UK Do I need to update my 18th edition for Amendment 2 ?

[DPG]

No just didn't know about the new requirements...as far as I'm aware I've got my C&G certificate that says I'm an electrician..so no problem as far as I can see...
Many be I'm incorrect in that thinking

Do you issue EICs and MW certs though?

 

[Rapskallion]

Find it very hard to believe that somebody with 40 years electrical experience is oblivious about anything to do with Part P and notifying domestic works, unless of course you are just an employee and your employer takes care of all this
but i hope you find the information you are looking for, all the best.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Fixed that for you squire.

No I was correct in my first statement...as far as I know non of the electricians that I know are aware of these requirements

 

[default]

Been doing it for about 40 years now...not sure why I should be taken to court over anything....what would anyone gain from that

Been doing it for about 40 years now...not sure why I should be taken to court over anything....what would anyone gain from that?

I mean if something went wrong, not saying it would. If I had work done then got a bad shock or my kids did and then found out your not registered to any governing body I'd take you for all you've got. These schemes are there to protect you. And if you haven't updated your knowledge in 40 years God knows what your doing.

 

[DPG]

This thread is a bit scary. I don't intend being rude but I really think you should check what the requirements of an electrician are. It's in your own interests to be honest.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Do you issue EICs and MW certs though?

Well I guess like most I purchase pads of certificates from the wholesalers

 

[DPG]

Well I guess like most I purchase pads of certificates from the wholesalers

Yep fair enough, just wondered.

 

[Brian Taylor]

I mean if something went wrong, not saying it would. If I had work done then got a bad shock or my kids did and then found out your not registered to any governing body I'd take you for all you've got. These schemes are there to protect you. And if you haven't updated your knowledge in 40 years God knows what your doing.

But surely if its not mandatory to belong to one of these organisation hiw can I be prosecuted?...in addition I carry insurance ..the problem would be theirs

 

[DPG]

But surely if its not mandatory to belong to one of these organisation hiw can I be prosecuted?...in addition I carry insurance ..the problem would be theirs

Do you make sure the customer notifies the work by any chance?

 

[Brian Taylor]

Do you make sure the customer notifies the work by any chance?

No but I wouldn't have as I have no knowledge of the requirements

 

[Brian Taylor]

Find it very hard to believe that somebody with 40 years electrical experience is oblivious about anything to do with Part P and notifying domestic works, unless of course you are just an employee and your employer takes care of all this
but i hope you find the information you are looking for, all the best.

Many thanks Sir

 

[Julie.]

But surely if its not mandatory to belong to one of these organisation hiw can I be prosecuted?...in addition I carry insurance ..the problem would be theirs

No it wouldn't!


If you do any work especially for paying customers it is your responsibility to do the job safely and in line with all regulations. (You could be held accountable under law if you don't)

Remember, that's ALL regulations, not just the electrical ones you learnt 40 years ago.

If you cut holes in joists, or position outlets, all this has to be in-line with building regulations, the C&G or 18th edition only extends to the electrical aspects, not the whole job.

The building regulations specify many aspects of the day to day work of all electricians - just not the electrical bits.

Part P specifically mandates that certain work is notifiable to the local building control, this includes electrical work in kitchens, bathrooms, new circuits etc. etc.

It is actually an offence in law not to notify.

Insurance generally covers you for errors (put too big a hole in a joist which then collapses etc) but won't necessarily cover you if there is systematic breaches of regulations, as this would be considered deliberate, it also won't protect you from flagrantly breaking the law.

 

[default]

But surely if its not mandatory to belong to one of these organisation hiw can I be prosecuted?...in addition I carry insurance ..the problem would be theirs

If your doing anything other than EICRs or changing a bedroom/living room light or replacing a socket front then it is mandatory.

 

[default]

If your doing anything other than EICRs or changing a bedroom/living room light or replacing a socket front then it is mandatory.

Or every time you do a Jon you notify building control and add that into the cost of the job.

 

[Brian Taylor]

No it wouldn't!


