Discuss New fire alarm qualification great for sparks in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Diver233

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what’s everyone’s thoughts.

Post Grenfell all fire alarm installers/ maintainers will most likely have to prove competency of fire alarm system. So potentially just being a qualified spark won’t give you the correct certification.
So a new qualification is coming in, it will be similar to the 18th edition exam but based on BS5839-1:2017.
It has been developed so that as a spark you have the base skills for cables etc, but just need to prove you can select and install the correct equipment in the correct place. So basically knowing BS5839-1.
This will be a full level 3 qualification recognised by Ofqual.
 
Evening , got something going on down here. Complex of holiday lets we do work for have had safety assessment by fire brigade, voluntary, they called them in to make sure they were compliant. Amongst masses of other items was an insistence on hard wirec, linked alarms, on dedicated circuit. Also emergency lighting to be fitted. Disagreements were had, a prohibition order on this year's lets was placed, (now under review). This has now gone legal while they argue about what to do "going forward!"
 
who installs hard wired fire alarms these days though? 2 weeks of 2 hairy arsed installers running 200m of FP200, disrupting business and decor, as opposed to 1 guy, 1 day installing wireless detection. total no brainer.

Telectrix, Post Grenfell won’t matter if you are doing radio or hard wired you will still need to prove competence of BS5839-1 . So the question still stands, or put it another way quoting clause 3.12 how do you prove competence of installing that system.

I understand what you are saying and if all radio was totally reliable over a ten to fifteen year period I would agree, but in my opinion after installing and inspecting many £m worth of radio jobs we are not at that point yet. If someone brings out a cost effective 10 year battery life reliable that does not need hard wired boosters all over the place I’d agree entirely.
 
Evening , got something going on down here. Complex of holiday lets we do work for have had safety assessment by fire brigade, voluntary, they called them in to make sure they were compliant. Amongst masses of other items was an insistence on hard wirec, linked alarms, on dedicated circuit. Also emergency lighting to be fitted. Disagreements were had, a prohibition order on this year's lets was placed, (now under review). This has now gone legal while they argue about what to do "going forward!"

This is a classic one, the holiday let’s would need to prove the system beyond doubt will be suitable and sufficient, don’t get me wrong the FRS are often incorrect but for some it’s cheaper to just do what they want rather than going legal with it.
One of the big hotel chains decided to change bedroom smoke detectors to heats, FRS didn’t like it so took them court, the hotel company fought it and many hundreds of thousands of pounds later and ruling by the governments chief fire adviser at the time Sir Ken Knight the hotel company were found not in breach of the RRO.
But most companies won’t risk doing that and just do what they are asked by FRS.
 
Westward do you live in a cave with no Tv or news ?.

Post Grenfell 11 working groups have been set up due to report back to government June this year.
Whilst a lot of it will mainly focus on HRRB, WG2 Installers (the one I’m on) is concentrating on competency of installers and maintainers, and not just fire engineers. Electricians, plumbers, joiners, roofers, fire engineers etc.
Government required the WG to report back with credible options of how people can prove competency in their field of work.
The Hackett report recommended 53 changes, the Government has said it will act on all 53.

http://www.frmjournal.com/news/news_detail.cic-welcomes-second-hackitt-competence-report.html

Approved document B is being rewritten also .
 
Amongst masses of other items was an insistence on hard wired, linked alarms, on dedicated circuit.

That just goes to show how stupid these decision makers are - people will just turn the circuit off.

And who exactly is going to be "policing this" - because Part P "policing has been such a success ............. not.
 
Hackitt recommended the creation of a Joint Competent Authority (JCA), which will merge the LABC (Building Control) with the local fire authority and the Health and Safety Executive. This means more visits on building sites and more scrutiny on how things are being built.
 
This is OTT - domestically it is so basic I don't see an issue, over and above domestic then you are often required to liaise with the fire services and building control so other than routing and installing the wiring which is covered even in the BS7671 then I see this as just another money cash cow scheme targeting our trade.

Cowboy installers will still be cowboy installers and won't take the course.
 
