Discuss Fire rated clips - any suggestions? in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Mark Goddard

EF Member
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9
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Nuneaton
Hi. Could anyone advise on the types of fixings / clips they are using to comply with: Wiring systems shall be supported such that they will not be liable to premature collapse in the event of a fire’ (clause 521.10.202). If, for example, there were a couple of runs of twin and earth above an escape route then what method of fixings would now be suitable. Thanks
 

wirepuller

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5,528
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south uk
Metal cleats/P clips/ steel saddles. For example PVC conduit should now be secured with steel saddles. Various proprietary clips are now available from wholesalers to fix inside plastic trunking and secure cables within.
 

wirepuller

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telectrix

Scouser and Proud.
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should go the whole hog and insist on MICC secured with copper p clips. bugger off this horrible T/E.
 

pirate

Regular EF Member
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1,923
Location
Glasgow
Saren stuff simple and effective, excellent customer service too. I like how they allow a nice neat installation, and you can screw them in, instead of hammering, which is brilliant where the boards you are fixing to are not well supported.
 

Murdoch

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Woking
So has anyone actually confirmed that plasterboard isn’t suitable protection?
 

Strima

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St Neots

Bellendian

Regular EF Member
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199
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Gatwick
The wording of the regs is 'to prevent premature collapse'
Typically vague!
My view is that this reg is only aimed at surface mounted wiring, and that wiring enclosed by other building elements such as plasterboard are not affected by this. Seems to be the way that the amd3 rule for escape routes was applied.
I think it is fair to say that if another building element has to come down before the wiring, then the wiring hasnt collapsed prematurely.
 

Murdoch

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Woking
The wording of the regs is 'to prevent premature collapse'
Typically vague!
My view is that this reg is only aimed at surface mounted wiring, and that wiring enclosed by other building elements such as plasterboard are not affected by this. Seems to be the way that the amd3 rule for escape routes was applied.
I think it is fair to say that if another building element has to come down before the wiring, then the wiring hasnt collapsed prematurely.
And cables "slung" above suspended ceilings with little or no clipping....

BUT it would be useful if the BBB actually stated this!
 

wirepuller

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The wording of the regs is 'to prevent premature collapse'
Typically vague!
My view is that this reg is only aimed at surface mounted wiring, and that wiring enclosed by other building elements such as plasterboard are not affected by this. Seems to be the way that the amd3 rule for escape routes was applied.
I think it is fair to say that if another building element has to come down before the wiring, then the wiring hasnt collapsed prematurely.
This came up on my 18th and the tutor incorrectly informed us that cables would need supporting above a plasterboard ceiling. However this notion was shot down in flames (excuse the pun) on this forum and a member, cant remember who, posted a section from some IET guidance that clearly stated a plasterboard ceiling is suitable as a means of preventing premature collapse of a wiring system. However there may of course be other regulations that a load of wiring laying on a ceiling would contravene!
 

darkwood

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I was initially confused about these regs and still am somewhat but as mentioned it applies to all wiring systems that are contained within the shell of the space be it a room or corridor etc that is simple to understand. This will include all direct clip, all containment systems and their fixings.
The question is whether it does or doesn't apply to cabling above plasterboard, given that standard plasterboard would only probably resist for about 15/20 mins then premature failure of your wiring systems is easily predictable, the whole reason why we introduce these fire resistance install methods is to protect those going into a building like the fire brigade are not going to get caught up do to premature failure the fixing systems of the cabling, if the cable is run on a void side of a standard plasterboard ceiling then one needs to be considerate of the cable runs and/or how they are fixed. If you have clipped a run of cable along the side of the joist itself above standard plasterboard then I would suggest a fire rated clip still and longer screws than normally required, this then means the cable will remain as long as the joist is in position which is a damn site longer than if plastic clips were used.
Noted these are my opinions based on info I can gather, I am currently doing a renovation but it has 1hr fireboard throughout so I am more relaxed about this approach but still do consider runs more carefully to get me into the habit.

Edit -
PS I will add that cables drilled through joints are going to survive the duration of the joists survival so can be ignored, its just long cable runs on the side of joists above standard plasterboard I was raising issue with.
 
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davesparks

Forum Mentor
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12,803
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guildford
T&E abov eplasterboard is generally going to be running through holes in joists as well as being clipped along the joists so will generally stay in place if all the clips fail and the plasterboard falls down.
 

Bellendian

Regular EF Member
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199
Location
Gatwick
Out of interest what are folks using for smaller sizes of swa that might be clipped direct above doorways or along corridors?
 

darkwood

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You can get cleats with inbuilt steel band or make one by looking all round band around normal cleat, all round band one it's own doesn't really look professional in my opinion.
 

westward10

In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream.
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And cables "slung" above suspended ceilings with little or no clipping....

BUT it would be useful if the BBB actually stated this!
Suspended ceilings rarely offer any level of fire protection unless they are certified and correctly constructed. Generally they are aesthetic with any fire protection above them in the void.
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
25,126
Location
Woking
Suspended ceilings rarely offer any level of fire protection unless they are certified and correctly constructed. Generally they are aesthetic with any fire protection above them in the void.
I'm well aware of that and the often hideously poor installation methods used above them

Hence my comment!
 

