switchgear for lift

[russells]

Hopefully this one will be a simple one to answer.

A lift in a premises as been determined as a fire lift (to be used in evacuation under fire conditions)
the lift as to have 2 supplies of power, with basically switchgear (not provided in the lift electrics) that would simoultaneously cange the supply if one of the cables supplying was burnt out.

So this is the situation, we have a mains board in a building with plenty of spare ways in the board, and capacity, we will run two single phase supplies from this board to the lift motor room (by the way the fuseboard cupboard, and the lift motor room have enhanced fire protection) the cables have to go through different routes in the building fabric to get to the motor room (basically have a fire compartmentation drawing of the building and cabling must take different routes in different fire zones) (fire officer happy with this so).

My question is what switchgear do we have in the motoroom, we obviously have two cables from the same fuseboard that will go through a changeover switch, one cable will be master(either one) and one will be slave. the need will be for the power to not be interupted to the lift.

it is possible that we could use a manual type switch, again what would this switch be called, does this exist.

I am not an electrician but a construction manager, this problem is looming in the near future, this isnt in original building spec and will have to cop the cost our electrical contractor is going to wrap me up in smoke and mirrors and try and charge me a fortune so hopefully can gather as much information as possible.

Welcome any questions, and of course answers.

Russell

 

[trev]

Both supplies coming from the same board but taking different routes to the proposed motor room.
What happens if the fire breaks out in the location of the board?

 

[russells]

Trev

If the fire breaks out at the actual board then that will obviously cut out both supplies, however the fire zone will be identified as in the board and the evacuation plan would be not to use the lift. (there is very detailed fire strategy training for all staff)

it is a nursing home with a two storey lift in a almost remote extension, (remote being they are linked by a passageway, glazed corridor).....and before somebody points out, one cable will run internally, and one will run on the wall externally at eaves, (so as two give fire compartment seperation)

Russell

 

[spark 68]

Both supplies coming from the same board

That's what I was thinking Trev,
usually they have to come from two different DB's and usually one is a backup supply/essential supply (Generator or otherwise), this falls under safety/life support regs.

I would try and get some more information first, before deciding anything.

Some other posters on here will have more experience of these things.

 

[Des 56]

An automatic transfer switch will cost you a bomb and even then your supply is not guaranteed

Why cant they use a battery powered secondary system

 

[spark 68]

I have built the auto transfer part before, this is not a major problem,

but it is the problem of the second supply and all of the associated additional building/safety/fire regs which will be the problem

 

[johnboy6083]

Hopefully this one will be a simple one to answer.

A lift in a premises as been determined as a fire lift (to be used in evacuation under fire conditions)
the lift as to have 2 supplies of power, with basically switchgear (not provided in the lift electrics) that would simoultaneously cange the supply if one of the cables supplying was burnt out.

So this is the situation, we have a mains board in a building with plenty of spare ways in the board, and capacity, we will run two single phase supplies from this board to the lift motor room (by the way the fuseboard cupboard, and the lift motor room have enhanced fire protection) the cables have to go through different routes in the building fabric to get to the motor room (basically have a fire compartmentation drawing of the building and cabling must take different routes in different fire zones) (fire officer happy with this so).

My question is what switchgear do we have in the motoroom, we obviously have two cables from the same fuseboard that will go through a changeover switch, one cable will be master(either one) and one will be slave. the need will be for the power to not be interupted to the lift.

it is possible that we could use a manual type switch, again what would this switch be called, does this exist.

I am not an electrician but a construction manager, this problem is looming in the near future, this isnt in original building spec and will have to cop the cost our electrical contractor is going to wrap me up in smoke and mirrors and try and charge me a fortune so hopefully can gather as much information as possible.

Welcome any questions, and of course answers.

Russell

please remember your responsibilities my friend, as there was an incident recently, where a back up supply was not adequate and a young man died (his respiratory equipment stopped working), when the power failed. I beleive that the HSE will sucessfully prosecute the people responsible.

IMO the above would have been avoided, had an automatic generator been supplied to the premises in question.

If a fire causes a short circuit to any one of the cables from the same board, then it is likely that the breaker supplying that board will trip, unless your discrimination is spot on.

IMO, it is well worth exploring the possibility of a backup generator

 

[russells]

At moment fire officer is happy that both supplies will come from same dis board, both supplies need to be dedicated from mains board and this is only option anyway. (obviously we could have another power supply from our proivider....again cost!!)

(automatic transfer cost a bomb says des56,)(not sure about battery supply, )


What would you call a manual changeover switch??

