyes of a jury or judge?

No updated training on regulations for approx 15 year (with 4-5 "new" versions in that time).

Not complying with the law on part P - again introduced a long time ago.

Performing inspection and issuing satisfactory reports when ~15 years out of date with the latest regulations.

Potentially breaches of the building regulations (you can't say you're compliant as you said you don't know about them).

Etc.

I doubt a court would see this as a professional electrician doing their best.

Yes, if you were up to date, had complied with all the parts, but had made a simple or perhaps technical challenging error, then a court may accept you did make every reasonable effort.

Well first and foremost surely I can be competent to carry out the basic works that I do without having to be fully up to date with the latest regulations..I passed my driving test in 1972...I have not been required to upgrade or site additional exams or tests during that time..the fact that I have not done so does not make me a bad or dangerous driver..indeed the many years of experience makes more able to read the road and be more aware of what other drivers are doing...as in my driving analogy..my 40 years of electrical experience may well make me a safer operative than someone with lesser time in the job. When I first started work we still had electricians that had grandfather rights...that is to say.they had worked their way up by dint of experience and not by academic achievements, this lake of paperwork did not make them bad electrician's, infact many were very skilled at what they did.
Secondly define if you would please a competent electrician...
I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.
Thirdly, I don't think we as electricians could be classified as professionals..this accolade refers to those who have attained a higher level in education and employment such as doctors, legal people engineers etc, ..electricians although skilled cannot be seen as such and as such be held to the same strict standards. We are manual workers and people's expectations of us are a good deal lower than those at the top. I can appreciate that many people tend to refer to themselves as professionals (God help us we have refuse executives in their area)
When of course we all know that they're simply binmen...it is simply bigging yourself up a appear more important than you really are.

 

[DPG]

I've just been looking at some of your old posts. You knew full well about the requirements to notify jobs and about the appropriate schemes back in July 2020 !! And here we are in November 2022 and you still plead ignorance.

You also said you wouldn't buy the current regs until they came down to a lower price.

Unbelievable!!

 

[mainline]

Just so I'm clear, you've been doing electrical work, including new circuits and consumer units, for years without notifying anybody?

Why do you think it 'shouldn't cost you anything' ?

It seems a bit dodgy that you don't want to pay money to notify work, and you don't want to pay money to take courses.

Presumably you do issues EICs and MW certs for the work though?

It sounds to me like he's on a wind up.

 

[DPG]

It sounds to me like he's on a wind up.

It has crossed my mind too. We are perhaps bring taken in.

 

[timhoward]

I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.

If we take you at your word, then the exceptionally irritating thing is that until last year there was a way to do exactly that, prove competency by demonstration (3 written exams and 1 practical exam). So you missed the chance to get 18th edition (1 exam) and quietly get into a CPS scheme through the back door. Sadly for you that option has now gone away.

 

[Spoon]

I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.

How can you say your work is safe if you don't even know the up-to-date regs?
e.g. Do you install your cables so that premature collapse in an event of a fire is not an issue?
From your posts I can only assume you don't.

edit: I'm with the opinions above that this is all just a wind up.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Or every time you do a Jon you notify building control and add that into the cost of the job.

I change a lot of sockets.