UK Do I need to update my 18th edition for Amendment 2 ?

[Ventricular Fibrillation]

Got my 18th Ed certificate late last year, now doing 2391. Obviously Amendment 2 has come out since then, and I see these courses available to update your 18th accordingly.
But at what point would this be needed? I assume it's not a legal requirement. If I got my 2391 and NVQ in the next year and applied for a gold card, would my 18th cert be classed as not current unless I update it? Thanks.

 

[DPG]

I've just read one of the other threads where the OP says he carries out EICRs for £85. I suppose that's possible when you bend the rules to suit you - then you can undercut other people.

Apologies if that's a bit rude or unfair. I just find this thread a little hard to swallow.

 

[westward10]

@Brian Taylor are you aware of the requirements for SPDs, AFDDs, type A rcd/rcbos.

 

[ferg]

Only being able to charge £15 per hour is now starting to make more sense.

 

[Julie.]

@Brian Taylor are you aware of the requirements for...AFDDs, ........

Try post 114

AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment

Definition of shall: "Shall" is a modal verb used to indicate future action. It is most commonly used in sentences with "I" or "we," and is often found in suggestions, such as "Shall we go?" "Shall" is also frequently used in promises or voluntary actions. There is a difference between shall...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[westward10]

Oh dear.

 

[DPG]

Try post 114

AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment

Definition of shall: "Shall" is a modal verb used to indicate future action. It is most commonly used in sentences with "I" or "we," and is often found in suggestions, such as "Shall we go?" "Shall" is also frequently used in promises or voluntary actions. There is a difference between shall...

www.electriciansforums.net

Oh my. I replied to that comment. Do you think it was a serious question?

 

[Brian Taylor]

Are you being serious?

If you drive down the road without a seat belt - because when you learnt to drive it wasn't mandatory (pre '83) do you think the police/courts would say "ah ok you can't be expected to know all the ins and outs of the regulations, they should be considered just guidance as long as you made an effort"

Absolutely not, you even as an individual are expected to ensure you are up to date with this sort of thing.

As a professional, it will be even more expected for you to be up to date with all aspects of your job, it is after all your profession.

I am obviously not a lawyer, but I do try to keep up with the rules and regulations that impact my job, these are contained in a range of documents, obviously the 18th is the most significant one, but the electricity at work act, building regulations, and various others such as Puwer etc.

Of course I am aware of the requirements to use a seat belt...that requirement was well and truly advertised in the press and television, however I don't belive that the majority of drivers are fully conversant with all the finer points of the High way code...there are just too many of them. By the same token very few will be fully conversant with every aspect of the regulations....and can't be expected to be so...we simply interpret it to the best of our abilities...some aspects can be highly subjective. But I think as long as we refrain from anything very silly we can be happy that we are doing our best.

 

[loz2754]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

 

[loz2754]

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

You can make a start by downloading and reading the Part P document perhaps? It's a free download.

Electrical safety: Approved Document P

Building Regulation in England covering electrical safety in dwellings.

www.gov.uk

 

[Julie.]

Yes but I was not aware of this until this afternoon...and I'm not too sure how I can resolve this in the short term .

That's not true Brian, following your comments on this thread I had a quick look at your other posts on other threads, you discussed the part p notification process a few months ago.

It may have been the same thread where you said you would provide blank signed EICRS for your customers if they wanted, but could be another one.

 

[DPG]

I really hope nembers of the public aren't reading this thread.

 

[Julie.]

Of course I am aware of the requirements to use a seat belt...that requirement was well and truly advertised in the press and television, however I don't belive that the majority of drivers are fully conversant with all the finer points of the High way code...there are just too many of them. By the same token very few will be fully conversant with every aspect of the regulations....and can't be expected to be so...we simply interpret it to the best of our abilities...some aspects can be highly subjective. But I think as long as we refrain from anything very silly we can be happy that we are doing our best.

To an extent.

Under the law, if you break any traffic law you are judged, in the case of dangerous driving for example, if your driving falls significantly below the standard of a typical cautious driver, or just below that standard for careless driving.

It would be the same as an electrician, you would be judged on whether the work you did met the standard expected by a competent electrician.

