Ideas welcome rcbo replacement

[Gazthesparky]

So I have a job coming up, a customer wants most of the socket fronts replacing in there house.

The board is an old GET board with MCBs not an RCD in sight.

As GET are discontinued I can not get RCBOs to swap out the MCBs

So I have a couple of proteus RCBOs although I hate them they seem to be the same size as the GET gear so Im hoping they fit properly. I don’t like mixing manufacturers but I don’t have a choice.

Failing they don’t fit I’m going to fit a small dB by the side of the existing one leave the MCBs in place and wire the RCBOs off them and then to the circuits.

This is a lot of work but I cannot see another way around it.

I don’t want to put a front end RCD in the sub board as this means all the sockets will be on the one RCD meaning you loose everything when a fault arises

I have suggested a board swap but they had the board change 5 or 6 years ago so don’t want to go down that route.

So open to any other creative ideas instead of having to pull all 3 ring circuits into a new board.

Cheers

 

[Pete999]

Can't imagine anything worse ...........

Nor me uggghhh, but my Mrs still loves me, I think.

 

[richy3333]

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

Have to agree with you here Murdoch. Socket outlets per se in this scenario. Don’t need RCD protection at this time unless the OP has omitted any info. I’m more worried about the suggestion of mixing different manufacturers parts contrary to IET and BEAMA guidelines.

Price to do the job properly else walk away.

 

[Midwest]

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

The whole house?

 

[Octopus]

The whole house?

Why not .... you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink ......

It’s only changing sockets ....

 

[Toneyz]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits:------------------------------
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets:-------------------
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.-----------
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.
Pete,
Look at post 6 I have added to your sentences if you still can't see I will retype.

 

[Midwest]

Why not .... you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink ......

It’s only changing sockets ....

It seems the electrician who replaced the CU had a similar attitude, when there was the opportunity or requirement to install additional protection via RCD. This new work includes changing some of the back boxes, and single sockets are being replaced with twin conversions.

The guidance I was given at the time, if the replacement is like for like & is because of damage etc, then it would be considered just maintenance. This doesn't appear to be just that.

Not something I would do personally. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

 

[Gazthesparky]

Have to agree with you here Murdoch. Socket outlets per se in this scenario. Don’t need RCD protection at this time unless the OP has omitted any info. I’m more worried about the suggestion of mixing different manufacturers parts contrary to IET and BEAMA guidelines.

Price to do the job properly else walk away.

Just need to understand why RCD protection isn’t required? Yes if you were replacing 1x damaged socket front then that’s maintenance but every socket is being touched.

With regards to different manufactures parts in the consumer unit normally I would never mix and match but on this occasion the GET are obsolete and been taken over by schneider I belive so will look at trying to get one of those to fit properly. It’s like Vw,audi,Skoda, all parts share it’s the same company. I have a feeling though I will go the external RCD route

In terms of pricing to do the job properly, I had informed and spoke to the customer regarding upgrading the consumer unit to include RCD protection.

The answer I got was the other 3 electricians never said I needed the consumer unit upgrading your looking for extra work the other guys are just replacing the sockets.

Does that mean I should refuse the job as I know I will be more expensive because the customer won’t pay for the extra work of installing a new consumer unit

 

[Pete999]

Retype please

 

[Andy78]

The answer I got was the other 3 electricians never said I needed the consumer unit upgrading your looking for extra work the other guys are just replacing the sockets.

Does that mean I should refuse the job as I know I will be more expensive because the customer won’t pay for the extra work of installing a new consumer unit

Are you going to get the work anyhow as you will be more expensive due to your RCD alterations ?

Yes, sometimes it's best to walk, especially when a customer starts to question your professional advice.

 

[Gazthesparky]

Agreed, I’m not saying in this instance it’s going above and beyond what is required but sometimes you can over spec a job because you are striding for perfection. It’s all about trying to gauge the customer

 

[JK-Electrical]

In terms of pricing to do the job properly, I had informed and spoke to the customer regarding upgrading the consumer unit to include RCD protection.

The answer I got was the other 3 electricians never said I needed the consumer unit upgrading your looking for extra work the other guys are just replacing the sockets.

