Electrical safety certificate and downlights

[tom1972]

Hi,
If a house is fitted with non-fire rated downlighters between the ground and first floor back when this was common, should they need to be replaced before the property could get a safety certificate?
Cheers,
Tom

 

[Taylortwocities]

They do not need replacing. Like many urban myths, there is no requirement to fit fire-rated downlights, anywhere, unless the ceiling (that you have turned into a swiss cheese) is a fire-rated ceiling.
Fire-rated ceilings are only commonly found between purpose-built apartments and in places like the ceilings of integrated garages.

PS What sort of "safety" certificate are you after, and why do you need it?

 

[tom1972]

They do not need replacing. Like many urban myths, there is no requirement to fit fire-rated downlights, anywhere, unless the ceiling (that you have turned into a swiss cheese) is a fire-rated ceiling.
Fire-rated ceilings are only commonly found between purpose-built apartments and in places like the ceilings of integrated garages.

PS What sort of "safety" certificate are you after, and why do you need it?

Thanks for the reply. It's a rented property. It didn't fail the last check 3 years ago so I'm suspicious it shouldn't need to be updated.

 

[Octopus]

Are you the owner or spark?

 

[Midwest]

I thought they put plasterboard up the protect the wooden joists from premature failure, in the event of a fire; or is it just to look pretty then?

 

[tom1972]

Are you the owner or spark?

I'm the landlord of the property

 

[Taylortwocities]

@Midwest I’m hoping that’s a serious question?
You should know that Plasterboard will provide a degree of fire protection. A single sheet of 12.5mm Gyproc is estimated to deliver up to 30 Minutes of fire resistance BUT when standard domestic house plans are made there is no inter-floor fire resistance requirement.
Why not? Just stand at the bottom of your stairs and estimate the fire delaying characteristics of that 13-step chimney!

So there’s no practical reason to stop up downlight holes with intumescent materials.

If the ceiling IS a fire barrier
See
What is the fire resistance performance of Gyproc plasterboard - https://www.british-gypsum.com/technical-advice/faqs/050-what-is-the-fire-resistance-performance-of-gyproc-plasterboard
Then the integrity must be maintained, but not unless it is a fire compartment that has been compromised.

You may way to take a risk assessment and say, it’s my daughters room above the kitchen so I want fire-rated fittings. It’s up to you. My choice would be to plan how I get her from her bedroom and out of the house, when the stairs are on fire.

 

[Octopus]

I'm the landlord of the property

Have you got a new EICR with a C2 against these lights?

If so please go back and ask for the reg number to back up the decision

 

[tom1972]

@Midwest I’m hoping that’s a serious question?
You should know that Plasterboard will provide a degree of fire protection....

That was essentially my understanding from reading around too although I suspect I would fit fire rated if I were replacing them anyway.

Should it get a certificate with the existing downlights or were all the previous electricians who passed it wrong? It has had a certificate every 3 years(ish).

 

[tom1972]

Have you got a new EICR with a C2 against these lights?

If so please go back and ask for the reg number to back up the decision

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

 

[Octopus]

To give a C2 there needs to be a code.

Suggest you email them and see what they say.

Also Googleb electrical safety Best practice guide number 4, issue 4 and print and read

hope this helps

 

[Midwest]

@Midwest I’m hoping that’s a serious question?
You should know that Plasterboard will provide a degree of fire protection. A single sheet of 12.5mm Gyproc is estimated to deliver up to 30 Minutes of fire resistance BUT when standard domestic house plans are made there is no inter-floor fire resistance requirement.
Why not? Just stand at the bottom of your stairs and estimate the fire delaying characteristics of that 13-step chimney!

So there’s no practical reason to stop up downlight holes with intumescent materials.

If the ceiling IS a fire barrier
See
What is the fire resistance performance of Gyproc plasterboard - https://www.british-gypsum.com/technical-advice/faqs/050-what-is-the-fire-resistance-performance-of-gyproc-plasterboard
Then the integrity must be maintained, but not unless it is a fire compartment that has been compromised.

You may way to take a risk assessment and say, it’s my daughters room above the kitchen so I want fire-rated fittings. It’s up to you. My choice would be to plan how I get her from her bedroom and out of the house, when the stairs are on fire.[/QUOTE]

Last time I checked all rooms leading to my stair case have doors; albeit not fire doors but would go some way to negate the spread of fires. That's why you should close them at night, before retiring to bed. Surely you'll see the fire safety videos, to know that.

We also required to reinstate any holes we make in the structure of a domestic building, to the same level of fire protection as previously, to prevent the spread of fire. As I was alluding to, one of the reasons for using plasterboard, is to prevent the premature failure of structural timbers. Its also why non metallic cable clips, can be used above etc etc. So cutting large holes into plasterboard, and leaving them, would stop this simple system from functioning.

Of course there are specific building regulations to fire safety, but this does not exclude good practice.

