Hi guys whats your take of how many EICRs can be done properly in a day average of 5 to 8 circuits ranging from 1 bed flats to 3 bed houses?? This would also include travel and also doing any repairs whilst there?
- Thread starter magnoliafan89
- Start date
The C&G set entry requirements for all their courses yet all these quick training companies seem to circumvent them. How can you do a 2391 course with no core electrical qualifications or experience
Not sure how you get to the conclusion that the adult training providers provide the exact same training a 3 year day release course has about 1026 hours theory study + the onsite experience 4 days a week while attending college a 16 week course only gives you about 560 hours theory study with no site experience to underpin the theory the day release course doesn't include the 2391 but the 16 week course does
The real problem is getting a broad range of site experience so you don't get pigeon holed into just one industry sector
Getting into the industry after 19 - 21 has always been difficult when I started if you were over 18 you had no chance as the apprenticeship funding was based on age. In the late 70's and early 80's there were the government skill centres that offered 6 months training to get a trade
So how many years would it take to get qualified, people don't want to wait now
Not sure how you get the C&G as 90% theory when a lot of the under pinning knowledge comes from onsite experience, in recent years there has been more exam coaching using past exam papers than actual real world teaching which in my opinion has devalued the C&G qualifications
As I have previously said the difference in study hours does not equate to a 16 week course you cannot deliver the same training in less hours and on a like for like basis including the 2391 in a 16 week course makes it even more light on hours for the basics especially when you are also including the exams
In response to the original question I generally only do one EICR in a day (£175), but I could easily do 2 if I wanted to (on average). They take 4 hours on average, home for lunch, 1-2 hours writing it up and including a fairly in depth quote for remedials.
So, in answer to the OP. 1, very occasionally 2.
So, in answer to the OP. 1, very occasionally 2.
Out of interest how long would it take you guys to carry out an EICR on this board? No FRC all radials, with lets say on average 10 sockets per MCB on those that have the socket symbol, lighting MCB's have an electronic latching relay for multiple switching. Should have said, three phase board split into mono phase for the circuits, one three phase supply to the barn/garage.
Maybe get a 2365 C&G book and read through it. It's really not the rocket science you seem to think it is - the vast majority of it is literally theory and nothing to do with even installing.
You either know how to do something or you don't. If you don't, you don't pass. If you do, you pass. If you can follow regs and know how to install and test to standards then there's no reason you are any less qualified than a recently qualified apprentice. I did an apprenticeship in welding and the first two years was college plus navvying on site doing grinding, stuffing box with insulation, sanding up, sweeping, making tea, being made to do all the ---- jobs and no actual welding. Regular apprentices finish their apprenticeships green as grass.
These courses leave you no different. It's the experience that's missing in both cases and you can only get the experience one way. I just think it's better to get some experience working alongside someone else before you tackle big jobs alone, but lets not make out that putting in rings, radials and showers are some sort of privileged job - the basics are very easy to get down safely and quickly. It's the experience in dealing with real world problems which is missing but you'll figure that as you come across it.
People will disagree and that's fine. I know people who served time are protective of their jobs and whatever but there are tonnes of time served sparks out there doing horrendous work so i'm not sure i can agree on the point with the courses. People are either conscientious or not and they either know how to do it properly or they don't. These courses ensure you do. What you then do with it is what will set you apart. Do you keep learning or do you think you suddenly know it all because you have paperwork?
I will get my c&g and then i will work with a spark as a semi-qualified electrical 'apprentice' of sorts to get my NVQ alongside real world experience as i think it's the best way to do it for an adult learner.
Judging by the standard of the 2391 course... quite easily !
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You're not comparing apples with apples... an hour of training for a 16yo apprentice when he's distracted by his phone or still feeling the effects of his 'herbal' hobby or been up all night on the latest video game... is a totally different hour to an 'adult' learner who's paying his own way, well prepared for the days learning, does extra work when he gets home etc. etc.
N
nicebutdim
I'm currently gathering the funds to start with distance learning. My preference was to go to college, but that's not currently possible as no colleges locally offer 2365 to anyone over the age of 24.