 

[russells]

johnboy,

The home does have a backup generator supply, this is a manual changeover, the periodic inspection of this equipment and is fine, its not my baby anyway, i am a contractor building a new extension were the existing building as capacity to run the new extension,

the client as payed a fortune for fire consultation and this is what we have to provide, as i have said i am just trying to stay one step ahead of the costs from my electrical contractor, by being savvy about the cost and the options.
russell

 

[trev]

What about an uninterruptible power supply? expensive I know but the advantage could be that if main power fails then back up power kicks in almost immediately, no need to go looking for the guy who knows where the manual changeover switch is in the dark etc

 

[russells]

Again trev, the generator back up for the home is non of my buisness, It meets with the CQC who are the body that give them the ticket to operate the home (care Quality commision)

 

[spark 68]

My Final piece of advice Russell, is to get everything in writing and not just verbal.

I understand the 'mechanics' of changeovers etc. but Iam not clued up on the legal aspects.

 

[trev]

I reckon I know a couple of guys who can answer this one. I shall PM them for you Russell

 

[johnboy6083]

netblind paul being one of them?

 

[Specialist]

That's what I was thinking Trev,
usually they have to come from two different DB's and usually one is a backup supply/essential supply (Generator or otherwise), this falls under safety/life support regs.

Not done this sort of Install for a long time, but when we were doing them the Lift allways had 1 primary supply from the Mains & the Back up was from a Generator, switchover was allways Automatic, Never Manual.

In the event of a fire or other Emergency where power goes out but you need the Lift for evacuation you can't rely on someone remembering to go and do the switch over, possibly risking their lives in the process.

 

[trev]

netblind paul being one of them?

If he were on yes but he wernt

 

[spark 68]

The other point on this generally is, AFAIK this is not subject to 'Normal' BS7671 requirements.

 

[mogga]

Id suggest automatic change over for the generator and running second supply from genny db most backup gennys iv seen only have anuto change over BUPA Homes have a genny hookup not an onsite genny tho

 

[russells]

ok theree may be some discussion to the whole set up being not normal etc.

the question remains, what name for switchgear, name of automatic switchgear, name for manual switchgear.

I need to start looking at costs for switchgear, but do not know what to search for.

just on a note, the management of a fire situation in this home, (like many others) is a controlled evacuation, the staff have very thorough training and the whole building infrastructure, both the existing and the new have enhanced measures for ,
1. Ignition of a fire being incredibly unlikely (obviously arson is never considered in the fire equation as you just cannot build in measures.) combustible material as been risk assessed an non combustible replacements are prefered.
2. fire fighting equipment both manual estinguishers, and a sprinkler system. (fire fighting training to all staff)
3. fire alarm and zone reference panels at strategic and nursecall points.
4. mag locks, overhead automatic door closures to all bedrooms, fire compartmentation enhanced over what part B LABC determines.

The risk is taken very seriously, and managed very seriously.

Russell

 

[spark 68]

Generally when we have built this kind of switch gear, it is just called an Auto Changeover,

As several of the posters have already said, this will be located at a point where the person responsible for safety/fire/building control deems to be suitable, the supply cables taking two different routes, depending on the zoning of the building.

As I already have pointed out the PIR for this is subject to different rules than BS7671, and may fall under various different Statute laws, which I cannot advise on.

This is a complex and specialist problem on so many levels, and costs may not be a consideration for parts of this.

Netblind Paul and several other contributors on here may be able to give you a more in depth answer.

 

[Engineer54]

Russel,

What you have here, as you have described it so far, is a can of worms to be honest with you!! Whether you like it or not, you are going to have get involved with the existing electrical installations, because they will be integrally combined with your new contract works. I'm pretty sure there must be something in your contract of work on this issue too!!

Anything that has a title of ''Emergency or Essential'' that involves electrical supply or supplies will need to be automatic, and not manual. It isn't normal to have a secondary, or emergency supply taken from the same DB. So in your case, i would be looking at the stand-by generator as your secondary means of supply. (if it is of sufficient size/rating) This will need to be on an automatic basis as mentioned above, not on a manual switch.

Now for a few questions for you.... What happens to the existing supply when a fire alarm is initiated, does it knockout all but essential electrical supplies, or nothing at all?? What if anything is going to initiate a changeover from one supply to another for this lift?? You can't just say If one of the cables gets burnt out!! Are you sure that the lift motor is a single phase motor, i've personally never seen one?? Is the DB you are talking about an existing unit, or one supplied/installed under your contract?? Is there any chance of you posting some photo's of the DB (open) and the generator installation??


I'm going to leave it there for the time being, to see what you come back with. I think you've done the right thing by looking at this problem before it hits you. I think you have far more to be concerned about, than your electrical contractor hitting the contract with extra costs, to be bluntly honest with you.

