Discuss Room light with two switches not working as expected - diy job or not? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Ladies and Gents,

This is my first post here so I'll thread a bit of an introduction into my question, but first, a one-line summary of why I'm here:

The two light switches in our living room don't work as expected, do the regs allow me to resolve this myself or does it have to be done by a qualified/registered electrician?

And here's the whole story.

We're nearing exchange on a cheap 1990s semi we're buying from our landlords after renting for a few years. We want to do some work on it and I'm researching how much electrical work I can do myself etc. I quickly realized troubleshooting can be a lot more complicated than I expected. This in turn made me think about an issue with our lights which I always thought was a mere niggle, but I'd now like to ascertain just how big an issue it is in case it has financial implications.

Switch arrangement

The living room has two switches with no visible branding:
Switch 1 is a dimmer knob which you depress to toggle on/off, and turn to adjust brightness once on.
Switch 2 is a bog standard one gang switch.
AFAIK either switch might even be 1 way (but I don't want to check if I don't have to. I had a look inside switch 1 ages ago for an unrelated reason and the face screws have flimsy sockets and it took an hour to put the plate back on).

Specific issue

There are a few ways to describe the way this currently operates:
1. You can use either switch to turn the light on, but you have to use the same switch to turn off. The other switch then has to be operated an even number of times to switch the light off.
2. If switch 2 is on, pressing switch 1 does nothing. If switch 2 is off, pressing switch 1 will toggle the light on and off. Once the light is turned on at switch 1, switching switch 2 does nothing.
3. If you turn the light on with switch 2, then press switch 1 once, then try to switch the light off at switch 2, the light will stay on until you press switch 1 once.
If the three descriptions above are not enough by themselves, then hopefully they are enough when read together. I've had a decent look online and found threads about all sorts of issues with two-switch setups, but none like what I've got.

Getting to the point: naturally this is something anyone could fix with the right tools and some more research. The question is, can you guys tell if the relevant BS and regs require someone qualified/registered for this, or would I be allowed to resolve this myself?

One final note in case it matters: the dimmer in Switch 1 no longer dims the light, it just stays on full brightness, but I'm pretty sure it's because the cheap ebay bulbs I bought are not dimmable. It used to dim fine with the old bulbs but otherwise the switches behaved as they do now, I just can't remember whether turning on at switch 2 gave the brightness set by the dimmer, or if it produced the full brightness.

Thanks for looking, hope the question makes sense but please let me know if you need any more information.
 
the issue is one of competence and ability to test any work to show it is complaint and issue the minor works afterwards. if you can do all this then carry on, otherwise get somebody else in who can.
given you already are in the house and are buying it from your landlord, why not get a eicr done and then possibly use it to negotiate price or maybe you could reach agreement with landlord to have things fixed that a report might highlight prior to completion.
Personally i think you would be best to get a decent local electrician in to have a look and advise you accordingly.
 
It does sound a bit of a mess, and needs a logical approach to fix.

You might have bust the dimmer with non compatibility of the new lamps .

Wait until you have ownership then get a spark is my suggestion. Fixing it will be cheaper than unraveling diy and then fixing it
 
Doesn't sound like a difficult thing to fix, nor an expensive one. A jobbing electrician should be able to sort that out and ditch the dimmer for a 1 gang 2 way switch at the same time.
 
Dimmer switches can be a pain mate. I used to have them in my living room but they had to be a certain type for them to work with the lights we had... I got so peed off with the lights not lasting as long as they used to that I just changed them to normal switches.... I'm happy now.. Lights only blow when the kids wack them with something.

given you already are in the house and are buying it from your landlord, why not get a eicr done and then possibly use it to negotiate price or maybe you could reach agreement with landlord to have things fixed that a report might highlight prior to completion.

I really like this idea.. If you were buying a car you wouldn't fix the problems yourself you would use the faults to negotiate a price... I suggest you do the same and you will get a full report on the condition of the electrics for the house as well.
 
And going back to your original post. This sort of electrical job is simple to resolve, but it takes a bit of knowledge, a level of competence, and some basic tools, to sort it.

With respect, if it takes you an hour to put a face plate back on, and you don't even know what the switches are, then you need to acknowledge that certain DIY tasks may be outside your pay grade.
A 1990s house should not have too much basically that needs doing - unless its been bodged - Find a nice friendly local electrician.
 
I get the problem you are describing however I (or others) could not provide a simple remedy for it. There is probably a junction box that the two way switching meets in that has been done wrong. It may just be that the wiring at the switches is wrong but a long shot. Of course there is the ceiling rose as well to investigate. It is only with experience that you can look in the switch and rose and testing will reveal the mystery. I guess this is beyond DIY scope.
 
