Electrical safety certificate and downlights

[tom1972]

Hi,
If a house is fitted with non-fire rated downlighters between the ground and first floor back when this was common, should they need to be replaced before the property could get a safety certificate?
Cheers,
Tom

 

[Taylortwocities]

They do not need replacing. Like many urban myths, there is no requirement to fit fire-rated downlights, anywhere, unless the ceiling (that you have turned into a swiss cheese) is a fire-rated ceiling.
Fire-rated ceilings are only commonly found between purpose-built apartments and in places like the ceilings of integrated garages.

PS What sort of "safety" certificate are you after, and why do you need it?

 

[tom1972]

They do not need replacing. Like many urban myths, there is no requirement to fit fire-rated downlights, anywhere, unless the ceiling (that you have turned into a swiss cheese) is a fire-rated ceiling.
Fire-rated ceilings are only commonly found between purpose-built apartments and in places like the ceilings of integrated garages.

PS What sort of "safety" certificate are you after, and why do you need it?

Thanks for the reply. It's a rented property. It didn't fail the last check 3 years ago so I'm suspicious it shouldn't need to be updated.

 

[Octopus]

Are you the owner or spark?

 

[Midwest]

I thought they put plasterboard up the protect the wooden joists from premature failure, in the event of a fire; or is it just to look pretty then?

 

[tom1972]

Are you the owner or spark?

I'm the landlord of the property

 

[Taylortwocities]

@Midwest I’m hoping that’s a serious question?
You should know that Plasterboard will provide a degree of fire protection. A single sheet of 12.5mm Gyproc is estimated to deliver up to 30 Minutes of fire resistance BUT when standard domestic house plans are made there is no inter-floor fire resistance requirement.
Why not? Just stand at the bottom of your stairs and estimate the fire delaying characteristics of that 13-step chimney!

So there’s no practical reason to stop up downlight holes with intumescent materials.

If the ceiling IS a fire barrier
See
What is the fire resistance performance of Gyproc plasterboard - https://www.british-gypsum.com/technical-advice/faqs/050-what-is-the-fire-resistance-performance-of-gyproc-plasterboard
Then the integrity must be maintained, but not unless it is a fire compartment that has been compromised.

You may way to take a risk assessment and say, it’s my daughters room above the kitchen so I want fire-rated fittings. It’s up to you. My choice would be to plan how I get her from her bedroom and out of the house, when the stairs are on fire.

 

[Octopus]

I'm the landlord of the property

Have you got a new EICR with a C2 against these lights?

If so please go back and ask for the reg number to back up the decision

 

[tom1972]

@Midwest I’m hoping that’s a serious question?
You should know that Plasterboard will provide a degree of fire protection....

That was essentially my understanding from reading around too although I suspect I would fit fire rated if I were replacing them anyway.

Should it get a certificate with the existing downlights or were all the previous electricians who passed it wrong? It has had a certificate every 3 years(ish).

 

[tom1972]

Have you got a new EICR with a C2 against these lights?

If so please go back and ask for the reg number to back up the decision

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

 

[Octopus]

To give a C2 there needs to be a code.

Suggest you email them and see what they say.

Also Googleb electrical safety Best practice guide number 4, issue 4 and print and read

hope this helps

 

[Midwest]

@Midwest I’m hoping that’s a serious question?
You should know that Plasterboard will provide a degree of fire protection. A single sheet of 12.5mm Gyproc is estimated to deliver up to 30 Minutes of fire resistance BUT when standard domestic house plans are made there is no inter-floor fire resistance requirement.
Why not? Just stand at the bottom of your stairs and estimate the fire delaying characteristics of that 13-step chimney!

So there’s no practical reason to stop up downlight holes with intumescent materials.

If the ceiling IS a fire barrier
See
What is the fire resistance performance of Gyproc plasterboard - https://www.british-gypsum.com/technical-advice/faqs/050-what-is-the-fire-resistance-performance-of-gyproc-plasterboard
Then the integrity must be maintained, but not unless it is a fire compartment that has been compromised.

You may way to take a risk assessment and say, it’s my daughters room above the kitchen so I want fire-rated fittings. It’s up to you. My choice would be to plan how I get her from her bedroom and out of the house, when the stairs are on fire.[/QUOTE]

Last time I checked all rooms leading to my stair case have doors; albeit not fire doors but would go some way to negate the spread of fires. That's why you should close them at night, before retiring to bed. Surely you'll see the fire safety videos, to know that.

We also required to reinstate any holes we make in the structure of a domestic building, to the same level of fire protection as previously, to prevent the spread of fire. As I was alluding to, one of the reasons for using plasterboard, is to prevent the premature failure of structural timbers. Its also why non metallic cable clips, can be used above etc etc. So cutting large holes into plasterboard, and leaving them, would stop this simple system from functioning.