 

[Specialist]

ok theree may be some discussion to the whole set up being not normal etc.

the question remains, what name for switchgear, name of automatic switchgear, name for manual switchgear.

I need to start looking at costs for switchgear, but do not know what to search for.]QUOTE

Just a thought Russell & maybe i'm missing something but the Electrical Contractor / Engineer your useing for this project should know all of this, if they're up to the job.

 

[Knobhead]

The change over equipment must be in the motor room. During a fire access isn’t practical. So it’s down to an auto-changeover. I’ve had a look on Google and a contactor based unit can be found for £290. These were listed as suitable for residential and commercial use. Motor Starters UK » Automatic Transfer Switch either the ATS-R or ATS-P. But please speak to your on site engineer first before deciding.

Avoid home made units like the plague due to certification problems. I could soon put a drawing together for you to have built, but I won’t!

 

[Engineer54]

ok theree may be some discussion to the whole set up being not normal etc.

the question remains, what name for switchgear, name of automatic switchgear, name for manual switchgear.

I need to start looking at costs for switchgear, but do not know what to search for.]QUOTE

Just a thought Russell & maybe i'm missing something but the Electrical Contractor / Engineer your useing for this project should know all of this, if they're up to the job.

I get the impression, that he doesn't trust his electrical contractor to give him an honest answer. Maybe they have been trying to cream the contract?? But as you say, they should be his first contact for advice on this matter. I can see this turning into a can of worms for him if he doesn't get it right or tries to cut corners on the costs side of things...

 

[benji]

who installed the lift ? is there an electrical consultant who should be responsible for specifying equipement

 

[Specialist]

I get the impression, that he doesn't trust his electrical contractor to give him an honest answer. Maybe they have been trying to cream the contract?? But as you say, they should be his first contact for advice on this matter. I can see this turning into a can of worms for him if he doesn't get it right or tries to cut corners on the costs side of things...

Totally agree with you Eng 54, If I was in his shoes i'd be getting pretty wary about now. If his Electrical firm can't Spec this properly & don't know the correct terminolgy for the parts required, maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

 

[Engineer54]

who installed the lift ? is there an electrical consultant who should be responsible for specifying equipement

This guy's a ''Site Manager'' so he is the guy that is project managing the whole installation accross all the trades and disciplines. So even if the contracts electrical installation was designed by a consultancy company, they aren't involved anymore, and this is i believe an ''Addition''!! So they would want an additional fee for this work. The last people to get advice about emergency lift supplies, is the lift company involved. I say this from experience, they will want solid gold for the supply, and then install tinplate on their side of the installation. ...lol!!!

 

[Engineer54]

Totally agree with you Eng 54, If I was in his shoes i'd be getting pretty wary about now. If his Electrical firm can't Spec this properly & don't know the correct terminolgy for the parts required, maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

I'm not saying they can't spec the additional works now requested, i'm sure they can. Just that for one reason or another the guy doesn't seem to trust them, from piling on the costs in the process!! lol!!
I don't think he's approached them officially or unofficially as yet....

 

[alarm man]

very tricky situation,id speak to the lift manufactures ie otis/kone etc and see what they recommend supply wise in the event of a fire and evacuation as they id imagine would have strict guidelines and power supply needs that their equipment needs in such an event

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In my experiance, there are always two supplies specified.
Could be a generator, or a second supply from the distributor.
Word of warning, always check phase rotation when using two supplies.
I have known two supplies from the same distributor to be out of sequence.
Causes motors to run backwards when changed over.

 

[Engineer54]

very tricky situation,id speak to the lift manufactures ie otis/kone etc and see what they recommend supply wise in the event of a fire and evacuation as they id imagine would have strict guidelines and power supply needs that their equipment needs in such an event

In normal building fire situations, on inital fire alarm activation, lifts will decend to ground floor, open and then close doors after time delay and then power down and remain there. In this case they want the lift to be operational as a means of evacuation for patients etc...

I maybe would take advice from them, regarding statutory requirements, but little else...

 

[alarm man]

In normal building fire situations, on inital fire alarm activation, lifts will decend to ground floor, open and then close doors after time delay and then power down and remain there. In this case they want the lift to be operational as a means of evacuation for patients etc...

I maybe would take advice from them, regarding statutory requirements, but little else...

id take what they say as gospel really,they
make them and set guidelines how they work,if anything fails in an emergency,the standard reply would be'you did what? oh no we recommend you do this'

 

[spark 68]

It may be that the OP has got to liase with more than one party,
as we don't know whether the lift is controlled by a BMS system.