I get the objections to people using a short course to set up their stall and start doing work they're in no way prepared for, but it's definitely rather blinkered thinking to assume that everyone wants to take a short cut toward charging top dollar for 2nd rate work. It's going to cost a substantial sum to get through the courses I want to do and it's not something I'll be entering into lightly.
Over the years I've worked with plenty of young folk - not so long ago I was one myself - and work ethics vary greatly from one person to the next. There are apprentices out there who will be a real credit to their trade and there are apprentices who need a kick up the backside or dumped from their course for wasting everyone's time and money. Similarly there will be adults entering the industry with the intention of taking every possible shortcut, while charging the greatest amount possible, but is it really so difficult to comprehend that plenty of others want to qualify in order to get a foothold that will allow them to gain practical experience and want to turn out top notch work using the skills and knowledge they've worked hard and paid handsomely to gain?
I find your comment quite offensive, specially when I started in this industry at 15 years old
41 years ago.
You are just trying to stereotype all 16 year old apprentices,I worked dam hard to learn my trade on next to nothing salary, given my mum a few pound a week for keep.
Then getting it back the next to put petrol in my mini to get to work, those times were very difficult will never forget , but glad I stuck it.
Maybe you have a point in 2020, with the youth of today, but then I could say why learn a trade in your 40's, its nobody's fault you missed the boat at 16.
Begin'g to sound like the Monty Python sketch the four Yorkshireman.
N
nicebutdim
I started working 30 years ago and found that there were plenty my age who put their heads down and worked hard, but also plenty who weren't interested in anything which they didn't gain immediate gratification from and I reckon the same is true today.
I don't think you should be offended by the comment you quoted any more than I should be offended by people who dismiss condensed training out of hand. There is no "youth of today" any more than there was 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. There are people with a strong work ethic and people who expect everything should be handed to them, along with many shades of grey between those extremes.
What I took from the comment you object to is that, along with very competent electricians who took years to become fully qualified, there are also many electricians who turn out appaling work - the latter are part of the reason I want to retrain. Equally there will be many who want to earn a quick buck from short courses, but also many others who want to use such courses as a means of getting in to the industry and who want to learn this craft in such a way as they can turn out work to a very high standard.
In short, we're all guilty of making assumptions and we're all likely to be proven both right and wrong in doing so.
Not sure who you are or what you are with your hidden profile but one thing I am certain of you have little or no knowledge of this trade judging by your derogatory comment that some on here will find insulting
I started out 10 years before the first cell phone existed if you wanted a recreational diversion it was treated with respect and not taken to work there was not a cat in hell's chance of going on a forum or using Google to get help it was 20+ years away all we had were libraries if we needed to find information and that took hours rather than seconds
Back then college was one day a week from 9am till 8pm for 36 weeks a year, with 2 years study to get your "A" cert with a further year to get your "B" cert if you hadn't had enough by then you could do another 2 years and get your "C" cert and over the 5 years there was also a lot of hours put in at home while your mates where down the pub. If this industry is so easy why did the C&G stop the "C" course and exam in 2007, one of the reasons given was because the exam pass rate had fallen below 30%
Back then the "A" cert was the minimum qualification to become an electrician and unless you got the "B" cert you were treated as a second class spark by your peers which is why many of a certain age will treat the current training with much disdain
Having worked through 4 changes of regs that saw the book double in size from A5 to A4 and add many additional related publications the industry is one that has become more technical with the onset of technology, ok the basic domestic installation has not changed that much in the last 50 years but you can't more than double the size of the regs book without making things more complex and requiring more study time
So my question to you would be which apples should I be comparing, an hour back then is no different to an hour now, so how do you condense the training to less than half the time now regardless of learning ability and distractions given that the trade has advanced technologically in the last 20 - 30 years
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The problem you highlight is there nothing to stop anyone calling themselves an electrician regardless of what level of study or qualification they have achieved, you are critical of electricians turning out appalling work but have you ever checked what qualification or level of training they have
All the comments around training only ever seem to refer to how easy it is to carry out an installation with no mention of faultfinding or identifying potential issues with meter readings which can be a critical part of an EICR
All of this reminds me of a guy I got chatting to at one of the shows he had done the short courses and been asked by a customer to change an outside light but couldn't find where to isolate it so he recommended that the customer got a proper electrician in to sort it
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N
nicebutdim
Look at the electrical industry from the perspective of a domestic customer and you've pretty much nailed the problem...