Thank you all for your responses, they are much appreciated, plenty of food for thought. I've used your pointers for some more detailed googling, but a few question marks remain.
... issue the minor works afterwards.
Slightly off-topic, but I have to say the minor works certificate is a separate can of worms for me while looking into our various improvement ideas. There seems to be a lot of different opinions as to how little a job needs to be before you can get away without a minor works cert, I hope quotes from alternative forums are allowed.
How far do you go:-

If i have a 40W bulb decide to expire in my front room and i only have a 60W bulb to replace it with, do i need to certify the change? afterall, wouldn't i need to assess the change to the characteristics of the cicuit?
IET Forums - Like for like swap, minor works cert? - http://www.------.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=30001
My switches clearly would need one though so I guess we're all best off keeping that debate clear of this thread. But it's interesting how every industry has to have one of these eternal chicken and egg talking points.
why not get a eicr done and then possibly use it to negotiate price or maybe you could reach agreement with landlord to have things fixed that a report might highlight prior to completion.
I do like the idea, but I also have two questions:

1. How confident are you guys that my lights issue would be picked up as a non-compliance? Knowing my luck the current wiring would be deemed "silly but compliant". That would be the worst case for me really: my landlord/seller could easily reject any negotiation attempts saying I knew about it all along and it's compliant anyway, and I would then end up finding out it's a real mess and paying the friendly local a fortune for fixing it. Or leave it until one day when we are selling and I find myself battling a super-negotiator-buyer over this.

And by the way, there also seems to be a separate lot of debate online whether some pricebuster EICRs are worth the paper they are written on... Great.

2. With 1 in mind, who picks/pays the EICR provider? Bearing in mind many electricians reportedly refuse to remedy without doing an EICR type of inspection themselves? Then if the landlord picks/pays the provider, the lights and switch will probably be deemed a textbook example of compliance.
With respect, if it takes you an hour to put a face plate back on, and you don't even know what the switches are, then you need to acknowledge that certain DIY tasks may be outside your pay grade.
Well, that's what my beloved wife says anyway! But this could be debated too. If you trust the spirit of the regs/BS/etc, then anything that doesn't HAVE to be done by a pro, COULD therefore be done by a diyer, and with the right attitude etc is therefore worth learning to do as part of futureproofing/being a man and all that.

HOWEVER, you can all rest assured you have talked me out of having a go at this one. I will see if I can go down the compliance/negotiation route, and if that fails I will get someone to look at it for us. Your opinions on the new questions I came to above would be welcome.
 
Ok, I guess zero responses is not as many as I got to my original post. Maybe I wrote too much in my second post above so I'll trim it down a touch.

Thank you all for your responses, they are much appreciated, plenty of food for thought.
given you already are in the house and are buying it from your landlord, why not get a eicr done and then possibly use it to negotiate price or maybe you could reach agreement with landlord to have things fixed that a report might highlight prior to completion.
I do like the idea, but I also have two questions:

1. How confident are you guys that my lights issue would be picked up as a non-compliance? Knowing my luck the current wiring would be deemed "silly but compliant".

And by the way, there also seems to be a separate lot of debate online whether some pricebuster EICRs are worth the paper they are written on... Great.

2. With 1 in mind, who picks/pays the EICR provider? Bearing in mind many electricians reportedly refuse to remedy without doing an EICR type of inspection themselves? Then if the landlord picks/pays the provider, the lights and switch will probably be deemed a textbook example of compliance.
...
HOWEVER, you can all rest assured you have talked me out of having a go at this one. I will see if I can go down the compliance/negotiation route, and if that fails I will get someone to look at it for us. Your opinions on the new questions I came to above would be welcome.
 
Ok, I guess zero responses is not as many as I got to my original post.

1. How confident are you guys that my lights issue would be picked up as a non-compliance? Knowing my luck the current wiring would be deemed "silly but compliant".
They do not function as intended,that would be coded,probably as a 3.A code 3 would not make the installation as a whole unsatisfactory,it is a recomendation to improve

And by the way, there also seems to be a separate lot of debate online whether some pricebuster EICRs are worth the paper they are written on... Great.
If you want a Eicr for your own peace of mind that the installation is safe,choose a electrician based on "his" testing qualifications and experience, not by the company he works for or scheme registration

2. With 1 in mind, who picks/pays the EICR provider?The person who engages him Bearing in mind many electricians reportedly refuse to remedy without doing an EICR type of inspection themselves?Sorry that is utter nonsense Then if the landlord picks/pays the provider, the lights and switch will probably be deemed a textbook example of compliance.Read my earlier reply
...
HOWEVER, you can all rest assured you have talked me out of having a go at this one. I will see if I can go down the compliance/negotiation route, and if that fails I will get someone to look at it for us. Your opinions on the new questions I came to above would be welcome.It seems to me (at a guess) you have a problem that I would expect to remedy in minutes,I am puzzled why this what seems to be a very minor problem is causing you such anguish,surely there is a honest reliable spark that is known to you or your friends that would sort this problem in a jiffy
 
Hi - not sure if your Certificate question was clarified. In my humble opinion - a Certificate is required if the fixed wiring is worked on but not required when changing what is attached/plugged into accessories. The Certificate records the proper functioning of that part of the installation that had work done and it could be MWC or EIC.
 
Ok, I guess I owe the forum a little update after we completed our purchase yesterday.
1. After I was last here it turned out the installation had not been tested for eight years so the landlords apologized and sent an electrician in as rental houses are supposed to be inspected every five years.
2. He came up with four recommendations for improvement, some pretty minor stuff.
3. When I mentioned about the lights he had a look and sorted it out in five minutes. The front (master) switch had one red swapped with yellow, he swapped them back and the light now works as normal.
4. He also replaced the dimmer with a one gang traditional switch, on the assumption it was faulty. I later saw the dimmer has a sticker on the back saying minimum power 50w, maximum 150w. The bulbs we've been using are under 50w so that mystery is also solved, although strictly speaking a fault with the dimmer is not ruled out.

Thank you all once again for your responses.
 

Reply to Room light with two switches not working as expected - diy job or not? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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