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pirate

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Arms
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This is a very interesting thread. My tuppence worth is simply that no matter what industry or profession is involved, the problem is simply the setting of "targets".
Worry over losing your job means "targets" can change the way someone does their job.
The banking and insurance business are other prime examples of targets making people do things they wouldn't normally do, or omit things they know they ought to do.
Targets are evil. I won't bore you with examples, but much misery has been caused by them, and greed and the imposition of targets caused the crash of 2008, and the scandal of mis-sold endowment policies is further clear evidence. Those scandals were bad enough, with financial ruin for many...in your profession as electricians death is a possible consequence...
Targets are evil.
 

7029 dave

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Mentor
Arms
This is a very interesting thread. My tuppence worth is simply that no matter what industry or profession is involved, the problem is simply the setting of "targets".
Worry over losing your job means "targets" can change the way someone does their job.
The banking and insurance business are other prime examples of targets making people do things they wouldn't normally do, or omit things they know they ought to do.
Targets are evil. I won't bore you with examples, but much misery has been caused by them, and greed and the imposition of targets caused the crash of 2008, and the scandal of mis-sold endowment policies is further clear evidence. Those scandals were bad enough, with financial ruin for many...in your profession as electricians death is a possible consequence...
Targets are evil.
All company's are obsessed with targets, its the bain of everyday working lives for all, quality suffers, morale.
IMO you cant have quality and quantity the two just dont mix.
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
Of course companies are obsessed with targets, they try to set them at a realistic level, usually in consultation with the Union or workforce representative, companies need to know they are getting value for money, in days gone by I can remember a neighbour who talked extensively about how long he spent playing cards behind some packing case's, the company he worked for was a large multinational called AEG who no longer exist, I wonder why, if targets had existed then the company would have been making money instead of throwing it away on lazy employees.
 

7029 dave

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Mentor
Arms
Of course companies are obsessed with targets, they try to set them at a realistic level, usually in consultation with the Union or workforce representative, companies need to know they are getting value for money, in days gone by I can remember a neighbour who talked extensively about how long he spent playing cards behind some packing case's, the company he worked for was a large multinational called AEG who no longer exist, I wonder why, if targets had existed then the company would have been making money instead of throwing it away on lazy employees.
I was just waiting for an answer like yours. lol
Anyway the point is about this very debate, achievable targets loads of comments about how 5 EICR's are not possible, my point is if they were met then it would not be 5 it would be 10, you must understand about the concept of targets, its about greed, not the very small percent about lazy oiks.
 

Baddegg

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Arms
Supporter
Esteemed
Of course companies are obsessed with targets, they try to set them at a realistic level, usually in consultation with the Union or workforce representative, companies need to know they are getting value for money, in days gone by I can remember a neighbour who talked extensively about how long he spent playing cards behind some packing case's, the company he worked for was a large multinational called AEG who no longer exist, I wonder why, if targets had existed then the company would have been making money instead of throwing it away on lazy employees.
I was a stevedore for many years and spent many happy years playing cards on ships 😂.....the company introduced a target system which resulted in damage and injuries as people took short cuts to meet the targets to get a bonus of get home earlier, once the company had sorted these issues and got productivity to a point they were happy with they removed the targets and rewards associated and constantly pushed for more in the hope that productivity would remain.....they didn’t.....
 

7029 dave

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Mentor
Arms
I was just waiting for an answer like yours. lol
Anyway the point is about this very debate, achievable targets loads of comments about how 5 EICR's are not possible, my point is if they were met then it would not be 5 it would be 10, you must understand about the concept of targets, its about greed, not the very small percent about lazy oiks.
Quality too, I have seen it happen with my own eyes.
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
Its not a very small percentage of lazy oiks that send a successful company bankrupt or targets that cause accidents or damage it's the workforce trying to earn more money because of the way the unions had negotiated the targets and bonus system, don't get me wrong all of these systems and targets where a necessary evil in their day when the unions had the power to hold companies to ransom, perhaps I am a bit older than most on here and remember the unions holding the country to ransom on occasions, the piles of rotting waste along every street was not very nice especially with the power cuts at the same time, then the petrol shortage cause by pickets at the gates of depots etc......................

As a comment try telling Toyota that quality and quantity don't mix, or come to that any Japanese car manufacturer.
 