If you do any work especially for paying customers it is your responsibility to do the job safely and in line with all regulations. (You could be held accountable under law if you don't)

Remember, that's ALL regulations, not just the electrical ones you learnt 40 years ago.

If you cut holes in joists, or position outlets, all this has to be in-line with building regulations, the C&G or 18th edition only extends to the electrical aspects, not the whole job.

The building regulations specify many aspects of the day to day work of all electricians - just not the electrical bits.

Part P specifically mandates that certain work is notifiable to the local building control, this includes electrical work in kitchens, bathrooms, new circuits etc. etc.

It is actually an offence in law not to notify.

Insurance generally covers you for errors (put too big a hole in a joist which then collapses etc) but won't necessarily cover you if there is systematic breaches of regulations, as this would be considered deliberate, it also won't protect you from flagrantly breaking the law.

Wow sounds like you're a lawyer....as a box standard electrician I can't be expected to know the ins and outs of the building regulations..indeed I don't belive that I am required to have an in depth knowledge of the electrical regulations ...they are for guidance only not for blind obedience to..yes I can agree that gross stupidity cannot be excused but I don't belive that the law imposes such Draconian requirements as to expect us to know everything What we do.
As far as I'm aware we only have to carry out our work to our best endeavours...with reasonable skill...we are not expected to be the top of our field..only reasonable.

 

[default]

Wow sounds like you're a lawyer....as a box standard electrician I can't be expected to know the ins and outs of the building regulations..indeed I don't belive that I am required to have an in depth knowledge of the electrical regulations ...they are for guidance only not for blind obedience to..yes I can agree that gross stupidity cannot be excused but I don't belive that the law imposes such Draconian requirements as to expect us to know everything What we do.
As far as I'm aware we only have to carry out our work to our best endeavours...with reasonable skill...we are not expected to be the top of our field..only reasonable.

Wow. I'm ducking out of this one, clearly you don't won't to hear what people have to say and you clearly don't won't to take any of it on board. You might as well carry on regardless. Be lucky.

 

[DPG]

Wow sounds like you're a lawyer....as a box standard electrician I can't be expected to know the ins and outs of the building regulations..indeed I don't belive that I am required to have an in depth knowledge of the electrical regulations ...they are for guidance only not for blind obedience to..yes I can agree that gross stupidity cannot be excused but I don't belive that the law imposes such Draconian requirements as to expect us to know everything What we do.
As far as I'm aware we only have to carry out our work to our best endeavours...with reasonable skill...we are not expected to be the top of our field..only reasonable.

Wow!

 

[Julie.]

Wow sounds like you're a lawyer....as a box standard electrician I can't be expected to know the ins and outs of the building regulations..indeed I don't belive that I am required to have an in depth knowledge of the electrical regulations ...they are for guidance only not for blind obedience to..yes I can agree that gross stupidity cannot be excused but I don't belive that the law imposes such Draconian requirements as to expect us to know everything What we do.
As far as I'm aware we only have to carry out our work to our best endeavours...with reasonable skill...we are not expected to be the top of our field..only reasonable.

Are you being serious?

If you drive down the road without a seat belt - because when you learnt to drive it wasn't mandatory (pre '83) do you think the police/courts would say "ah ok you can't be expected to know all the ins and outs of the regulations, they should be considered just guidance as long as you made an effort"

Absolutely not, you even as an individual are expected to ensure you are up to date with this sort of thing.

As a professional, it will be even more expected for you to be up to date with all aspects of your job, it is after all your profession.

I am obviously not a lawyer, but I do try to keep up with the rules and regulations that impact my job, these are contained in a range of documents, obviously the 18th is the most significant one, but the electricity at work act, building regulations, and various others such as Puwer etc.

 

[westward10]

@Brian Taylor are you winding us up because quite frankly unless you have been on another planet I find it difficult to believe you are unaware of Part P and its requirements.