Gavin John Hyde

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netblindpaul

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South Wales
A standard plasterboard ceiling is 30min fire rating (from building regulations), this is considered by the "industry"as an acceptable duration.
This will be the advice that comes out from the "industry" bodies, all of them.
They will also agree and publish that plastic wall plugs are fine.

I don't know why it is taking so long for it to come out though!
 

Richard Burns

Respected Member
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9,732
Location
Cambridgeshire
Since in domestic very few cables will need to be supported beyond existing practice, I thought of using stainless steel strapping, cut a strip to the length required and hole punch for a fixing screw . Cheap and cheerful, just not practical timewise, despite the low cost, for a regularly used solution.
 

darkwood

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A standard plasterboard ceiling is 30min fire rating (from building regulations), this is considered by the "industry"as an acceptable duration.
This will be the advice that comes out from the "industry" bodies, all of them.
They will also agree and publish that plastic wall plugs are fine.

I don't know why it is taking so long for it to come out though!
The duration of standard plasterboard varies dependant on source although I could be persuaded that the regulation does not include cables within the fabric of the building.
The plastic plug fixing is where I disagree and would be interested in your sources for such info.. The BRE have done extensive testing and published their conclusion which is the advice the IET and many other bodies tend to follow, their conclusion for plastic plugs is they are not suitable so I find it strange that this advice will be ignored when it is safety critical.
https://electrical.theiet.org/media/1578/fire-performance-of-cable-supports.pdf
 

mydigitalhome

Regular EF Member
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403
Location
Norfolk
Yes, I would agree where a typical plasterboard ceiling is installed, not required. False tiled suspended ceilings or above stretch ceilings or any cable that is directly fitted to the ceiling would require metal restraints.
I think it is fair to say that if another building element has to come down before the wiring, then the wiring hasnt collapsed prematurely.
sums it up nicely.
 

netblindpaul

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South Wales
The duration of standard plasterboard varies dependant on source although I could be persuaded that the regulation does not include cables within the fabric of the building.
The plastic plug fixing is where I disagree and would be interested in your sources for such info.. The BRE have done extensive testing and published their conclusion which is the advice the IET and many other bodies tend to follow, their conclusion for plastic plugs is they are not suitable so I find it strange that this advice will be ignored when it is safety critical.
https://electrical.theiet.org/media/1578/fire-performance-of-cable-supports.pdf
My sources are from JPEL64, JPEL64 panels, the WRPC, & the IET, the NICEIC, STROMA & NAPIT.
That report has been discussed by the above, as have the results, and BRE have been involved, and the consensus is that cables above a plasterboard ceiling do not require any additional support, as the plasterboard is deemed from Building Regulations to be a 30 minute fire barrier, unless it is incorrectly installed, but, they cannot allow for that, because it opens up a whole new can of worms.
The situation with plastic plugs has also been discussed between those above, and BRE, and it has been deemed that they will comply.
I have been told that there will be a statement on this shortly, it should have been out at the end of last year, but it has not surfaced yet, I don't know why.
 

darkwood

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Fair enough NetBP ... but I fail to see how they can accept plastic plugs as a means of fixing when they have been shown to fail repeatedly under test conditions, I agree and can see the argument with cabling within the structure but fail to see how they can ignore the results of the BRE on this matter given the BRE themselves conclude they are not sufficient, I will be interested in the exact wording of these bodies and if they do indeed fully accept the use to the plastic plugs with regards to the topic in discussion.
 
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Malcolm Broomfield

EF Member
Messages
17
Location
Southampton
Q. Do contractors still have to use metal/fire resistant clips above fire proof plasterboard ceilings?

A.
  1. firstly let's look at new build, houses etc, all new builds have the cables run through the joists and or clipped to the joists before the plasterboard ceiling is erected so fully compliant if metal clips used.
  2. plasterboard gives up to 30 minutes protection from heat it is not Fire Proof.
  3. if you go to Siniat fireboard for example for the walls and install it correctly this gives up to 60 minutes of protection and weighs 31 Kg per sheet it is not fireproof.
  4. GTEC fire board square edge again can give you some protection but the manufacturer states; Fire resistance is determined from the ‘system’ being constructed. For example; a partition, lining or ceiling. When assessing fire resistance the supporting framework needs to be considered, as well as insulation, fixings and tracks etc. Plasterboard cannot be deemed to be rated by itself in all scenarios, regardless of application. all of the above Achieve Part B Building Regulations (Fire)
for openness and transparency, I became an electrician in 1973 and a chartered safety practitioner nearly 15 years ago. In June 2000 I was in a flat following a fire in which I suggested a clip that would fit into trunking to save lives that is now on sale with many more under the firefly cable clips brand. this is not a sales pitch and I will never put any links on here but with the level of experience and qualifications I have within electrical and safety, I would like to post updates to questions answered as above. If admin deems this to not be allowed then I will back off and just answer directly to the questioner?
 

mattg4321

Electrician's Arms
Messages
694
Location
South East
Hi Malcolm. Your answer runs to many sentences but doesn't appear to actually give an answer!

With respect, it does seem your opinion will be biased, as you have very honestly admitted to not being impartial.
 
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