Ah! The old "the other guys never said anything about this so they're all correct and you are wrong" chestnut. It's at this point in the proceedings that I start moving towards the front door in preparation for my exit. I got tired of hearing this line a long time ago.

I recall visiting a potential customer to price-up a consumer unit upgrade. After a quick inspection, I brought it to the homeowner's notice that there was no main bonding present for the gas and water services and informed him that it would need to be done at additional cost prior to the changeover. "None of the other electricians who gave me a price mentioned anything about this bonding stuff, whatever the hell that is." It's difficult to win jobs when you're competing against unprofessional numpties who care only about money.

Does that mean I should refuse the job as I know I will be more expensive because the customer won’t pay for the extra work of installing a new consumer unit

In a nutshell, yes. Definitely. I would certainly shrug my shoulders and walk away if it was me who was standing in your shoes. I really can't be bothered trying to explain the advantages of RCD protection to customers who then accuse you of inventing work for yourself when in actuality you are merely trying to do the job to the best of your ability with their safety in mind. Walk away.

 

[Pete999]

Ah! The old "the other guys never said anything about this so they're all correct and you are wrong" chestnut. It's at this point in the proceedings that I start moving towards the front door in preparation for my exit. I got tired of hearing this line a long time ago.

I recall visiting a potential customer to price-up a consumer unit upgrade. After a quick inspection, I brought it to the homeowner's notice that there was no main bonding present for the gas and water services and informed him that it would need to be done at additional cost prior to the changeover. "None of the other electricians who gave me a price mentioned anything about this bonding stuff, whatever the hell that is." It's difficult to win jobs when you're competing against unprofessional numpties who care only about money.


In a nutshell, yes. Definitely. I would certainly shrug my shoulders and walk away if it was me who was standing in your shoes. I really can't be bothered trying to explain the advantages of RCD protection to customers who then accuse you of inventing work for yourself when in actuality you are merely trying to do the job to the best of your ability with their safety in mind. Walk away.

Probably because I have the time, and don't rely on working any more, but an idea, not just for you JK, but all potential CU changes.
It appears to me that most homeowners just don't know the rules and regulations, regarding changing CU.
Now me in my infinite wisdom wondered if it might not be a good idea, that when quoting for a CU change, you include in your package a copy of the Electrical Safety council's Best Practice Guide for CU changes and in your letter / quotation advise the client to read and inwardly digest. Just a thought. It's what I what I would do if I was still working, may save all the accusations of probing for extra work, what do you think? a good idea, or am I talking out of my backside?

 

[JK-Electrical]

Probably because I have the time, and don't rely on working any more, but an idea, not just for you JK, but all potential CU changes.
It appears to me that most homeowners just don't know the rules and regulations, regarding changing CU.
Now me in my infinite wisdom wondered if it might not be a good idea, that when quoting for a CU change, you include in your package a copy of the Electrical Safety council's Best Practice Guide for CU changes and in your letter / quotation advise the client to read and inwardly digest. Just a thought. It's what I what I would do if I was still working, may save all the accusations of probing for extra work, what do you think? a good idea, or am I talking out of my backside?

That's sage advice, Pete. I already do what you have advised vis a vis Best Practice Guide 1. I also draw the customer's attention to the requirements of regulation 132.16. Unfortunately, it rarely makes any difference though because usually all the customer is ultimately concerned about is £££. Sad but true.

 

[Pete999]

That's sage advice, Pete. I already do what you have advised vis a vis Best Practice Guide 1. I also draw the customer's attention to the requirements of regulation 132.16. Unfortunately, it rarely makes any difference though because usually all the customer is ultimately concerned about is £££. Sad but true.

Yes I thought that may be the case JK it's a sad reflection on how the public view electrical safety, until, God forbid someone gets fried, any safety come to that, the pound rules the day Mate.

 

[Toneyz]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits: BAD DESIGN, AGAINST REGS AND COULD TRIP OUT DUE TO CUMULATIVE/FAULTS ON OTHER CIRCUITS
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets: MORE EXPENSIVE, COULD NEED DEEPER BOXES & MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE IN CHOSEN DESIGN OF PLATE.
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.AGREE.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

THINK MEAN RCD.

 

[snowhead]

vis a vis Best Practice Guide 1.

