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The harsh reality is... that we can all moan about this all day long... but nothing will change. The only way the quality of EICRs will improve is if we start to have some prosecutions.

You only have to look at the total inaction against recent shenanigans with criminal damage to statues, or rioters in Brixton etc. to realise that any formal action against poor quality EICRs is never gonna happen.
 
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Baddegg

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Arms
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Esteemed
All any one with any conscience can do is carry on doing them properly to the best of ya abilities....and if you lose trade to the drive by cowboys let em have it! 😁
 

hasel5

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Arms
Just started to be contacted to do a few by local estate agents when I say £300 you can hear them fall over but Hey ho there prob not mine.
 
The sad bit about all of this is that's it's not the company who will suffer, But the poor bugger who is daft enough to put his/her signature on the paperwork as the responsible person !!! You are the one that they will come hunting for if disaster strikes.
 

Baddegg

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One I had last year was a small Chinese takeaway.....the amount of faults I picked up was ridiculous.....he paid me anyways for the report and then just went with another spark who basically found nothing wrong......cheaper than getting me to repair all faults.....crazy times man 😂
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
When I have the time I am going to contact the APS (Association of Project Safety) to see if they can do something under the CDM Regs.
 

pc1966

Arms
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People running and screaming just about edges me to C3.....ish
Yes, but only if it is someone you know...
 
I've just had some annual Gas Safety Certificates done... £65 each... and he's in and out within an hour. Single page cerificate. That's gotta be a better business to be in than doing EICRs ?
 

UNG

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Mentor
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I've just had some annual Gas Safety Certificates done... £65 each... and he's in and out within an hour. Single page cerificate. That's gotta be a better business to be in than doing EICRs ?
There's cowboys in the Gassafe scheme, my nephew recently bought a house that looked good on the surface to him and his girlfriend but from the estate agents pictures I worked out it needed a rewire. So after completion me and a mate of mine rock up to start the rewire after a bad start due to the number of other problems we find they decide to gut the kitchen, they wanted some of the pipework from the upstairs radiators to the boiler and the hot and cold water pipes moving so we got roped into that only to find that the plumber who fitted the combi boiler had plumbed the hot and cold to the boiler the wrong way round my mate suggested doing a drop test on the gas and yes the plumber had manged to sign off a gas tightness test and not notice that the fire in the lounge was faulty
Going back a few years my M-I-L had a gas fire serviced after the first visit my S-I-L smelt gas when she called round, after 2 more visits to fix it and still getting a smell of gas finaly the fourth guy fixed it properly after identifying there was an o ring missing so four different gassafe engineers and only one found the problem and the first one left site having created the leak
Gassafe for me is another one of those organisations that does not have a lot of credibility
 

Baddegg

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I bought a house a few years back now, corgi scheme then, new boiler fitted and an old gas pipe under the floor had been termites by folding it back a few times!
 
I've just had some annual Gas Safety Certificates done... £65 each... and he's in and out within an hour. Single page cerificate. That's gotta be a better business to be in than doing EICRs ?
65£ you got ripped off

my local plumber is offering currently offering them for 25£ a pop

and a boiler service for 40£
 
I worked for a small company who worked for a Housing Association, i was told to do 3 a day, I just got 1 a day test and repairs.
Sad to say I left and that company has gone bust
 

Mike Johnson

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Have any of you been in touch with your scheme provider to ask for guidance on how long an EICR should take?
 

davesparks

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I've just had some annual Gas Safety Certificates done... £65 each... and he's in and out within an hour. Single page cerificate. That's gotta be a better business to be in than doing EICRs ?
Have any of you been in touch with your scheme provider to ask for guidance on how long an EICR should take?
Why would anyone do that? It's none of their business how long an EICR takes, their concern is only, supposedly, the quality of the EICR.
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
Any scheme provider has a duty of care for any documents provided in their name, therefor they should provide guidance for the preparation of said documents and the time period necessary to carry out that preparation in a correct/meaningful manner, each one of you should be badgering your scheme provider for that information, and if any of you are members of unite, badger them as well, that's if you really do want something done about the five a day brigade.
 
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davesparks

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Any scheme provider has a duty of care for any documents provided in their name, therefor they should provide guidance for the preparation of said documents and the time period necessary to carry out that preparation in a correct/meaningful manner, each one of you should be badgering your scheme provider for that information, and if any of you are members of unite, badger them as well, that's if you really do want something done about the five a day brigade.
How are they supposed to provide guidance for the time necessary for preparing the documents?
They'd have to try to establish the time it takes for each possible size/type of installation, plus then for each software package plus hand writing certificates.
Add to this the fact that there is not a fixed format for the report, there is a model form in BS7671 but that is only a model and many of us use our own forms based on it.

Also the documents aren't provided in their names, the document is in the name of the person competing the report, the schemes allow their members to print their logos on the reports.
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
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Interesting view point, but not really providing a solution to the problem of the five a day brigade, you should be looking for ways to get the EICR filled out and completed in a workmanlike manner, not finding excuses for them not to do anything about it, lots of other professions have done exactly that.