How do you think you would compare in the eyes of a jury or judge?

No updated training on regulations for approx 15 year (with 4-5 "new" versions in that time).

Not complying with the law on part P - again introduced a long time ago.

Performing inspection and issuing satisfactory reports when ~15 years out of date with the latest regulations.

Potentially breaches of the building regulations (you can't say you're compliant as you said you don't know about them).

Etc.

I doubt a court would see this as a professional electrician doing their best.

Yes, if you were up to date, had complied with all the parts, but had made a simple or perhaps technical challenging error, then a court may accept you did make every reasonable effort.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Following the wiring regulations is not a legal requirement in itself.

Following Part P of the building regulations is absolutely a legal requirement. How can anyone in the trade not be aware of this!!!

Part P came into force in 2005. And it's not just about notifiable works. It contains legal requirements for all electrical work done in domestic dwellings.

I guess I was not in an environment where anyone thought in necessary to inform me of this requirement

That's not true Brian, following your comments on this thread I had a quick look at your other posts on other threads, you discussed the part p notification process a few months ago.

It may have been the same thread where you said you would provide blank signed EICRS for your customers if they wanted, but could be another one.

To an extent.

Under the law, if you break any traffic law you are judged, in the case of dangerous driving for example, if your driving falls significantly below the standard of a typical cautious driver, or just below that standard for careless driving.

It would be the same as an electrician, you would be judged on whether the work you did met the standard expected by a competent electrician.

How do you think you would compare in the eyes of a jury or judge?

No updated training on regulations for approx 15 year (with 4-5 "new" versions in that time).

Not complying with the law on part P - again introduced a long time ago.

Performing inspection and issuing satisfactory reports when ~15 years out of date with the latest regulations.

Potentially breaches of the building regulations (you can't say you're compliant as you said you don't know about them).

Etc.

I doubt a court would see this as a professional electrician doing their best.

Yes, if you were up to date, had complied with all the parts, but had made a simple or perhaps technical challenging error, then a court may accept you did make every reasonable effort.

Well first and foremost surely I can be competent to carry out the basic works that I do without having to be fully up to date with the latest regulations..I passed my driving test in 1972...I have not been required to upgrade or site additional exams or tests during that time..the fact that I have not done so does not make me a bad or dangerous driver..indeed the many years of experience makes more able to read the road and be more aware of what other drivers are doing...as in my driving analogy..my 40 years of electrical experience may well make me a safer operative than someone with lesser time in the job. When I first started work we still had electricians that had grandfather rights...that is to say.they had worked their way up by dint of experience and not by academic achievements, this lake of paperwork did not make them bad electrician's, infact many were very skilled at what they did.
Secondly define if you would please a competent electrician...
I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.
Thirdly, I don't think we as electricians could be classified as professionals..this accolade refers to those who have attained a higher level in education and employment such as doctors, legal people engineers etc, ..electricians although skilled cannot be seen as such and as such be held to the same strict standards. We are manual workers and people's expectations of us are a good deal lower than those at the top. I can appreciate that many people tend to refer to themselves as professionals (God help us we have refuse executives in their area)
When of course we all know that they're simply binmen...it is simply bigging yourself up a appear more important than you really are.

 

[DPG]

I've just been looking at some of your old posts. You knew full well about the requirements to notify jobs and about the appropriate schemes back in July 2020 !! And here we are in November 2022 and you still plead ignorance.

You also said you wouldn't buy the current regs until they came down to a lower price.

Unbelievable!!

 

[mainline]

Just so I'm clear, you've been doing electrical work, including new circuits and consumer units, for years without notifying anybody?

Why do you think it 'shouldn't cost you anything' ?

It seems a bit dodgy that you don't want to pay money to notify work, and you don't want to pay money to take courses.

Presumably you do issues EICs and MW certs for the work though?

It sounds to me like he's on a wind up.

 

[DPG]

It sounds to me like he's on a wind up.

It has crossed my mind too. We are perhaps bring taken in.

 

[timhoward]

I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.