If it is similar to the 18th Ed course as mentioned in #1 then it will be a pointless exercise, you need a course which includes practical and class activities and a recognised piece of paper at the end. Not some attendance certificate. It is understood generally that doing electrical installation you require BS7671 but installing safety systems there seems to be a disregard to having the required Standards hence why most if not all small scale installations are not compliant.
 
Am I right in thinking that a defective refrigerator had something to do with it starting?
I used to be a domestic/commercial appliance technician.. I had many accreditations, was a member of dasa and approved agent by leading brands..
In that time I discovered many horrendous bodge up jobs, stats linked out,etc..
As well of looking at ways of preventing the spread of fires, we need to look at ways of preventing them starting in the first place..
We can’t just put everything in non ferrous enclosures
 
Hackitt recommended the creation of a Joint Competent Authority (JCA), which will merge the LABC (Building Control) with the local fire authority and the Health and Safety Executive. This means more visits on building sites and more scrutiny on how things are being built.

I have also heard that we may go back to adopting a regional fire officer that will ultimately grant a license before a building can be used which will include fore alarm checks.

Scotland already has this.
 
This is OTT - domestically it is so basic I don't see an issue, over and above domestic then you are often required to liaise with the fire services and building control so other than routing and installing the wiring which is covered even in the BS7671 then I see this as just another money cash cow scheme targeting our trade.

Cowboy installers will still be cowboy installers and won't take the course.

This seems to be an argument for why bother because cowboys will always be cowboys?
 
This seems to be an argument for why bother because cowboys will always be cowboys?
Not what I was meaning, I meant there are already sufficient regulation, procedures and checks if you follow the BS 5839 and BS7671 so why create another system on top that is only going to cost those who already adhere to the regulations.
It is the cowboys that won't be affected and won't be hit with the cost, what they should do is create an inspection body and have them checking out new and existing installs for compliance which should push the cowboys out of the industry but that is an added costing to government spending and not a profit incentive system so again the compliant professional trades person takes the hit while the cowboys who could be argued brought this about still carry on without challenge.

The whole Electrical industry is punished with organised costs like having to take courses and exams for small amendments and additional regulations at regular intervals and instead of just selling the amendments we are forced to buy new regs at high costs...

Have you ever wondered why so many regulations are ambiguous and why when questioned we find we get no straight answers then all of a sudden there are books been sold on the subject ... this isn't coincidence at all.
 
Not what I was meaning, I meant there are already sufficient regulation, procedures and checks if you follow the BS 5839 and BS7671 so why create another system on top that is only going to cost those who already adhere to the regulations.
It is the cowboys that won't be affected and won't be hit with the cost, what they should do is create an inspection body and have them checking out new and existing installs for compliance which should push the cowboys out of the industry but that is an added costing to government spending and not a profit incentive system so again the compliant professional trades person takes the hit while the cowboys who could be argued brought this about still carry on without challenge.

The whole Electrical industry is punished with organised costs like having to take courses and exams for small amendments and additional regulations at regular intervals and instead of just selling the amendments we are forced to buy new regs at high costs...

Have you ever wondered why so many regulations are ambiguous and why when questioned we find we get no straight answers then all of a sudden there are books been sold on the subject ... this isn't coincidence at all.

I agree with that but there is just too many people, especially electricians that do things like emergency lighting and fire alarms who honestly just check on-line and think that is it.

We berate non-qualified people for doing electrics then insist on doing things like emergency lighting and fire alarms when also not qualified.
 
If it is similar to the 18th Ed course as mentioned in #1 then it will be a pointless exercise, you need a course which includes practical and class activities and a recognised piece of paper at the end. Not some attendance certificate. It is understood generally that doing electrical installation you require BS7671 but installing safety systems there seems to be a disregard to having the required Standards hence why most if not all small scale installations are not compliant.


Yes in a perfect world it would work like that, however this assumes as a spark you already have a full set of practical wiring skills and just need to prove you also know BS5839-1.
This new exam will be the knowledge base skills, the practical you will prove by a AM2 type assessment.
 

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