Joe Bloggs comes home to find his downstairs lights have gone out and he reaches for the yellow pages (more likely google these days). He has no concept of the various levels to which any of the electricians he calls might be qualified to and, quite frankly, nor should he. It's reasonable for that consumer to assume that anyone advertising their services as an electrician should be able to find the fault and fix it, but sadly we know that fault finding and repair can take many different forms and can be carried out to a wide range of standards - that's not casting aspersions on any particular people, it's a simple and sad fact of life. If the average householder was to ask what level an electrician was qualified to, the answer would mean nothing to them.
I'll give you some examples from personal experience:
1. My parents paid to have some electrical work carried out in the 80s by a time served elctrician. The cables were pulled in so roughly that I subsequently found (when doing unrelated work) that over 10' of continuous outer sheath was torn, with line and neutral insulation damaged in several sections and conductors exposed to any rodents that might happen upon them. This was a guy who served his time in the 70s and had a decade of domestic and commercial experience under his belt.
2. New build house with split load board and one RCD begins to trip after a year. I wanted to know what was causing this fault and have it repaired, so my first port of call was the electrician who wired the place. I was more than happy with his previous work, but the guy is very busy and hard to get hold of. During a brief phone conversation he felt the RCD was the least likely cause and that the most likely the fault was caused when I'd changed some accessories (at my other half's insistence) to decorative and he promised to call and do some testing. I was pretty certain that the change of accessories hadn't been the cause of this issue, but would have been happy to be proven wrong. Unfortunately the electrician didn't turn up and also failed to show on a subsequently arranged day - 18 months later I still haven't heard from him. I was still stuck with an RCD taking out half the board and no means of heating a drop of water, as the boiler was on one of the affected circuits, and a wife and child who were less than impressed with intermittent hot water when showering. I tried finding local electricians through google and spoke to quite a number. Many were busy with contract work and were quoting 6-8 weeks before they could fit me in, while most others were happy to come reasonably quickly, but talked of replacing the RCD and shied away when I asked if they could test to find the actual cause. By this stage constant resetting of the RCD had meant that it was nigh on impossible to reset and I was no closer to finding a local electrician who was competent in testing. In the end I reluctantly stuck in a new RCD in the hope that it might buy some time and haven't had any issues since - was the RCD the cause of my problem or is something else still underlying, but not causing enough earth leakage to trip? I've no idea, but hopefully by this stage you get the point I'm making.
Getting back to the point on which people have argued; what would make me or any other aspiring electrician who chooses the short course route less than competent? Someone who wants to blaze through in the sortest time possible and learn the bare minimum is no different from an apprentice who puts in the bare minimum of effort and scrapes through their apprenticeship. There's no reason why someone who goes down the short course route wouldn't seek to gain years of experience alongside a competent electrician and only undertake work which is well within their abilities.
The term "missed the bus" was used earlier to dismiss another member whose opinion was not appreciated. I'm not offended that someone wished to defend their trade, but do feel that comment was unwarranted. At what point does a person miss the electrical bus? The commentator in question clearly felt that anyone entering the industry as an adult fits the bill, but what about apprentices who have to resit their GCSE english or mathematics? Should they be thrown off the bus? Maybe those apprentices who fail modules of their training shouldn't be given the chance to resit them.
I don't want to spend 6 weeks training and then bust out my tools in unsuspecting households. I want to get into an industry that is particularly difficult to enter as an adult and, unfortunately, the only route available to me is through distance learning. My plan is to study hard and get a good grounding in theory, then find work as an electrician's mate to gain my NVQ and continue in that vein to gain good experience. I accept the fact that some electricians will regard my route into the industry as less acceptable than their apprenticeship, but I can live with that and have no intention of leaving work behind me that anyone can find fault with. There are many time served electricians who work to the highest standard, but the fact remains that a significant number do not. If someone is keen to learn and wants to work, they'll always have an advantage over those who want to do the bare minimum and that applies regardless of the route taken in to the industry. Maybe my opinions will be unpopular or unwelcome, but there's no harm in considering more than one side of a discussion.
