Where are you getting your metal buckle clips

[haptism]

Wheres the best value for £ metal buckle clips to be found in 2019, ive seen the SAREN ones but they are well pricey, and you need to buy the nails for them separately. The Shneider metal clips from screwfix £12 per 100 wtf. Where are the compliant housebashers getting clips for T&E nowdays ??

 

[Cid]

How often are you running cables above a door way to make it an issue?

 

[Diver233]

Doesn’t the 18th now insist on metal everywhere not just above doors and escape routes

 

[cliffed]

Doesn’t the 18th now insist on metal everywhere not just above doors and escape routes

Yes I believe so,or proper metal containment,where appropriate.
Let’s go back,go back,when we were all installing correctly & proper,conduit,trunking etc .

 

[SparkyChick]

521.10.202 Wiring systems shall be supported such that they will not be liable to premature collapse in the event of a fire.

NOTE 1: Wiring systems hanging across access or egress routes may hinder evacuation and firefighting activities.
NOTE 2: Cables installed in or on steel cable containment systems are deemed to meet the requirements of this regulation.
NOTE 3: This regulation precludes, for example, the use of non-metallic cable clips or cable ties as the sole means of support where cables are clipped direct to exposed surfaces or suspended under cable tray, and the use of non-metallic cable trunking as the sole means of support of the cables therein.
NOTE 4: Suitably spaced steel or copper clips, saddles or ties are examples that will meet the requirements of this regulation.

 

[cliffed]

Well done that man

 

[SparkyChick]

The Schneider clips are actually quite nice and you don't have to use them along the entire run. Every third clip or something is probably going to be enough.

Personally, I'd like to get some buckle clips but like you @haptism I've not managed to find them at a decent price.

 

[westward10]

Well done that man

I know SC is one of the lads for want of better words but I don't think SHE is planning to go the whole hog

 

[The_apprentice2.0]

This isn't for clipped direct but the clips used in this video are smart (bit pricey) but gives a good explanation of premature collapse and whats required

(spot the upside down sockets )

 

[Andy78]

I'd struggle to think of too many places in a domestic install where I would need buckle clips really.

 

[pirate]

I get mine from Saren. Don't use that many of them, so cost isn't really an issue, and their customer service is excellent.

 

[haptism]

I get mine from Saren. Don't use that many of them, so cost isn't really an issue, and their customer service is excellent.

I thought Sarens only sell buckle's to landlubbers lol

 

[telectrix]

think pirate confused with turnbuckles. they're magical adjusters for rigging stays etc.

 

[pirate]

Turnbuckles Tel, quite right.
But I have fancy buckles for my best shoes (swish buckles)
and a whole load of others for normal business (swashbuckles)

 

[Blissof89]

I'd struggle to think of too many places in a domestic install where I would need buckle clips really.

Only place i can think of is in a garage, don't think I've ever just clipped a cable across someones living room wall.

If we are running surface cabling then its usually mini trunking and those D-Line clips.

 

[haptism]

Only place i can think of is in a garage, don't think I've ever just clipped a cable across someones living room wall.

If we are running surface cabling then its usually mini trunking and those D-Line clips.

How about a 5m run along a single joist (without going through the joist itself) in a loft with lathe ceiling below, what about that !

 

[Blissof89]

Lathe I hardly ever see that stuff anymore. I'd not really thought about it but I guess the fire rating is pretty bad.

Would it still be considered 'premature collapse of the wiring system' if the ceiling below has already collapsed? Obviously fitting a metallic clip is going to be best practice, you can't really go wrong then but it makes me wonder where to draw the line at 'premature collapse'.

Edit: D-Line advertise their clips being used outside of trunking also so I guess thats an option. Idk what the price of them is like, I'm on the books so just book them out at wholesaler

 

[Andy78]

If the fabric of the building has collapsed then the collapse of the wiring system could hardly be described as premature.

 

[haptism]

If the fabric of the building has collapsed then the collapse of the wiring system could hardly be described as premature.

Good point Andy, can I ask where you would consider installing metal buckle clips or similar in domestic ?

Other than clipped direct at high level in a loft; or along a hall, or over a door (which would likely be in trunking anyhow, utilising metal u-clips), I cant think of any other scenarios.

 

[Andy78]

Good point Andy, can I ask where you would consider installing metal buckle clips or similar in domestic ?

Other than clipped direct at high level in a loft; or along a hall, or over a door (which would likely be in trunking anyhow, utilising metal u-clips), I cant think of any other scenarios.

Like you say, up high in a loft might be a good idea, and across a joist in a garage, but otherwise not many cases in domestic work where I would clip direct where the cable would not be supported by the building fabric.

 

[Blissof89]

Externally prehaps? Cables/conduit above doorways could be liable to collapse and block the escape path

 

[westward10]

Just finished some work in my bosses new house lots of cabling put in loft space and no fire rated fixings employed.

 

[Andy78]

Just finished some work in my bosses new house lots of cabling put in loft space and no fire rated fixings employed.