Electrical Safety First Best Practise Guide 5 is an interesting read, and may be useful to the OP;

Best Practice Guides - https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/electrical-professionals/best-practice-guides/

​

 

[Pete999]

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

They do not need replacing. Like many urban myths, there is no requirement to fit fire-rated downlights, anywhere, unless the ceiling (that you have turned into a swiss cheese) is a fire-rated ceiling.
Fire-rated ceilings are only commonly found between purpose-built apartments and in places like the ceilings of integrated garages.

PS What sort of "safety" certificate are you after, and why do you need it?

Can you please answer this question^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Spoon]

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

What @Murdoch is getting at is your electrician can't just say "he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate" unless he specifies what electrical regulation the original lights are not complying with. This will have a regulation number.
As @Murdoch says, email your electrician and get them to explain why they all need replacing and what electrical regulation they are going against. State that you would like the reply in an email so that you have written proof of this conversation.

 

[tom1972]

Can you please answer this question^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The certificate is not required, but as its a rented property I like to know there isn't something lurking in there.

 

[tom1972]

What @Murdoch is getting at is your electrician can't just say "he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate" unless he specifies what electrical regulation the original lights are not complying with. This will have a regulation number.
As @Murdoch says, email your electrician and get them to explain why they all need replacing and what electrical regulation they are going against. State that you would like the reply in an email so that you have written proof of this conversation.

That's very helpful - thank you both

 

[Midwest]

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

Out of interest, how many down lights (non fire-rated) do you have?

 

[tom1972]

Out of interest, how many down lights (non fire-rated) do you have?

18

 

[Spoon]

The certificate is not required, but as its a rented property I like to know there isn't something lurking in there.

I thought Electrical Installation Condition Reports were required for properties that are rented out?

 

[tom1972]

I thought Electrical Installation Condition Reports were required for properties that are rented out?

No gas is required but electrical is optional

 

[Midwest]

18

Have you been given a quotation for the replacements (fire-rated)?

 

[tom1972]

Have you been given a quotation for the replacements (fire-rated)?

Yes. £50+vat per light

 

[telectrix]

for £50/light i'd fit integrated JCC V50 's . selectable colour temp and IP rated for bathroom zone 1 and 2.

 

[Midwest]

Yes. £50+vat per light

That seems a bit steep to me, bearing in mind its just replacement, depending on the particular down light selected.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes. £50+vat per light

He's having a laugh. Thats £1300 for something that doesn't need doing.

You haven't said what "certificate" you have asked for.

If it is an EICR (note that the R stands for REPORT, not CERTIFICATE)
An EICR only reports on the installation and where there are deviations from BS7671 (The Wiring Regulations).
So, as above, if he states a non-compliance, then he must state the BS7671 regulation that it contravenes. And there isn't one.

 

[Toneyz]

It could be that the existing downlight has thermal damage from excessive heat from the halogen lamps. What sort of lamps have you got fitted at present?

 

[tom1972]

He's having a laugh. Thats £1300 for something that doesn't need doing.

You haven't said what "certificate" you have asked for.

If it is an EICR (note that the R stands for REPORT, not CERTIFICATE)
An EICR only reports on the installation and where there are deviations from BS7671 (The Wiring Regulations).
So, as above, if he states a non-compliance, then he must state the BS7671 regulation that it contravenes. And there isn't one.

That's a good question. The managing agent organised it but I believe its a "report". I have emailed them for the details of the regulation they are concerned about.

 

[tom1972]

It could be that the existing downlight has thermal damage from excessive heat from the halogen lamps. What sort of lamps have you got fitted at present?

That's a very valid point, they are standard halogen bulbs. That isn't what they said in the initial email though. I will get more clarification.

 

[tom1972]

for £50/light i'd fit integrated JCC V50 's . selectable colour temp and IP rated for bathroom zone 1 and 2.

I have a feeling he thinks I was born yesterday

 

[Toneyz]

That's a very valid point, they are standard halogen bulbs. That isn't what they said in the initial email though. I will get more clarification.

If they are halogen then the heat produced is around 200 degrees C and could be a source of ignition if they are installed next to a joist or something combustible. Seen this so many times. reminds me when I was a Q.S. and the electrician drilled out part of a joist to get this halogen downlight in "well it's fire rated isn't it".

 

[Pete999]

The certificate is not required, but as its a rented property I like to know there isn't something lurking in there.

Bite the bullet and get an EICR done

 

[tom1972]

Bite the bullet and get an EICR done

I completely agree and the electrician has been in to do it. My point is should I need to replace all these lights to get a pass when I have never had a problem before.

 

[Pete999]

I completely agree and the electrician has been in to do it. My point is should I need to replace all these lights to get a pass when I have never had a problem before.