There are too many blanks to fill in at this point in time, but whatever the OP originally thought that this was a simple question, I agree with E54, this has opened a big can of worms.

I know enough to know that I don't know enough.

 

[Engineer54]

Hmmmm, .... From Experience, i wouldn't take everything they say as gospel!! If you think they will put things in writing for you, then your going to be sorely disappointed. All they will give you, is there power requirement for there installation. they will not be interested in how it gets there, that is, as long as it's not run in there lift shaft!! Anything they put in writing, they will be responsible for, ....believe me they won't do it!! lol!!!

 

[alarm man]

Hmmmm, .... From Experience, i wouldn't take everything they say as gospel!! If you think they will put things in writing for you, then your going to be sorely disappointed. All they will give you, is there power requirement for there installation. they will not be interested in how it gets there, that is, as long as it's not run in there lift shaft!! Anything they put in writing, they will be responsible for, ....believe me they won't do it!! lol!!!

they will,an evacuation lift differs from a passenger lift,hence different regulations and supplies.

 

[Engineer54]

they will,an evacuation lift differs from a passenger lift,hence different regulations and supplies.

They will , ..What?? As i said, i would take note of any regulation they may quote, but that's about it!! I can assure you they won't put anything else in writing, there not even too interested in your problems. I've dealt with all the big international lift companies and there all basically the same!!!

 

[russells]

Ok, A big thanks to all who have posted to this topic.

The situation is that we are a design and build company, our client as already struggled to meet some of the variations to our contract, (the cost is escalating). he is about to cop yet another additional cost, (secondary supply for lift and changeover switching). as a measure of keeping a lid on these costs i am making sure our electrical contractor dosent "sniff gold", to do this i want to be able to converse fluently about what may be required. its early days yet, I will keep this post alive as things develop.

a couple of clear up lines.
1. Yes sorry it is a three phase motor.
2. The back up generator powers up the main Dis board, (the home owners are going into a contract with a company that installs a hook up and supplies a genny at 4 hrs notice if power is off)
3. Lift company have agreed principle of secondary supply.

Russell

 

[benji]

might be worth using FP400 cable instead of usual SWA cable

 

[Engineer54]

a couple of clear up lines.
1. Yes sorry it is a three phase motor.
2. The back up generator powers up the main Dis board, (the home owners are going into a contract with a company that installs a hook up and supplies a genny at 4 hrs notice if power is off)
3. Lift company have agreed principle of secondary supply. Russell

Russell,


From what you describe here, i can see little point or reason for a second/essential supply to this lift, as it's not being derived from a separate source. The fact that there is no permanent stand-by generation facility also leads me to this conclusion. All you will be achieving by supplying an automatic dual supply to this evacuation lift from the same DB/supply, is negating a fault on one of the supplying cables or protective devices. I can't see it being of any use in a fire condition either, as it will probably take more time to destroy one of the supplying cables than it will to have completely evacuated the building, especially when as you say the fabric of the building is almost totally fireproofed

If the generator is being supplied by a company, only as and when needed, then there is no-need for an auto change-over switch on that side of things either, Just a standard manual changeover switch will suffice, along with a means of easy connection to the changeover switch...

EDIT... How many dwelling units is this fire evacuation lift covering, has an evacuation time for residents been considered in the risk assessment of this building, if so what is that time allowance...

 

[russells]

engineer 54

Thanks for your input.

Quite simply, I have been in a meeting with LABC, and fire officer + client.
LABC will not agree to a fire strategy for the layout of the building (yes i know this should of been approved at the early design stage, but commercially the home extension needed x amount of bedrooms to be viable as a buisness, yet plannners restricted the footprint of the building, CQC have strict guidelines on bedroom size and communal room size, thus resulted in a single staircase and a lift. At the meeting LABC have agreed that if the lift is used as part of evacuation then criteria in part B is met,

For said lift to meet requirements a secondary electrical supply as to be installed, that takes a different course through building to lift motor room.
Many questions have been raised here that are not really relevant, there is detailed fire evacuation procedure for the building. in fact if the fire is in the existing part of this home the extension is not to be evacuated immediately, there is a 2hr barrier, therefore if there was a fire at the main dis board which wiped out power to this lift, there is a three hour integrity from this fusebopard to the extension were the lift would be used. The rules change for mass evacuation when old and vunerable people become involve, ( as you can imagine fire does not care if it arrives on a -10 degrees freezing 2 0 clock in the morning, or even in a torrential prolonged downpour, Exposing old people to something like that because you have mass evacuated a building which only as a car park as a muster point.

Russell