 

[timhoward]

With no offence intended it sounds as though the OP has been somewhat living under a rock since about Jan 2005. Before that date the manner of working described was common.
There were even signs in the electrical aisle at B&Q about it when it changed so its astonishing if he genuinely has no knowledge of it.

 

[DPG]

I've just read one of the other threads where the OP says he carries out EICRs for £85. I suppose that's possible when you bend the rules to suit you - then you can undercut other people.

Apologies if that's a bit rude or unfair. I just find this thread a little hard to swallow.

 

[westward10]

@Brian Taylor are you aware of the requirements for SPDs, AFDDs, type A rcd/rcbos.

 

[ferg]

Only being able to charge £15 per hour is now starting to make more sense.

 

[Julie.]

@Brian Taylor are you aware of the requirements for...AFDDs, ........

Try post 114

AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment - Page 3 - in - Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations

, AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment, Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations, ElectriciansForums.net Est.2006 | Free Electrical Advice Forum and page_number.

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[westward10]

Oh dear.

 

[DPG]

Try post 114

AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment - Page 3 - in - Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations

, AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment, Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations, ElectriciansForums.net Est.2006 | Free Electrical Advice Forum and page_number.

www.electriciansforums.net

Oh my. I replied to that comment. Do you think it was a serious question?

 

[Brian Taylor]

Are you being serious?

If you drive down the road without a seat belt - because when you learnt to drive it wasn't mandatory (pre '83) do you think the police/courts would say "ah ok you can't be expected to know all the ins and outs of the regulations, they should be considered just guidance as long as you made an effort"

Absolutely not, you even as an individual are expected to ensure you are up to date with this sort of thing.

As a professional, it will be even more expected for you to be up to date with all aspects of your job, it is after all your profession.

I am obviously not a lawyer, but I do try to keep up with the rules and regulations that impact my job, these are contained in a range of documents, obviously the 18th is the most significant one, but the electricity at work act, building regulations, and various others such as Puwer etc.

Of course I am aware of the requirements to use a seat belt...that requirement was well and truly advertised in the press and television, however I don't belive that the majority of drivers are fully conversant with all the finer points of the High way code...there are just too many of them. By the same token very few will be fully conversant with every aspect of the regulations....and can't be expected to be so...we simply interpret it to the best of our abilities...some aspects can be highly subjective. But I think as long as we refrain from anything very silly we can be happy that we are doing our best.

 

[loz2754]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

 

[loz2754]

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

You can make a start by downloading and reading the Part P document perhaps? It's a free download.

Electrical safety: Approved Document P

Building Regulation in England covering electrical safety in dwellings.

www.gov.uk

 

[Julie.]

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

That's not true Brian, following your comments on this thread I had a quick look at your other posts on other threads, you discussed the part p notification process a few months ago.

It may have been the same thread where you said you would provide blank signed EICRS for your customers if they wanted, but could be another one.

 

[DPG]

I really hope nembers of the public aren't reading this thread.

 

[Julie.]

Of course I am aware of the requirements to use a seat belt...that requirement was well and truly advertised in the press and television, however I don't belive that the majority of drivers are fully conversant with all the finer points of the High way code...there are just too many of them. By the same token very few will be fully conversant with every aspect of the regulations....and can't be expected to be so...we simply interpret it to the best of our abilities...some aspects can be highly subjective. But I think as long as we refrain from anything very silly we can be happy that we are doing our best.

To an extent.

Under the law, if you break any traffic law you are judged, in the case of dangerous driving for example, if your driving falls significantly below the standard of a typical cautious driver, or just below that standard for careless driving.

It would be the same as an electrician, you would be judged on whether the work you did met the standard expected by a competent electrician.

How do you think you would compare in the eyes of a jury or judge?

No updated training on regulations for approx 15 year (with 4-5 "new" versions in that time).

Not complying with the law on part P - again introduced a long time ago.

Performing inspection and issuing satisfactory reports when ~15 years out of date with the latest regulations.

Potentially breaches of the building regulations (you can't say you're compliant as you said you don't know about them).

Etc.