What did the Electrician say on the EICR, did the EICR prove to be a Satisfactory Report? If the Electrician has noted any dicrepencies then as you are the LandLord it's down to you to get them put right
file:///C:/Users/Pete/Desktop/Resources/BestPracticeGuide4-Issue3%20EICR.pdf

 

[Spoon]

What did the Electrician say on the EICR, did the EICR prove to be a Satisfactory Report?

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point.

Looks like the electrician or agency the OP has gone through are trying a fast one.
OP: Please clarify. First it wasn't a report and now it is... What did you actually ask the agency for? an EICR?

 

[tom1972]

Looks like the electrician or agency the OP has gone through are trying a fast one.
OP: Please clarify. First it wasn't a report and now it is... What did you actually ask the agency for? an EICR?

I didn't actually ask for anything. The agent prompted me that it had been 3 years since the last "which ever it is" and suggested organising it again so I am only guessing if its a report or a certificate. I didn't know there were two possibilities.

 

[gutterball]

An EICR is a report on the state of the installation, at the time the report was done. Any repairs needed will need a separate certificate. Either a minor works or an EIC, referencing the EICR that the work corrected. He should issue the EICR then it's up to you if you want the work done, and who does that work

 

[Pete999]

I didn't actually ask for anything. The agent prompted me that it had been 3 years since the last "which ever it is" and suggested organising it again so I am only guessing if its a report or a certificate. I didn't know there were two possibilities.

Get the EICR completed and take it from there Mate, read the Best practice guide I posted to you, you should also talk to your insurance company, to sassertainwhat, legally is required of you, as a LandLord, it does nobody any good walking about with their eyes shut, thingking they have done what is required of them. If you think you have already had an EICR done, let the Forum see a copy, shouldn't be to difficult to scan and post, doing this will enable the Forum to offer any advice that is relevant.

 

[Octopus]

£50 per light to replace them - that is one hell of a rip off

Get the agent to give you a copy of the report before you pay for it.

Do not give the go-ahead imho

 

[telectrix]

yeah. £50 /fitting is steep unless he fits decent integrated downlights. the ones i mentioned are these:
JCC V50 Selectable Warm White / Cool White Dimmable LED Downlight JC1001/NB | RS Electrical Supplies - https://www.rselectricalsupplies.co.uk/jcc-v50-selectable-warm-white-cool-white-dimmable-led-downlight-jc1001nb_12016

so each one is £35 labour for 20 minutes. good work if you can get it.

 

[Midwest]

yeah. £50 /fitting is steep unless he fits decent integrated downlights. the ones i mentioned are these:
JCC V50 Selectable Warm White / Cool White Dimmable LED Downlight JC1001/NB | RS Electrical Supplies - https://www.rselectricalsupplies.co.uk/jcc-v50-selectable-warm-white-cool-white-dimmable-led-downlight-jc1001nb_12016

Have you got shares in JCC, seem to be mentioning them a lot

 

[Midwest]

Me thinks the OP has got the picture now;

EICR has been defined a few times, Best Practise Guide 4 posted twice, me Guide 5, discussion on fire safety, down light recommendation & pricing. Who says we don't dish out advice for free

 

[telectrix]

Have you got shares in JCC, seem to be mentioning them a lot

nope. i just like them.

 

[tom1972]

Me thinks the OP has got the picture now;

EICR has been defined a few times, Best Practise Guide 4 posted twice, me Guide 5, discussion on fire safety, down light recommendation & pricing. Who says we don't dish out advice for free

Yes everyone has been very helpful - thank you.

I will wait and see what the electrician says about the reason for replacing them and take from there. I do want to do the right thing, but not waste a lot of money doing so.

Cheers

 

[Toneyz]

Have you got shares in JCC, seem to be mentioning them a lot

Maybe Tel fits them a lot and finds them a good product to install and reliable at a good price, nothing wrong with a good recommendation in this trade.

 

[Toneyz]

Yes everyone has been very helpful - thank you.

I will wait and see what the electrician says about the reason for replacing them and take from there. I do want to do the right thing, but not waste a lot of money doing so.

Cheers

who employed the electrician and were they recommended/preferred contractor by the agent.

 

[tom1972]

who employed the electrician and were they recommended/preferred contractor by the agent.

The agent arranged everything and I don't know who it is. I don't trust the agents as far as I can throw them so that's not a good start.

 

[telectrix]

agents are in it to line their own pockets. £50 per light will probably see £10 per light in agent's bank.

cynical?? who, me?

 

[Pete999]

The agent arranged everything and I don't know who it is. I don't trust the agents as far as I can throw them so that's not a good start.

Change the Agent!

 

[tom1972]

Change the Agent!

That might just be the best advice I have heard all day

 

[Midwest]

nope. i just like them.

Maybe Tel fits them a lot and finds them a good product to install and reliable at a good price, nothing wrong with a good recommendation in this trade.

God.... Everyone is so temperamental these days