UNG

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Mentor
Arms
Of course companies are obsessed with targets, they try to set them at a realistic level, usually in consultation with the Union or workforce representative, companies need to know they are getting value for money, in days gone by I can remember a neighbour who talked extensively about how long he spent playing cards behind some packing case's, the company he worked for was a large multinational called AEG who no longer exist, I wonder why, if targets had existed then the company would have been making money instead of throwing it away on lazy employees.
AEG no longer exist because the company was bought up and it's operations integrated into other companies, it's something happens a lot you might have missed it while you were playing cards
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
Successful companies do not get bought out, they go into receivership when they are no longer viable, AEG's assets where bought by Electrolux from the receiver.
 

UNG

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Mentor
Arms
Successful companies do not get bought out, they go into receivership when they are no longer viable, AEG's assets where bought by Electrolux from the receiver.
Successful companies do get bought out usually by a hostile takeover
So Daimler-Benz took over AEG in 1985 and Electrolux acquired the AEG household division in 1994 but only obtained the rights to use the brand name in 2005. When did Daimler-Benz go into receivership then?
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
No idea, I am not trying to start an argument, it was just an opinion on the EICR results and how many should be done in a day, seems we have got way off track.
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
I have already said previously that when I did this it took me about two days for a three bedroom house with full inspection and documentation, but then I worked at my own speed with no one looking over my shoulder.
 
The City & Guilds are just as bad as the schemes by allowing the get trained quick providers to devalue it's qualifications. The 2391 was meant to be an extension to and underpinned by a core qualification that was a requirement of entry to the course and exam yet every man and his dog can get the 2391 without meeting the course entry requirements if you pay the money to these quick training providers, yet the 2391 is still used as a measure of competence when it comes to inspect and test above any other qualification that may or may not be held by the operative looking for scheme assessment / membership or doing an ECIR.
I don't see why that would make C&G bad. The adult training providers provide the exact same training an apprentice gets but in a condensed time frame. It's literally exactly the same - if you can do what an apprentice can do after 3 years you pass, if not, you don't.

The real problem is the lack of on-site experience and tutelage under an already-qualified spark.

But that's not the training providers fault. Anyone wanting to get into the industry has no chance after age 21 without these providers.

If anything i would have thought someone paying out almost ten grand to retrain would be more dedicated than your average 'stand on my phone all day fanying about' 16 year old.

I think it should be changed to make the quals line up with electricians mate work. Do the C&G and then it's a mandatory 2 years as a mate whilst doing the NVQ before you can work alone. That would seem more reasonable to me.

But the C&G is 90% theory and so you either know it or you don't. There's no reason it cannot be condensed from the 1 day a week over 2 years into a 16 week full-time course.
 

pc1966

Arms
Esteemed
The real problem is the lack of on-site experience and tutelage under an already-qualified spark.

But that's not the training providers fault. Anyone wanting to get into the industry has no chance after age 21 without these providers.
Yes, the (lack of) experience of putting theory in to practice is the issue.

But the training providers are selling these course to the trainees and industry as a solution to getting skilled staff quickly.

What is needed is more support for apprenticeship-like schemes for all ages, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that :(
 
Yes, the (lack of) experience of putting theory in to practice is the issue.

But the training providers are selling these course to the trainees and industry as a solution to getting skilled staff quickly.

What is needed is more support for apprenticeship-like schemes for all ages, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that :(
It's not a sale for getting skilled staff quickly - even after the course you still have to pass the NVQ and AM2 which means you have to be working and providing evidence that you can do the job etc and the quickest i've ever heard of anyone doing it was about 6 weeks but he'd already been working in the game for several years before doing proper training.

They say allow at least 6-18 months depending on the speed of your uptake of information etc.

I mean i guess you can go sign up to a scam and do it that way without the NVQ but you can do that with essentially no training at all.

I'm retraining at the minute after years out of the game and i intend on only looking for work as a mate for at least a year after i've passed my C&G/Inspection and Testing/18th ed.

I should have a headstart on a lot of other people since i can essentially build a house from scratch already but it's nice to know i'm at the level of a freshly qualified spark before tackling work on my own. I just don't see how someone can do a course and then just be off out into the wide world alone unless they are doing very basic work.
 
You need to realise that everyone is different. I know that flies in the face of the modern world view that we are all homogenous... but we're not. So someone that's been through the whole apprenticeship/NVQ/AM2 route might not be as 'good' as someone that's been on short courses and self-trained.

Personally, I don't trust anyones 'qualifications' (regardless of subject/vocation). I've known too many people over the years with all the right things on paper but are totally useless !