Well I got called to look at a job yesterday, rejig kitchen rfc for a builder, place is gutted everywhere lovely.....so quoted him for that all agreed and date set, he also mentions he wants an eicr as he’s renting the place on completion.....there’s the kitchen rfc...1 lighting circuit 3 lamps 4 switches and 1 other rfc 4 points....even as I’m just about to install and verify one of them 3 circuits I reckon I still couldn’t beat the 45 min merchant ?
I'm an EICR a day man up to 4 bedroom, if it's a 4 bed detached garage with an extension then I go for two days. I have every accessible socket opened and checked, light fittings wiring checked and loads of visual before my MFT comes out? The amount of times I've found crap light installations that could give good readings but fail because Mr diy has done it is beyond me. I had a call from an estate agent asking me to price for landlord certs , when I said £230 a day and big houses are two days, you could hear the sharp intake of breath. I would rather do a quality EICR than a rushed one and miss the only socket with twisted cpc's but not connected to the earth connection.
Wow £150 per property... I charge £40:00 per property and still lose some at that price..and yes 2 per day is plenty. In addition i worked for a large testing organisation based on the South East some years ago and at the time I left they were expecting 50 circuits per day tested.
My advice to you is get your qualifications and try to shadow a qualified spark if you’re thinking of doing a crash course. I’m not going to slate you I don’t like the 6 week courses which then make you “qualified” Absolute rubbish. Aslong as you dont try to carry out work on your own thinking you know it all and you spend a couple of years at least with a senior spark who tests you then you’ll be fine. I understand what you’re saying with tradesmen who don’t put the effort in but again are you doing the inexperienced thing of finding faults in other people’s work? That’s all too easy to do but not your own. You disagreed with me on another subject on here which I like. I divide opinion with my views and don’t come on here to say yes Sir! enjoy the debate Be boring otherwise ?
N
nicebutdim
The examples I gave weren't intended to be critical, but simply real experiences. The first example was someone who was certainly capable, but rushed through a job without much concern - the damaged cable wasn't pulled blindly through a void, but was pulled through freshly drilled joists with boards lifted. There's no way it went unnoticed at the time as exposed red insulation was glaringly obvious when I lifted those boards many years later, but I'd also question how likely it would be that you could strip 10' of sheath in a ceiling void without realising the cable wasn't pulling freely? The second example was of me finding myself in a situation I'd rather not have been in - no questioning ability or working practices, but simply a situation where good sparks were in high demand. If I was to level one criticism, it would be that communication could have been better and I suspect the guy I originally called wouldn't argue with that.
It's not money that provided the motivation to re-train, but a desire to do something that genuinely interests me, so I'm in no rush to hang out a shingle and grasp every job that comes along. I'd rather have gone to a local college, but that simply can't happen as no courses are currently available for the upcoming term. As I've been self-employed for most of my life, and have other sources of income, my hope is that the idea of someone being available at short notice, who doesn't have to be on the payroll, might appeal to a local electrician and this flexibility could lead to more regular work. It would be great to secure full time work with someone who is well experienced, but I'd also be happy to work a few days each week in order to gain experience.
If there's one thing I have learned over the years, it would be my limitations and knowing never to start a job that I'm not confident of completing successfully.
£40 is totally unrealistic for an EICR and I would question what you are managing to test and inspect in the hour or so you are on site as well as write up the cert if your losing some at that price then what are people expecting
How on earth can anyone hit 500 tested circuits per day, that is about 9.6 minutes per circuit on an 8 hour day non stop is this just a drive by of every circuit as you haven't got time for anything else
How much? Is that a typo? Surely can't be charging £40 to travel to site, inspect, test, fill out report, etc. for that?
Surely this thread has been done to death now and is veering off topic ??
I'm still interested to know more about the £40 EICRs.
In answer to your question the tests were carried out and the results entered into a computer package, at predetermined intervals the details were sent to the office for checking..if it was seen that you were falling behind the expected circuit test rate a gee up telephone call was received suggesting you got your finger out. In that way the customers received their report within a few hours of it being finished.