I doubt a court would see this as a professional electrician doing their best.

Yes, if you were up to date, had complied with all the parts, but had made a simple or perhaps technical challenging error, then a court may accept you did make every reasonable effort.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

I guess I was not in an environment where anyone thought in necessary to inform me of this requirement

That's not true Brian, following your comments on this thread I had a quick look at your other posts on other threads, you discussed the part p notification process a few months ago.

It may have been the same thread where you said you would provide blank signed EICRS for your customers if they wanted, but could be another one.

To an extent.

Under the law, if you break any traffic law you are judged, in the case of dangerous driving for example, if your driving falls significantly below the standard of a typical cautious driver, or just below that standard for careless driving.

It would be the same as an electrician, you would be judged on whether the work you did met the standard expected by a competent electrician.

How do you think you would compare in the eyes of a jury or judge?

No updated training on regulations for approx 15 year (with 4-5 "new" versions in that time).

Not complying with the law on part P - again introduced a long time ago.

Performing inspection and issuing satisfactory reports when ~15 years out of date with the latest regulations.

Potentially breaches of the building regulations (you can't say you're compliant as you said you don't know about them).

Etc.

I doubt a court would see this as a professional electrician doing their best.

Yes, if you were up to date, had complied with all the parts, but had made a simple or perhaps technical challenging error, then a court may accept you did make every reasonable effort.

Well first and foremost surely I can be competent to carry out the basic works that I do without having to be fully up to date with the latest regulations..I passed my driving test in 1972...I have not been required to upgrade or site additional exams or tests during that time..the fact that I have not done so does not make me a bad or dangerous driver..indeed the many years of experience makes more able to read the road and be more aware of what other drivers are doing...as in my driving analogy..my 40 years of electrical experience may well make me a safer operative than someone with lesser time in the job. When I first started work we still had electricians that had grandfather rights...that is to say.they had worked their way up by dint of experience and not by academic achievements, this lake of paperwork did not make them bad electrician's, infact many were very skilled at what they did.
Secondly define if you would please a competent electrician...
I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.
Thirdly, I don't think we as electricians could be classified as professionals..this accolade refers to those who have attained a higher level in education and employment such as doctors, legal people engineers etc, ..electricians although skilled cannot be seen as such and as such be held to the same strict standards. We are manual workers and people's expectations of us are a good deal lower than those at the top. I can appreciate that many people tend to refer to themselves as professionals (God help us we have refuse executives in their area)
When of course we all know that they're simply binmen...it is simply bigging yourself up a appear more important than you really are.

 

[DPG]

I've just been looking at some of your old posts. You knew full well about the requirements to notify jobs and about the appropriate schemes back in July 2020 !! And here we are in November 2022 and you still plead ignorance.

You also said you wouldn't buy the current regs until they came down to a lower price.

Unbelievable!!

 

[mainline]

Just so I'm clear, you've been doing electrical work, including new circuits and consumer units, for years without notifying anybody?

Why do you think it 'shouldn't cost you anything' ?

It seems a bit dodgy that you don't want to pay money to notify work, and you don't want to pay money to take courses.

Presumably you do issues EICs and MW certs for the work though?

It sounds to me like he's on a wind up.

 

[DPG]

It sounds to me like he's on a wind up.

It has crossed my mind too. We are perhaps bring taken in.

 

[timhoward]

I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.

If we take you at your word, then the exceptionally irritating thing is that until last year there was a way to do exactly that, prove competency by demonstration (3 written exams and 1 practical exam). So you missed the chance to get 18th edition (1 exam) and quietly get into a CPS scheme through the back door. Sadly for you that option has now gone away.

 

[Spoon]

I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.

How can you say your work is safe if you don't even know the up-to-date regs?
e.g. Do you install your cables so that premature collapse in an event of a fire is not an issue?
From your posts I can only assume you don't.

edit: I'm with the opinions above that this is all just a wind up.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Or every time you do a Jon you notify building control and add that into the cost of the job.

I change a lot of sockets.