There's far too much OCS (official certificate syndrome) going on these days for my liking...
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
When I was working on the Tower Hotel, the fitter on site welded a Phosphor Bonze bracket with standard welding gear, I told him that's not possible, well one geotechnical Xray proved me wrong and him right, according to science I should have been to one that was correct, the old boy that carried out the welding had no qualifications just years of experience.
 
You need to realise that everyone is different. I know that flies in the face of the modern world view that we are all homogenous... but we're not. So someone that's been through the whole apprenticeship/NVQ/AM2 route might not be as 'good' as someone that's been on short courses and self-trained.

Personally, I don't trust anyones 'qualifications' (regardless of subject/vocation). I've known too many people over the years with all the right things on paper but are totally useless !

There's far too much OCS (official certificate syndrome) going on these days for my liking...
Here here. 👌
 

UNG

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Mentor
Arms
I don't see why that would make C&G bad. The adult training providers provide the exact same training an apprentice gets but in a condensed time frame. It's literally exactly the same - if you can do what an apprentice can do after 3 years you pass, if not, you don't.
The C&G set entry requirements for all their courses yet all these quick training companies seem to circumvent them. How can you do a 2391 course with no core electrical qualifications or experience
Not sure how you get to the conclusion that the adult training providers provide the exact same training a 3 year day release course has about 1026 hours theory study + the onsite experience 4 days a week while attending college a 16 week course only gives you about 560 hours theory study with no site experience to underpin the theory the day release course doesn't include the 2391 but the 16 week course does

The real problem is the lack of on-site experience and tutelage under an already-qualified spark.
The real problem is getting a broad range of site experience so you don't get pigeon holed into just one industry sector

But that's not the training providers fault. Anyone wanting to get into the industry has no chance after age 21 without these providers.

If anything i would have thought someone paying out almost ten grand to retrain would be more dedicated than your average 'stand on my phone all day fanying about' 16 year old.
Getting into the industry after 19 - 21 has always been difficult when I started if you were over 18 you had no chance as the apprenticeship funding was based on age. In the late 70's and early 80's there were the government skill centres that offered 6 months training to get a trade

I think it should be changed to make the quals line up with electricians mate work. Do the C&G and then it's a mandatory 2 years as a mate whilst doing the NVQ before you can work alone. That would seem more reasonable to me.
So how many years would it take to get qualified, people don't want to wait now

But the C&G is 90% theory and so you either know it or you don't. There's no reason it cannot be condensed from the 1 day a week over 2 years into a 16 week full-time course.
Not sure how you get the C&G as 90% theory when a lot of the under pinning knowledge comes from onsite experience, in recent years there has been more exam coaching using past exam papers than actual real world teaching which in my opinion has devalued the C&G qualifications
As I have previously said the difference in study hours does not equate to a 16 week course you cannot deliver the same training in less hours and on a like for like basis including the 2391 in a 16 week course makes it even more light on hours for the basics especially when you are also including the exams
 

happyhippydad

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Arms
Esteemed
In response to the original question I generally only do one EICR in a day (£175), but I could easily do 2 if I wanted to (on average). They take 4 hours on average, home for lunch, 1-2 hours writing it up and including a fairly in depth quote for remedials.

So, in answer to the OP. 1, very occasionally 2.
 

Mike Johnson

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Arms
Esteemed
Out of interest how long would it take you guys to carry out an EICR on this board? No FRC all radials, with lets say on average 10 sockets per MCB on those that have the socket symbol, lighting MCB's have an electronic latching relay for multiple switching. Should have said, three phase board split into mono phase for the circuits, one three phase supply to the barn/garage.

DSC00487.jpegDSC00487.jpeg
 
The C&G set entry requirements for all their courses yet all these quick training companies seem to circumvent them. How can you do a 2391 course with no core electrical qualifications or experience
Not sure how you get to the conclusion that the adult training providers provide the exact same training a 3 year day release course has about 1026 hours theory study + the onsite experience 4 days a week while attending college a 16 week course only gives you about 560 hours theory study with no site experience to underpin the theory the day release course doesn't include the 2391 but the 16 week course does


The real problem is getting a broad range of site experience so you don't get pigeon holed into just one industry sector


Getting into the industry after 19 - 21 has always been difficult when I started if you were over 18 you had no chance as the apprenticeship funding was based on age. In the late 70's and early 80's there were the government skill centres that offered 6 months training to get a trade


So how many years would it take to get qualified, people don't want to wait now


Not sure how you get the C&G as 90% theory when a lot of the under pinning knowledge comes from onsite experience, in recent years there has been more exam coaching using past exam papers than actual real world teaching which in my opinion has devalued the C&G qualifications
As I have previously said the difference in study hours does not equate to a 16 week course you cannot deliver the same training in less hours and on a like for like basis including the 2391 in a 16 week course makes it even more light on hours for the basics especially when you are also including the exams
Maybe get a 2365 C&G book and read through it. It's really not the rocket science you seem to think it is - the vast majority of it is literally theory and nothing to do with even installing.

