EICR and unnecessary work?

[bureaucrazy]

I need to get a PIR/EICR done. I am scared that I might be forced to pay for work to meet the 17th edition regs but is not compulsory for older installations else get rated "unsatisfactory". I called up one electrician and he said if there were no rcds I would need a new CU to pass, but from reading forums it seems that it is only C3.

The only major thing I have spotted is that the CU has all MCB's but no RCD. There are circuits for rings, lights, cooker and shower.

The shower MCB could be replaced with an RCBO.

My question is, can the house still pass (albeit with a few C3s) without replacing the CU or fitting all RCBOs?

Or is it the case that any installation not up to 17th edition could be classed as 'unsatisfactory' even if it was in accordance with the regs when it was installed?

Also, some cables may not be installed exactly to the regs e.g. a twist in a cable or not clipped every 30cm, etc. If I have an inspection done, could I be forced into getting the house rewired over minor defects such as this?

Does every accessory need to be checked inside or can just a sample be looked at?

Finally, is the result of the inspection passed on to any authority e.g. building regs or put on a database?

Thanks guys.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Right stop worrying about this and post up your location and i'm sure one of the guys off here will contact and arrange to do a honest EICR for you.

 

[Engineer54]

I take it that this is a rental property that your intending to rent out?? If so don't you think for your own piece of mind, and that of the saftey to your tenants, it would be a good idea to upgrade the CU to one that does have RCD protection??

 

[telectrix]

agree with both above posts. whilst it may no be necessary to fit RCD protection, it's not a bad thing. more importantly is to see the state of the installation, earthing/bonding etc. by having a EICR done. then take it from there.

 

[oldtimer]

First of all sounds like a rental property plus you have a mcb board and far as I am aware you are not obliged to put a RCD version in unless you have done or will do changes also it is not about getting a satisfactory and anyone testing the installation must give reasons why they have failed it ie no main earthing broken dangerous socket etc

 

[cbw]

As mentioned, no need for fuseboard change as complied at time of installation.

If your local to me I will hapily do it for you.

£25.00 per circuit average 3 bed house takes till mid afternoon to complete.

 

[telectrix]

OP's location would help.

 

[Des 56]

Please state the reason for the report
What are your priorities ?

Is it the safety of the persons using the installation ? or perhaps a satisfactory report of an unsatisfactory installation

 

[oldtimer]

OP's location would help.

I think this should be mandatory

 

[Octopus]

Please don't take this the wrong way but a number of your previous posts have been asking about doing work in a house, including a bathroom. Is this the house you are asking about for the EICR?

 

[oldtimer]

Please don't take this the wrong way but a number of your previous posts have been asking about doing work in a house, including a bathroom. Is this the house you are asking about for the EICR?

And if it is then I take it you need the EICR to cover any DIY works ?

 

[Tonkatoy27]

It depends on the age of the installation and which edition of the regs it was installed to. I think it will require RCD protection to the downstairs socket outlets if it was wired to the 16th edition as it was a requirement to provide it for all sockets likely to be used for outdoor portable appliances.

 

[Octopus]

It depends on the age of the installation and which edition of the regs it was installed to. I think it will require RCD protection to the downstairs socket outlets if it was wired to the 16th edition as it was a requirement to provide it for all sockets likely to be used for outdoor portable appliances.

Modifications to circuits in certain locations will also mean installations of RCD's are very likely to be mandatory too.

 

[Farmelectrics]

Why would the ground floor sockets require rcd protection if the install was per 2008

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Why would the ground floor sockets require rcd protection if the install was per 2008

I havn't got a BYB to hand but I was under the impression there was a reg in the 16th edition that stated 'all socket outlets likely to be used for outdoor portable equipment should be protected by 30mA RCD' or words to that effect. The interpretation that was the 'norm' by most sparkies I know was that any socket on the ground floor may be used for the lawnmower extension lead etc. Hence the split load board with sockets on RCD. I have seen the same reg 'complied' with by fitting 1x RCD socket in the garage but that always seemed a bit hit and miss to me. I could never belive that outdoor equipment required RCD protection but not showers...
I may be wrong though, I'd have to check old regs books tomorrow.

 

[Guest55]

I was going to take the trouble of answering all the OP's questions clearly.
Then I realised he hadnt come back to check the replies after 5 hours so i wont lol.

 

[1shortcircuit]

The beauty of replacing the board now is that if/when you need any alterations/additions done to circuits you are already complying by having RCD's fitted. By not having RCD protection if alterations/additions need to be carried out then you will need to protect the said circuit with 30mA protection. This can be easily done individually but how many individual RCD's would you like dotted around the original consumer unit?