As a Consumer I'd have lost interest in that leaflet at page 4, and there's another 12 pages to go?

 

[Pete999]

As a Consumer I'd have lost interest in that leaflet at page 4, and there's another 12 pages to go?

Might be a good idea to read the whole document in your case then Mate, as a Consumer / maintainer.

 

[Toneyz]

Did GET rcbos actually exist in the first place?

Yes according to my old 2004 catalogue but were two module but they could have been available after that in one module as we have as standard today not sure what consumer unit fitted by GET.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Personally if Proteus RCBO's fit properly then that's what I'd fit. Been in this situation plenty of times and as long as a different make fits properly it's never going to be a problem regardless of manufacturers instructions, because standard RCBO's are manufactured to the same specs regardless of make.
I really cant see why other options are being discussed.The idea of adding an up front RCD is quite frankly daft.

 

[Toneyz]

Probably because I have the time, and don't rely on working any more, but an idea, not just for you JK, but all potential CU changes.
It appears to me that most homeowners just don't know the rules and regulations, regarding changing CU.
Now me in my infinite wisdom wondered if it might not be a good idea, that when quoting for a CU change, you include in your package a copy of the Electrical Safety council's Best Practice Guide for CU changes and in your letter / quotation advise the client to read and inwardly digest. Just a thought. It's what I what I would do if I was still working, may save all the accusations of probing for extra work, what do you think? a good idea, or am I talking out of my backside?

No and they are F.O.C.

 

[Octopus]

I'm playing devils advocate here BUT where does the BBB specifically state that replacing socket fronts means the circuit HAS to comply with the latest regs..............

That's what the other 3 "sparks" would say

Given there are at least 4 people quoting, then simply quote for the replacement CU along with the replacement sockets and forget about it.......

 

[Midwest]

I'm playing devils advocate here BUT where does the BBB specifically state that replacing socket fronts means the circuit HAS to comply with the latest regs..............

That's what the other 3 "sparks" would say

Given there are at least 4 people quoting, then simply quote for the replacement CU along with the replacement sockets and forget about it.......

It doesn't, but doesn't define alteration or addition either.

I agree with your last paragraph though.

 

[Octopus]

It doesn't, but doesn't define alteration or addition either.

Yet another failure from the IET

I did try and tell them this at Elex yesterday ......... the chap I was talking to seemed surprised about their inability to write clear and coherent regulations ................

 

[Midwest]

Suppose that's why they do those on site guides, for us lesser mortals.

 

[telectrix]

try here:
DPE100 6AMP TO 40AMP 10KA TYPE B C SINGLE POLE RCBO : GE RCBO - The Fuse Company - https://www.thefusecompany.com/mcbs/ge-rcbo/dpe100-6amp-to-40amp-10ka-type-b-c-single-pole-rcbo.php

 

[Octopus]

Suppose that's why they do those on site guides, for us lesser mortals.

Like they are clearer ............. NOT

 

[Midwest]

Like they are clearer ............. NOT

Got more pictures & diagrams though.

 

[MFS Electrical]

So I have a job coming up, a customer wants most of the socket fronts replacing in there house.

The board is an old GET board with MCBs not an RCD in sight.

As GET are discontinued I can not get RCBOs to swap out the MCBs

So I have a couple of proteus RCBOs although I hate them they seem to be the same size as the GET gear so Im hoping they fit properly. I don’t like mixing manufacturers but I don’t have a choice.

Failing they don’t fit I’m going to fit a small dB by the side of the existing one leave the MCBs in place and wire the RCBOs off them and then to the circuits.

This is a lot of work but I cannot see another way around it.

I don’t want to put a front end RCD in the sub board as this means all the sockets will be on the one RCD meaning you loose everything when a fault arises

I have suggested a board swap but they had the board change 5 or 6 years ago so don’t want to go down that route.

So open to any other creative ideas instead of having to pull all 3 ring circuits into a new board.

Cheers

Am I missing something? Are you adding additional sockets in? Why do you want/need RCD protection if you are swapping like for like you aren’t altering the design of the circuit if your just swapping faceplates.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

GET was taken over by Schneider in 2006.
I would advise contacting Schneider to enquire whether their RCBOs are compatible with GET CUs.