You either know how to do something or you don't. If you don't, you don't pass. If you do, you pass. If you can follow regs and know how to install and test to standards then there's no reason you are any less qualified than a recently qualified apprentice. I did an apprenticeship in welding and the first two years was college plus navvying on site doing grinding, stuffing box with insulation, sanding up, sweeping, making tea, being made to do all the ---- jobs and no actual welding. Regular apprentices finish their apprenticeships green as grass.

These courses leave you no different. It's the experience that's missing in both cases and you can only get the experience one way. I just think it's better to get some experience working alongside someone else before you tackle big jobs alone, but lets not make out that putting in rings, radials and showers are some sort of privileged job - the basics are very easy to get down safely and quickly. It's the experience in dealing with real world problems which is missing but you'll figure that as you come across it.

People will disagree and that's fine. I know people who served time are protective of their jobs and whatever but there are tonnes of time served sparks out there doing horrendous work so i'm not sure i can agree on the point with the courses. People are either conscientious or not and they either know how to do it properly or they don't. These courses ensure you do. What you then do with it is what will set you apart. Do you keep learning or do you think you suddenly know it all because you have paperwork?

I will get my c&g and then i will work with a spark as a semi-qualified electrical 'apprentice' of sorts to get my NVQ alongside real world experience as i think it's the best way to do it for an adult learner.
 
How can you do a 2391 course with no core electrical qualifications or experience
Judging by the standard of the 2391 course... quite easily !
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Not sure how you get to the conclusion that the adult training providers provide the exact same training a 3 year day release course has about 1026 hours theory study + the onsite experience 4 days a week while attending college a 16 week course only gives you about 560 hours theory study with no site experience to underpin the theory the day release course doesn't include the 2391 but the 16 week course does
You're not comparing apples with apples... an hour of training for a 16yo apprentice when he's distracted by his phone or still feeling the effects of his 'herbal' hobby or been up all night on the latest video game... is a totally different hour to an 'adult' learner who's paying his own way, well prepared for the days learning, does extra work when he gets home etc. etc.
 
You're not comparing apples with apples... an hour of training for a 16yo apprentice when he's distracted by his phone or still feeling the effects of his 'herbal' hobby or been up all night on the latest video game... is a totally different hour to an 'adult' learner who's paying his own way, well prepared for the days learning, does extra work when he gets home etc. etc.
I'm currently gathering the funds to start with distance learning. My preference was to go to college, but that's not currently possible as no colleges locally offer 2365 to anyone over the age of 24.

I get the objections to people using a short course to set up their stall and start doing work they're in no way prepared for, but it's definitely rather blinkered thinking to assume that everyone wants to take a short cut toward charging top dollar for 2nd rate work. It's going to cost a substantial sum to get through the courses I want to do and it's not something I'll be entering into lightly.

Over the years I've worked with plenty of young folk - not so long ago I was one myself - and work ethics vary greatly from one person to the next. There are apprentices out there who will be a real credit to their trade and there are apprentices who need a kick up the backside or dumped from their course for wasting everyone's time and money. Similarly there will be adults entering the industry with the intention of taking every possible shortcut, while charging the greatest amount possible, but is it really so difficult to comprehend that plenty of others want to qualify in order to get a foothold that will allow them to gain practical experience and want to turn out top notch work using the skills and knowledge they've worked hard and paid handsomely to gain?
 

7029 dave

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Mentor
Arms
Judging by the standard of the 2391 course... quite easily !
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You're not comparing apples with apples... an hour of training for a 16yo apprentice when he's distracted by his phone or still feeling the effects of his 'herbal' hobby or been up all night on the latest video game... is a totally different hour to an 'adult' learner who's paying his own way, well prepared for the days learning, does extra work when he gets home etc. etc.
I find your comment quite offensive, specially when I started in this industry at 15 years old
41 years ago.
You are just trying to stereotype all 16 year old apprentices,I worked dam hard to learn my trade on next to nothing salary, given my mum a few pound a week for keep.
Then getting it back the next to put petrol in my mini to get to work, those times were very difficult will never forget , but glad I stuck it.