PS, Is lack of RCD protection not a C2? :thumbsup

 

[Farmelectrics]

I thought rcd protection pre 2008 was only required for sockets intended for out door use

 

[1shortcircuit]

Here's a comparison for you

I bet the OP has an iphone rather than one of those old bricks with a handset and cord lol

Being eletcrically safe and up to date is obviously Sooooo unfashionable lol

Put your hand in your wallet and update you tight fisted geeeeet lmao



Posted in jest obviously :thumbsup

 

[Octopus]

Round my way a lot of the letting agents won't take on a property unless it has an up to date board fitted. Minimum seems to be RCD on sockets.

 

[i=p/u]

and bathroom

 

[plugsandsparks]

I will be renting out next year and have already decided, no matter what property i rent out, it will have at least a whole house RCD, 240V smoke alarms and a CO alarm.

In my view anything less, then the landlord is not fit to rent out, as this stuff is so cheap compared to a weeks rent.

If i was doing the EICR it would be a C2 for any issue with earthing or RCD protection. Hence un-satisfactory, so best not to call me

 

[bureaucrazy]

Thanks for all your replies even if one or two assumptions have been made. I sometimes post on this forum before I hire anyone if I am unsure about anything as it is far better to know a little of what i'm talking about beforehand as I have ended up with sub standard and superfluous work done in the past when I didn't know the score.

Imagine if you took your car for an MOT and the garage refused to pass it unless you had ABS and airbags fitted. Yes your car would be much safer but the garage has no right to bully you into paying for such improvements if they are not mandatory. If your car meets the MOT standard test you should pass and you can always take the garages advice if you want better safety features.

In fact I suggested the use of RCBOs in my original post as an economical way to improve safety even if it were not mandatory.

So here it seems that some of you would rate the lack of RCD protection as C3 and others C2 so is there a definitive official answer or is it simply down to the competent person to justify? I do not know the exact age of the installation but will check for labels. It is probably 12 to 15 years old.

Thanks again.

 

[spark 68]

The least demanding code it can be given is a C3, if it is not likely that any sockets will be powering outdoor equipment.
If it is likely to be used for outdoor equipment, then a C2 is to be issued.

Have a look at this :

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

and this:

Guidance for Landlords : Electrical Safety Council

As others have said though, there is good reason to fit RCD's, not least of which for safety reasons, but could be for insurance purposes, or LA licencing reasons.

Apologies if you have already looked at these.

 

[Des 56]

I did ask but perhaps the question has been missed
What is the purpose of the report ?

 

[oldtimer]

Round my way a lot of the letting agents won't take on a property unless it has an up to date board fitted. Minimum seems to be RCD on sockets.

Thats a brave thing to do in these current economical times the one I do work for have been doing it for years but tackle it on a if required and peace meal basis

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Strima]

Thats a brave thing to do in these current economical times the one I do work for have been doing it for years but tackle it on a if required and peace meal basis

- - - Updated - - -

I've seen some letting agents state a minimum number of sockets per room, can run into thousands on some properties just to earn a couple of hundred quid each month.

 

[mheyes]

The whole point of an EICR is to determine if an electrical installation is safe for continued operation by the end user. It must be tested by a by a skilled and competent person. Bight the bullet and have it tested by a local spark.
You don’t have to fix everything over night.

 

[drew35]

More info needed really, like is there any supplementary bonding in the kitchen and bathroom as this will affect the need for an RCD. Just get the report done by somebody registered and not a cowboy, then you can discuss all of their findings. You can also check them on the Safety Councils guide to EICR codes.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Suggest the Op author goes on www.esc.org.uk - have a look around.
An RCD even just a simple stand alone one can trip before an electrical fire gets a grip, i.e. at the over heating stage prior to full blown flames. An MCB will happily feed a fire until everything melts before tripping.
They are a no brainer and cost less than three gallons of fuel.

Car analogy does not work as the driver has the biggest influence over safety anyway, there is no driver in house electrics. When you are tucked up in bed, nasty gremlins come out and appliances, sometimes mass produced for pennies, let go.

Last one i read about was plug in fragrance devices, how harmless can they look, but sadly the worst happened and it burnt a house down.

Anyway as for C2 and C3, if i do a EICR on a dwelling - if there is no RCD anywhere, i use my knowledge and experience to justify a C2 on the basis of the massive benefit over cost they provide. In my view the lack of backward regulation for this is a cop out. In 2012 there is absolutely no need for people to live in houses with no RCD protection

 

[Strima]

Last one i read about was plug in fragrance devices, how harmless can they look, but sadly the worst happened and it burnt a house down.

There was a big thing about these in military accommodation a while back. All's dandy until they run out and are left on, they then overheat and start fires.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Just think the electrical industy is just fuddled over RCDs. Prior to 16th, most houses had one tele, bed-side light, immersion heater, hoover ect you get the picture. Look in a typical house today and its full of phone chargers, games consoles, AV stuff, teles in every room, wireless doorbells and yes even frangrance devices. Its a totally different landscape now, the total number of devices is an order of magnitude greater now.
Its OK making loads of them DI but that doesn't stop them failing sometimes spectaculaly.