Of course there are specific building regulations to fire safety, but this does not exclude good practice.

Electrical Safety First Best Practise Guide 5 is an interesting read, and may be useful to the OP;

Best Practice Guides - https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/electrical-professionals/best-practice-guides/

​

 

[Pete999]

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

They do not need replacing. Like many urban myths, there is no requirement to fit fire-rated downlights, anywhere, unless the ceiling (that you have turned into a swiss cheese) is a fire-rated ceiling.
Fire-rated ceilings are only commonly found between purpose-built apartments and in places like the ceilings of integrated garages.

PS What sort of "safety" certificate are you after, and why do you need it?

Can you please answer this question^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Spoon]

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

What @Murdoch is getting at is your electrician can't just say "he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate" unless he specifies what electrical regulation the original lights are not complying with. This will have a regulation number.
As @Murdoch says, email your electrician and get them to explain why they all need replacing and what electrical regulation they are going against. State that you would like the reply in an email so that you have written proof of this conversation.

 

[tom1972]

Can you please answer this question^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The certificate is not required, but as its a rented property I like to know there isn't something lurking in there.

 

[tom1972]

What @Murdoch is getting at is your electrician can't just say "he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate" unless he specifies what electrical regulation the original lights are not complying with. This will have a regulation number.
As @Murdoch says, email your electrician and get them to explain why they all need replacing and what electrical regulation they are going against. State that you would like the reply in an email so that you have written proof of this conversation.

That's very helpful - thank you both

 

[Midwest]

The electrician said he needs to replace all of them before he can issue the certificate so I have no code at this point. I'm not sure what you mean about the reg number in this context?

Out of interest, how many down lights (non fire-rated) do you have?

 

[tom1972]

Out of interest, how many down lights (non fire-rated) do you have?

18

 

[Spoon]

The certificate is not required, but as its a rented property I like to know there isn't something lurking in there.

I thought Electrical Installation Condition Reports were required for properties that are rented out?

 

[tom1972]

I thought Electrical Installation Condition Reports were required for properties that are rented out?

No gas is required but electrical is optional

 

[Midwest]

18

Have you been given a quotation for the replacements (fire-rated)?

 

[tom1972]

Have you been given a quotation for the replacements (fire-rated)?

Yes. £50+vat per light

 

[telectrix]

for £50/light i'd fit integrated JCC V50 's . selectable colour temp and IP rated for bathroom zone 1 and 2.

 

[Midwest]

Yes. £50+vat per light

That seems a bit steep to me, bearing in mind its just replacement, depending on the particular down light selected.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes. £50+vat per light

He's having a laugh. Thats £1300 for something that doesn't need doing.

You haven't said what "certificate" you have asked for.

If it is an EICR (note that the R stands for REPORT, not CERTIFICATE)
An EICR only reports on the installation and where there are deviations from BS7671 (The Wiring Regulations).
So, as above, if he states a non-compliance, then he must state the BS7671 regulation that it contravenes. And there isn't one.

 

[Toneyz]

It could be that the existing downlight has thermal damage from excessive heat from the halogen lamps. What sort of lamps have you got fitted at present?

 

[tom1972]

He's having a laugh. Thats £1300 for something that doesn't need doing.

You haven't said what "certificate" you have asked for.

If it is an EICR (note that the R stands for REPORT, not CERTIFICATE)
An EICR only reports on the installation and where there are deviations from BS7671 (The Wiring Regulations).
So, as above, if he states a non-compliance, then he must state the BS7671 regulation that it contravenes. And there isn't one.

That's a good question. The managing agent organised it but I believe its a "report". I have emailed them for the details of the regulation they are concerned about.

 

[tom1972]

It could be that the existing downlight has thermal damage from excessive heat from the halogen lamps. What sort of lamps have you got fitted at present?

That's a very valid point, they are standard halogen bulbs. That isn't what they said in the initial email though. I will get more clarification.

 

[tom1972]

for £50/light i'd fit integrated JCC V50 's . selectable colour temp and IP rated for bathroom zone 1 and 2.

I have a feeling he thinks I was born yesterday

 

[Toneyz]

That's a very valid point, they are standard halogen bulbs. That isn't what they said in the initial email though. I will get more clarification.

If they are halogen then the heat produced is around 200 degrees C and could be a source of ignition if they are installed next to a joist or something combustible. Seen this so many times. reminds me when I was a Q.S. and the electrician drilled out part of a joist to get this halogen downlight in "well it's fire rated isn't it".