Maybe you have a point in 2020, with the youth of today, but then I could say why learn a trade in your 40's, its nobody's fault you missed the boat at 16.
 
I find your comment quite offensive, specially when I started in this industry at 15 years old
41 years ago.
You are just trying to stereotype all 16 year old apprentices,I worked dam hard to learn my trade on next to nothing salary, given my mum a few pound a week for keep.
Then getting it back the next to put petrol in my mini to get to work, those times were very difficult will never forget , but glad I stuck it.

Maybe you have a point in 2020, with the youth of today, but then I could say why learn a trade in your 40's, its nobody's fault you missed the boat at 16.
I started working 30 years ago and found that there were plenty my age who put their heads down and worked hard, but also plenty who weren't interested in anything which they didn't gain immediate gratification from and I reckon the same is true today.

I don't think you should be offended by the comment you quoted any more than I should be offended by people who dismiss condensed training out of hand. There is no "youth of today" any more than there was 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. There are people with a strong work ethic and people who expect everything should be handed to them, along with many shades of grey between those extremes.

What I took from the comment you object to is that, along with very competent electricians who took years to become fully qualified, there are also many electricians who turn out appaling work - the latter are part of the reason I want to retrain. Equally there will be many who want to earn a quick buck from short courses, but also many others who want to use such courses as a means of getting in to the industry and who want to learn this craft in such a way as they can turn out work to a very high standard.

In short, we're all guilty of making assumptions and we're all likely to be proven both right and wrong in doing so.
 

UNG

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Mentor
Arms
Judging by the standard of the 2391 course... quite easily !
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You're not comparing apples with apples... an hour of training for a 16yo apprentice when he's distracted by his phone or still feeling the effects of his 'herbal' hobby or been up all night on the latest video game... is a totally different hour to an 'adult' learner who's paying his own way, well prepared for the days learning, does extra work when he gets home etc. etc.
Not sure who you are or what you are with your hidden profile but one thing I am certain of you have little or no knowledge of this trade judging by your derogatory comment that some on here will find insulting

I started out 10 years before the first cell phone existed if you wanted a recreational diversion it was treated with respect and not taken to work there was not a cat in hell's chance of going on a forum or using Google to get help it was 20+ years away all we had were libraries if we needed to find information and that took hours rather than seconds

Back then college was one day a week from 9am till 8pm for 36 weeks a year, with 2 years study to get your "A" cert with a further year to get your "B" cert if you hadn't had enough by then you could do another 2 years and get your "C" cert and over the 5 years there was also a lot of hours put in at home while your mates where down the pub. If this industry is so easy why did the C&G stop the "C" course and exam in 2007, one of the reasons given was because the exam pass rate had fallen below 30%
Back then the "A" cert was the minimum qualification to become an electrician and unless you got the "B" cert you were treated as a second class spark by your peers which is why many of a certain age will treat the current training with much disdain

Having worked through 4 changes of regs that saw the book double in size from A5 to A4 and add many additional related publications the industry is one that has become more technical with the onset of technology, ok the basic domestic installation has not changed that much in the last 50 years but you can't more than double the size of the regs book without making things more complex and requiring more study time

So my question to you would be which apples should I be comparing, an hour back then is no different to an hour now, so how do you condense the training to less than half the time now regardless of learning ability and distractions given that the trade has advanced technologically in the last 20 - 30 years
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What I took from the comment you object to is that, along with very competent electricians who took years to become fully qualified, there are also many electricians who turn out appaling work - the latter are part of the reason I want to retrain. Equally there will be many who want to earn a quick buck from short courses, but also many others who want to use such courses as a means of getting in to the industry and who want to learn this craft in such a way as they can turn out work to a very high standard.

In short, we're all guilty of making assumptions and we're all likely to be proven both right and wrong in doing so.
The problem you highlight is there nothing to stop anyone calling themselves an electrician regardless of what level of study or qualification they have achieved, you are critical of electricians turning out appalling work but have you ever checked what qualification or level of training they have
All the comments around training only ever seem to refer to how easy it is to carry out an installation with no mention of faultfinding or identifying potential issues with meter readings which can be a critical part of an EICR

All of this reminds me of a guy I got chatting to at one of the shows he had done the short courses and been asked by a customer to change an outside light but couldn't find where to isolate it so he recommended that the customer got a proper electrician in to sort it
 
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