 

[the pict]

As a addition point, I have an annexe to my house which I let out during the holidays, when I went to insure it they wanted the original cert, not a issue in my case, but as I enquired further the chappie went onto say that the insurance industry as a whole are soon to be going down the road of inspection reports on everything gas, water & electrics as part of the survey for purchases, renewals, and prior to insurance for rentals of all descriptions. this in part has came about due to the increased ammount of bogus claims on household insurance,
Pict

 

[reefagrim]

Ok i am ammused lol its a rental property and as such will fall under the local authorities mandate and as such it will be a requirment that the property is safe for the habitat of the dweller. If you have a test and inspection report done ( condition ) it will highlight any areas that would be a issue some may be non reghulation but there may be other which require improvement or replacing. In my expericenc landlords do not like to pay out on a property why ?? not all tenants are mindless thugs hell bent on destroying the house. BUt you have overlooked a very important aspect which is the insurance company who are very good at getting out of paying . most of these insurance companies do not say but will say when its required that they require a installation of a rcd to have been fitted and checked and you cannot get away from that. the recommendations made in the regs state when you should have a test carried out and how often and the law love to throw the book at bad or ignorant landlord the landlord association has a host of information of the electrical requirements pre letting and i would advice looking there and expect to pay for what is required
the way you have stated in the original post is you suspect that all electricians are out to fleece people

 

[somersetsparks]

I will be renting out next year and have already decided, no matter what property i rent out, it will have at least a whole house RCD, 240V smoke alarms and a CO alarm.

In my view anything less, then the landlord is not fit to rent out, as this stuff is so cheap compared to a weeks rent.

If i was doing the EICR it would be a C2 for any issue with earthing or RCD protection. Hence un-satisfactory, so best not to call me

Plug and sparks - In my view, it doesn't really matter what YOU think. The regulations are pretty clearcut, You are only comparing what you find with the regulations as they stand and grading accordingly, You cannot make the regs up as you please, this is what the 'comments' section is for!

 

[spark 68]

Just think the electrical industy is just fuddled over RCDs. Prior to 16th, most houses had one tele, bed-side light, immersion heater, hoover ect you get the picture. Look in a typical house today and its full of phone chargers, games consoles, AV stuff, teles in every room, wireless doorbells and yes even frangrance devices. Its a totally different landscape now, the total number of devices is an order of magnitude greater now.
Its OK making loads of them DI but that doesn't stop them failing sometimes spectaculaly.

I don't see how an RCD will help safety at all with the above mentioned devices, as an RCD will only trip on an imbalance usually L or N to Earth, not between L to N, and most of the above items are class II (no earth), and are likely if/when they go faulty, to be a fault between L to N which an RCD will not detect.

 

[Guest55]

I don't see how an RCD will help safety at all with the above mentioned devices, as an RCD will only trip on an imbalance usually L or N to Earth, not between L to N, and most of the above items are class II (no earth), and are likely if/when they go faulty, to be a fault between L to N which an RCD will not detect.

Dont be so sure , those ambi-pur plug in fresheners are lethal , i've heard they can pull upto 0.0000001Amps.
;-D

 

[plugsandsparks]

Plug and sparks - In my view, it doesn't really matter what YOU think. The regulations are pretty clearcut, You are only comparing what you find with the regulations as they stand and grading accordingly, You cannot make the regs up as you please, this is what the 'comments' section is for!

Realise that but actually, the EICR does put a high degree of faith in the inspector.
Best practice states that it is up to the inspector to determine the approrpiate category. I know BS have tried to make it more steerable with the latest categories but honestly who else is out there trying to make electricity safe.
Happy to be pulled over the coals over it.

 

[plugsandsparks]

I don't see how an RCD will help safety at all with the above mentioned devices, as an RCD will only trip on an imbalance usually L or N to Earth, not between L to N, and most of the above items are class II (no earth), and are likely if/when they go faulty, to be a fault between L to N which an RCD will not detect.

Come on, lets not get ---- about this. OK AV console goes faulty, overheats melts and starts to make a mess of the surrounding area. In which scenario will the power be cut first, with RCD or without. Its not hard to get 30mA to earth somehow.

 

[spark 68]

Come on, lets not get ---- about this. OK AV console goes faulty, overheats melts and starts to make a mess of the surrounding area. In which scenario will the power be cut first, with RCD or without. Its not hard to get 30mA to earth somehow.

But that was the point I was trying to make, you won't get anything to earth on a class II item, the RCD will have no effect whatsoever in the scenario's outlined.

A lot of sparks misunderstand what an RCD can and can't do.

An RCD will only trip on an earth fault/imbalance, they do not provide OCP, that is what I was getting at, they are not a 'magic bullet' that some sparks think they are.