It's not the time to prepare the documents that is at issue, it's the time taken to get the information filled out on those documents.
 

davesparks

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Interesting view point, but not really providing a solution to the problem of the five a day brigade, you should be looking for ways to get the EICR filled out and completed in a workmanlike manner, not finding excuses for them not to do anything about it, lots of other professions have done exactly that.

It's not the time to prepare the documents that is at issue, it's the time taken to get the information filled out on those documents.
It is not the time taken to get information,fill out documents or anything that is at issue.

The issue is a lack of understanding of what is required and the consequences, it is an issue of putting money before safeguarding human lives.

Any attempt to standardise or fix the amount of time an EICR takes will not solve the problem, it may allow more of them to be completed properly but it will also prevent some being competed properly as they would take longer than the standardised time.
 
There is no solution to the "5-a-day brigade" as there is nobody policing the quality of EICRs nor are there harsh penalties for improper completion. Added to that, is the fact that they are largely subjective and rely on the 'opinion' of the tester and/or his interest, diligence or observational skills.

We need 12 month bans for improper issuance of EICRs... and re-training before you're allowed back to them !
 

davesparks

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There is no solution to the "5-a-day brigade" as there is nobody policing the quality of EICRs nor are there harsh penalties for improper completion. Added to that, is the fact that they are largely subjective and rely on the 'opinion' of the tester and/or his interest, diligence or observational skills.

We need 12 month bans for improper issuance of EICRs... and re-training before you're allowed back to them !
Yes there is an element of opinion, but not as much as you make it seem. The vast majority of faults are pretty easy to code consistently as long as the people doing the report fully understand the requirements.

Bans and retraining won't work, there are plenty of training providers giving out incorrect information, and the companies who craeate these '5 a day' jobs will continue regardless.
 

UNG

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Mentor
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I can't understand why doing EICR's is heading in the same direction as appliance testing with a "how many can you do in a day" competition to some guy's although some of the employers are equally as bad forcing employees to hit the 3, 4 or more EICR's a day targets or face being fired
Do the guys bragging about the numbers they can do in a day take a chance on not missing something dangerous when they put their signature on the report or if it's a 17th+ edition CU with RCD's on everything does it significantly reduce the risk for them of someone dying or being seriously injured and therefore not having an appearance in court with the possibility of a room in one of Her Majesties hotels for a time

I always remember one of the first or possibly the first PIR's I did after finishing my apprenticeship it was on a house that had been extended and the builder needed an electrical cert for the council as it was a grant job, when I got there the women who answered the door was in the advanced stages of pregnancy and a bit stressed, after an hour of testing and checking the installation everything looked good then it started going downhill rapidly when I opened up a 2 way light switch in the garage that was going to be the last accessory that I checked and found the T&E had the earth used as one of the strappers after that the extension became a 100% inspection with a number of other non compliances found and a clearly unsatisfactory report. When I got back to the office my boss asked why the PIR had taken twice as long as it normally took as it had taken nearly 3 hours so I told him all the problems I had found and he agreed I was right with what I did.
The following morning I was in the office getting my job sheets for the day and the phone rang the boss answered and it was the irate husband from the house I was at the previous day wanting my details as he wanted me in court as his nearly 8 months pregnant wife had been admitted to hospital with a suspected miscarriage and it was my fault and he also wanted another electrician to go out and give them a satisfactory report as the builder had assured him there was nothing wrong with his electrical work my boss told him in no uncertain terms that it was not going to happen and he backed his electricians opinion and sending another one out would result in the same findings unless the builder rectified the faults, I and my boss never heard anymore about it, but I took it as a lesson learned there could have been a different outcome had the woman or one of her family had an electric shock or died from a shock, so 40 years on an EICR takes as long as it takes to make sure my backside is covered
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
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It most definitely is a time taken issue otherwise the five a day brigade would be carrying out ten a day, the forcing of short time constraints on an employee or contractor is punishable under the CDM Regulations for construction work, don't make excuses for them do something about it.
 

ChrisElectrical88

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I wonder how much the company charges each test for him doing 5 a day. He’s literally running round a blue arse fly, for likely with big company’s about £12.50 a hour, why they are laughing at him ranking in £120+ a test
 

UNG

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Mentor
Arms
Any scheme provider has a duty of care for any documents provided in their name, therefor they should provide guidance for the preparation of said documents and the time period necessary to carry out that preparation in a correct/meaningful manner, each one of you should be badgering your scheme provider for that information, and if any of you are members of unite, badger them as well, that's if you really do want something done about the five a day brigade.
The City & Guilds are just as bad as the schemes by allowing the get trained quick providers to devalue it's qualifications. The 2391 was meant to be an extension to and underpinned by a core qualification that was a requirement of entry to the course and exam yet every man and his dog can get the 2391 without meeting the course entry requirements if you pay the money to these quick training providers, yet the 2391 is still used as a measure of competence when it comes to inspect and test above any other qualification that may or may not be held by the operative looking for scheme assessment / membership or doing an ECIR.
Even the recent rental landlords EICR legislation is very woolly when it comes to the qualification and experience needed to carry out an EICR