If we take you at your word, then the exceptionally irritating thing is that until last year there was a way to do exactly that, prove competency by demonstration (3 written exams and 1 practical exam). So you missed the chance to get 18th edition (1 exam) and quietly get into a CPS scheme through the back door. Sadly for you that option has now gone away.

 

[Spoon]

I'm pretty sure I could prove competecy to any reasonable person. I may not have the most up to date paperwork but that doesn't mean I'm not more or less conversant with safe installation work, it simply mean that I have not had the opertunity to be appraised of the up to date requirements to provide some sort of paperwork.

How can you say your work is safe if you don't even know the up-to-date regs?
e.g. Do you install your cables so that premature collapse in an event of a fire is not an issue?
From your posts I can only assume you don't.

edit: I'm with the opinions above that this is all just a wind up.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Or every time you do a Jon you notify building control and add that into the cost of the job.

I change a lot of sockets.

 

[Brian Taylor]

How can you say your work is safe if you don't even know the up-to-date regs?
e.g. Do you install your cables so that premature collapse in an event of a fire is not an issue?
From your posts I can only assume you don't.

edit: I'm with the opinions above that this is all just a wind up.

I'm guessing you are referring to the metal clips to support the cabling with plastic trunking?

 

[Julie.]

Secondly define if you would please a competent electrician...

Competency is outlined in the wiring regulations.

Competent electrician may be defined in several ways having minor differences, but essentially if you read the entry qualifications to be a member of the Competent persons scheme for the type of electrical work you do, that is typical of the standard used throughout the industry.

Essentially
Level 3 in installation (your C&G will do).
(Including testing)
Current regulations.
Current building regulations where applicable.
Demonstrate to an inspector that your work meets the current standards.

Etc.

Many councils also define this for acceptance of notifiable work from non-scheme members and for inspection work, for example:


submitted in connection with:
• Housing licensing applications under Parts 2 & 3 of ‘The Housing Act 2004’ (Mandatory
HMO, Additional HMO and Selective licensing)
or in compliance with;
• Regulation 3 (1) of ‘The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented sector (England)
Regulations 2020’ (SI 312:2020)
and
• Regulation 7 (3) of ‘The Licensing and Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation
(Additional Provisions) (England) Regulations 2007’ (SI 1903:2007) – as applicable to
‘Section 257 HMOs’,
has / have been produced by a person both qualified and specifically competent to undertake
inspection and testing of fixed electrical installations.
In line with current government guidance, the Local Housing Authority (LHA) may do this by:
1. checking if the inspector is a member of a relevant competent person scheme, via the
‘Registered Competent Person Electrical’ website:

Home

and / or
2. “requiring the inspector to sign a checklist certifying their competence, including their
experience, whether they have adequate insurance and hold a qualification covering
the current version of the wiring regulations and in the periodic inspection, testing and
certification of electrical installations”.

 

[Julie.]

I'm guessing you are referring to the metal clips to support the cabling with plastic trunking?

But it covers much more than that, you said your work is safe, so it must be compliant with the regulations.

If you do think your work is acceptable, just do a search on-line for 18th edition test questions.

You should find places where you can take a simulated exam on line for free, you should be able to skip through in 10-15mins (although you would be more careful and take your time in the real exam).

Now, I don't think you would pass as you by your own admission don't have the latest regs, but even without the latest you should be achieving 60%+

Perhaps that will give you a perspective on where you are/need to be.

We just have your posts and words to judge, so that isn't a real representation on your actual level.

 

[Brian Taylor]

I'm guessing you are referring to the metal clips to support the cabling with plastic trunking?

@Brian Taylor are you winding us up because quite frankly unless you have been on another planet I find it difficult to believe you are unaware of Part P and its requirements.

Well maybe not in your side of the job but please have some sense of

Competency is outlined in tha wiring regulations.

Competent electrician may be defined in several ways having minor differences, but essentially if you read the entry qualifications to be a member of the Competent persons scheme for the type of electrical work you do, that is typical of the standard used throughout the industry.

Essentially
Level 3 in installation (your C&G will do).
(Including testing)
Current regulations.
Current building regulations where applicable.
Demonstrate to an inspector that your work meets the current standards.

Etc.