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well this is the going rate here i guess ..it seems to be fairly standard here
I assume at £40 an EICR that is what you, as an employee, are getting?
The company you work for would be charging significantly more.
G
GBDamo
Been asked to remove all electrics on a wall that is in the process of collapsing.
All the four DBs look pretty good.
So starts on one socket circuit and found it to be a lollipop off an abandoned cooker switch.
Second circuit had two 'twist n tape' loop extensions plastered into old back boxes.
Phoned boss, need to EICR this before we do anything else, it's a mess.
He asked "How long"
Three days me and lad.
He then Informs customer and the customer agreed.
Happy days, the lad may actually get to learn something.
Reading all these stories of four in a day I feel slightly ashamed but we'll make it last
All the four DBs look pretty good.
So starts on one socket circuit and found it to be a lollipop off an abandoned cooker switch.
Second circuit had two 'twist n tape' loop extensions plastered into old back boxes.
Phoned boss, need to EICR this before we do anything else, it's a mess.
He asked "How long"
Three days me and lad.
He then Informs customer and the customer agreed.
Happy days, the lad may actually get to learn something.
Reading all these stories of four in a day I feel slightly ashamed but we'll make it last
Yes that's correct we were all self employed and responsible for our own transport to and from the job and our own test instruments and insurance ..as previously stated no travelling time was paid but it was better than nothing ...some time ago I remember a thread on this site about what should be charged as an hourly rate and I was astounded at the rates that some people claimed they charged..£30 per hour seemed to be common....I fail to see how anyone gets work at that rate unless you are highly specialised and working in a very wealthy sector of the economy.
Mate I charge £30 a circuit and I suspect this is what the people you are sub contracting to are charging if not more, you cannot seriously tell me you are putting your signature to a legal document for £80 a day on the outskirts of London??....you’d make more money stacking shelves man!
At £30 a circuit would surely have you earning more than doctor!!!! ....I have to be sensible in what I charge..I've never been able to charge anything like the sums you suggest.....your must work in a very wealthy area lol..are your clients all millionaires?
I’ll play along but for the record I think this is a wind up....you live just outside one of the most heavily populated and wealthy cities on the planet and you can’t earn more than £80 a day with a recognised trade?....you either are joking or completely undervalue your skills and the years put into learning them, you say you are self employed so I’m assuming own van,fuel,tools,insurance (liability and indemnity) Testers and calibration etc etc, You obviously work within the domestic market so are probably with a scheme....there is no way even if you worked seven days a week that your business is a viable prospect mate you are not even making wages let alone any profit....what are your plans if your van breaks down or your testers break??
Its easy to believe Brian is winding us up but i know of a company called CLC electrical who employ sparks and pay them about £40 a test. Needless to say the quality of these tests is utter cow dung! And the electricians themselves are absolutely useless.
I fact I may start a thread on their work.
Brian seriously though with what they're paying you go self employed you'd get paid a lot more. I live in a rural farming town and the rate here is 30 to 40 an hour and those guys aren't short of work.
I fact I may start a thread on their work.
Brian seriously though with what they're paying you go self employed you'd get paid a lot more. I live in a rural farming town and the rate here is 30 to 40 an hour and those guys aren't short of work.
Well £80 is day is £400 a week or 1600 a month which is a good deal better than some jobs i see advertised...and seems reasonable for electrical work .
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hi yes I am self employed it seems that no one will employ anyone you if your not
I'm not self employed and work for a company and take home 2k on a flat week. I get a company van, power tools provided even hand tools if I want them, 30 days holiday, ample overtime, sick pay, healthcare plan, an amazing pension, flexitime if needs be, the whole nine yards....and in my neck of the woods we are seen as not that desirable pay wise!!!
No it’s not reasonable at all for electrical work mate, not even if you were on the cards, I pay my lowest paid labourer £400 a week....have some faith in your skills and abilities the worst that can happen is you earn £400 for probably half the amount of work...
Why does someone need to employ you if you're self employed??
£2k a week? Take home?....now I regularly swear I’ll never go cards in ever again and I’ve had some good jobs......where is Hereford I’m on me way...?
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