Who actually has a duty of care opens up an interesting conversation as to where the duty of care is ultimately placed as everyone involved from the landlord / housing association, letting agent, certification companies and even the tennant all have a duty of care to each other you could also throw the schemes, training providers and qualification bodies into the mix
One thing is clear that cost is a major influence to many landlords / letting agents in meeting their duty of care requirements unfortunately the cheap EICR companies don't seem to discharge their responsibilities to those ordering the EICR's with the due diligence needed to protect the landlord interests
How the quality of ECIR's can be policed is a difficult one as the CP schemes have clearly lost their focus since the introduction of Part P in favour of improving their balance sheet,
Whether a combination of the local housing authority requiring rental EICR's to be notified and individual rather company registration for carrying out EICR's would help is another debate.
May be it needs a system similar to MOT testers only being able to carry out 1 MOT every 45 minutes is needed, you would log on tell the system the number of circuits and it would adjust the timings as to how long it would be before you could log on for the next EICR throw in some spot checks by location checking if you are not on site for the duration of the ECIR then what are you doing or cross checking with the landlord, letting agent or tenant

It's unfortunate that somebody needs to die or be seriously injured before there is any action Part P was supposed to improve the industry but before it's true effects could be analysed the 17th edition introduced RCD's on everything couple that with the quick training courses that appeared and the only point of reference we have is the number of CU's that suffer spontaneous combustion in the LFB area
Would anybody like to hazard a guess as to how many non compliant supposedly compliant installations there are out there with a a valid EICR because at 4 or 5 a day there must be a good number of problems slipping through the net
Post automatically merged:

Do you even actually need to be in a scheme to carry out eicrs?......
No, but why does being in a scheme give any credibility to EICR's carried out by a 5 a day EICR operative
 

GBDamo

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Supporter
It's the prevalence of RCD protection that has allowed these chancers to get away with this.

It is highly, highly unlikely that someone will suffer a serious shock with an RCD present and functioning.

So, if the RCD isn't tripping and there are no visual concerns at the board/cutout, it's just a case of filling out the forms.

However, and this is the thing for, the schemes aren't questioning this.

Who here could even interrogate a system* and complete the paperwork in under an hour, factor in travel and there is no way any testing or inspection is being carried out.

I can't even believe the CU cover comes off.

*supply type, earthing system, bonding, circuit CSAs,
 

Baddegg

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Arms
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Esteemed
The City & Guilds are just as bad as the schemes by allowing the get trained quick providers to devalue it's qualifications. The 2391 was meant to be an extension to and underpinned by a core qualification that was a requirement of entry to the course and exam yet every man and his dog can get the 2391 without meeting the course entry requirements if you pay the money to these quick training providers, yet the 2391 is still used as a measure of competence when it comes to inspect and test above any other qualification that may or may not be held by the operative looking for scheme assessment / membership or doing an ECIR.
Even the recent rental landlords EICR legislation is very woolly when it comes to the qualification and experience needed to carry out an EICR

Who actually has a duty of care opens up an interesting conversation as to where the duty of care is ultimately placed as everyone involved from the landlord / housing association, letting agent, certification companies and even the tennant all have a duty of care to each other you could also throw the schemes, training providers and qualification bodies into the mix
One thing is clear that cost is a major influence to many landlords / letting agents in meeting their duty of care requirements unfortunately the cheap EICR companies don't seem to discharge their responsibilities to those ordering the EICR's with the due diligence needed to protect the landlord interests
How the quality of ECIR's can be policed is a difficult one as the CP schemes have clearly lost their focus since the introduction of Part P in favour of improving their balance sheet,
Whether a combination of the local housing authority requiring rental EICR's to be notified and individual rather company registration for carrying out EICR's would help is another debate.
May be it needs a system similar to MOT testers only being able to carry out 1 MOT every 45 minutes is needed, you would log on tell the system the number of circuits and it would adjust the timings as to how long it would be before you could log on for the next EICR throw in some spot checks by location checking if you are not on site for the duration of the ECIR then what are you doing or cross checking with the landlord, letting agent or tenant

It's unfortunate that somebody needs to die or be seriously injured before there is any action Part P was supposed to improve the industry but before it's true effects could be analysed the 17th edition introduced RCD's on everything couple that with the quick training courses that appeared and the only point of reference we have is the number of CU's that suffer spontaneous combustion in the LFB area
Would anybody like to hazard a guess as to how many non compliant supposedly compliant installations there are out there with a a valid EICR because at 4 or 5 a day there must be a good number of problems slipping through the net
Post automatically merged:


No, but why does being in a scheme give any credibility to EICR's carried out by a 5 a day EICR operative
not saying it does mate, I was suggesting to mike that it’s not really a scheme issue
 

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