Many councils also define this for acceptance of notifiable work from non-scheme members and for inspection work, for example:


submitted in connection with:
• Housing licensing applications under Parts 2 & 3 of ‘The Housing Act 2004’ (Mandatory
HMO, Additional HMO and Selective licensing)
or in compliance with;
• Regulation 3 (1) of ‘The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented sector (England)
Regulations 2020’ (SI 312:2020)
and
• Regulation 7 (3) of ‘The Licensing and Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation
(Additional Provisions) (England) Regulations 2007’ (SI 1903:2007) – as applicable to
‘Section 257 HMOs’,
has / have been produced by a person both qualified and specifically competent to undertake
inspection and testing of fixed electrical installations.
In line with current government guidance, the Local Housing Authority (LHA) may do this by:
1. checking if the inspector is a member of a relevant competent person scheme, via the
‘Registered Competent Person Electrical’ website:

Home

and / or
2. “requiring the inspector to sign a checklist certifying their competence, including their
experience, whether they have adequate insurance and hold a qualification covering
the current version of the wiring regulations and in the periodic inspection, testing and
certification of electrical installations”.

Wow you must really like bookwork , but from what you have listed I guess I quality as a Competent person, as I do as you correctly state have a C&G certificate and testing certificate, I do have access to a brown regs book, I have just been informed that one of my co workers has a copy of the building regulations that I can borrow and I'm reasonably confident that I can prove competecy. As for the rest I have no idea or interest in it..I'm far to old to be dragged into the petty buerocacy of local authorities.

 

[Julie.]

Well maybe not in your side of the job but please have some sense of

Wow you must really like bookwork , but from what you have listed I guess I quality as a Competent person, as I do as you correctly state have a C&G certificate and testing certificate, I do have access to a brown regs book, I have just been informed that one of my co workers has a copy of the building regulations that I can borrow and I'm reasonably confident that I can prove competecy. As for the rest I have no idea or interest in it..I'm far to old to be dragged into the petty buerocacy of local authorities.

I really suggest that you check yourself against an on-line 18th test.

Having access to a book doesn't prove competence

 

[Brian Taylor]

But it covers much more than that, you said your work is safe, so it must be compliant with the regulations.

If you do think your work is acceptable, just do a search on-line for 18th edition test questions.

You should find places where you can take a simulated exam on line for free, you should be able to skip through in 10-15mins (although you would be more careful and take your time in the real exam).

Now, I don't think you would pass as you by your own admission don't have the latest regs, but even without the latest you should be achieving 60%+

Perhaps that will give you a perspective on where you are/need to be.

We just have your posts and words to judge, so that isn't a real representation on your actual level.

Ah had no idea such question existed...as a matter of interest....is it absolutely required to pay for one of these very expensive regulations update courses or can I simply read the book and do an on line multiple choice paper?

 

[DPG]

Are you going to hold off doing any more notifiable work?

 

[Julie.]

Ah had no idea such question existed...as a matter of interest....is it absolutely required to pay for one of these very expensive regulations update courses or can I simply read the book and do an on line multiple choice paper?

Yes you can do the exam on-line.

You can also just do the exam in a examination facility (usually cheaper) as if you do it at home, someone has to watch you by webcam to ensure you don't cheat.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Are you going to hold off doing any more notifiable work?

Well I guess I'll have to get around that one..
I have in the past got someone else to produce a certificate for me ..

 

[Julie.]

Yes you can do the exam on-line.

You can also just do the exam in a examination facility (usually cheaper) as if you do it at home, someone has to watch you by webcam to ensure you don't cheat.

18th Edition Online Course • Home or Centre Exam • Only £234.00

The online 18th Edition Course, updated to A2. With City & Guilds Final 2382-22 Exam. Exam Times Available Every Week. Best Price Only £234.

mjelectricaltraining.co.uk

Sorry I was misled on this one, I don't think they do exam only having re-read it.

Or

18th Edition Exam Only - City and Guilds 2382 - Lantei Learning

Candidates can choose to undertake a 18th Edition Exam Only (no training), in multiple choice format of 60 questions in 2 hours.

lanteilearning.co.uk

Are but two examples.

Before booking, do a free on-line test to see if just the test is suitable for you.