Suppose you could argue that if the fire was in the loft to melt the clips then the ceiling would have already failed

 

[westward10]

I feel it is a pointless exercise.

 

[Andy78]

I feel it is a pointless exercise.

The entire regulation and its intention, or just the situation you were on about ?

 

[Wilko]

If the loft is not a habitable space I guess cabling, if it were to fall, is falling onto the ceiling ...

 

[westward10]

The entire regulation and its intention, or just the situation you were on about ?

Just the situation in the loft space.

 

[7029 dave]

Yes I believe so,or proper metal containment,where appropriate.
Let’s go back,go back,when we were all installing correctly & proper,conduit,trunking etc .

Yes if anybody knows how to do it in these days.? lol

 

[pirate]

If you are clipping in a loft space, let's look at the situation where we have cables clipped to boards that span the rafters. The usual clips are fine to be hammered in where the support boards are on or very close to the main timbers...hammering halfway betyween the main timbers is hopeless due to the bounce, unless you can get someone to hold a big hammer behind...so, you use buckle clips, substituting small screws for the nails. That way, you can drive the screws in midway, through the clips, and just fold the buckle over the cable...if that makes sense.

 

[fes]

I've undertaken a couple of domestic re-wires this year and decided to go the whole hog on the fire rated clips, to see the impact on cost and time. To clarify, I used F-Line clips from D-Line. These allow 3/4 cables side by side. Used them every 400mm or where practice. Only used them when traversing ceilings or the loft and I hadn't gone through the joists. Quite time consuming to keep changing from hammer to impact driver when swapping from plastic clip to metal strap. Factor in a couple of boxes of 10x1.5 screws and the overall costs aren't a deal breaker at an additional £30 or so. It's the additional time spent and the ball ache of dragging the impact, screws, 2 lots of clips and the hammer around with you in confined areas. Looking at the metal clips from SF, I reckon £12 for 100 isn't too bad.

 

[tudore]

Doesn’t the 18th now insist on metal everywhere not just above doors and escape routes

I think it says it is appropriate to use metal clips anywhere, but only required for FP where the cable retains its integrity in a fire i.e. won't melt.

 

[sparksfly]

If cables boxed or hidden in under floor I'm laying cables on nails or screws in joist with the odd steel tie and sometimes simple banding. I bought some schneider T/E metal clips this week, look good (cheaper than SF from Rexel) but yet to use these on show with plastic clips.
Now back to buckle clips.. anyone got an update on prices?

 

[Blissof89]

There is no requirement for metal cable support under floors, above ceilings inside boxing etc.

The idea of the reg it to prevent cables collapsing prematurely in the event of a fire and hindering evacuation of the building or access for firefighters. Think of a stairwell with loads of SWA tied to tray with plastic ties.

 

[sparksfly]

Thank you Blissof89 for pointing this out....as usual I get confused with parts of BS7671 when it states on Page5 521.10.202 "...and applies throughout the installation, not just in escape routes as previously"
so much for buckle clips !

 

[Blissof89]

It's just a change in the scope of the regulation from escape routes to the full installation.

The key phrase is 'premature collapse' if the very fabric of the building is collapsing then there are bigger problems than a few cables dangling in the way. In general it is for surface mounted cabling.

Edit: A word

 

[SparkyChick]

It's not inconceivable that a plasterboard ceiling will collapse before the fabric of a building degrades to a point where the fire service won't consider entering the premises, particularly if they are inside fighting the fire with water.

If that happens, the cables you've decided aren't subject to premature collapse because they are supported by the plasterboard could come raining down presenting a risk to fire fighters trying to enter or leave.

A couple of quid, a few clips, lengths of all band or whatever seems a small price to pay for potentially making the installation safer for those who choose to put themselves in harms way so that those unlucky enough to be caught up in a fire have a chance of surviving the ordeal.

 

[Blissof89]

Plasterboard ceilings are part of the fabric of the building imo, if they are collapsing a lot of your light fixtures are going to be posing the same threat as cables would have. I wouldn't say the above scenario would be a case of premature collapse of the wiring system.

I'm not saying you should not be using fire rated cable support above these ceilings, just stating that it is not a requirement. Over engineering is rarely a bad thing, but there is a tendency in this trade for people to over engineer base on their own personal opinion and then bad mouth those that do not tow the line.

I remember the confusion over AMD 3 consumer units and the use of 'fire rated' cable glands for these enclosures, or filling half the enclosure with fire rated sealant , partly fuelled by manufactures and distributors to boost sales.

 

[sparksfly]

I agree with the above comments... I have been in a number of fire damaged properties over the years and have been amazed at the amount of fine burnt electrical wires looping down from the ceilings incl FP (plasterboard or false ceiling). Just trying to work around these after the fire was difficult enough. If we can spare a few minutes by securing cables out of the way and possibly help save lives then thats no bad thing. thwacking a number of nails in a joist is quicker than cable clips any day.