UK Wiring External lights

[SS88NI]

Planning a decking project for the rear garden, looking to install 2 bulkhead lights on the fence adjacent to the decking and LED lights around the base.

My plan was to install and external socket which will connect to the mains via a 3 plug pin, is it suitable for the External socket to power LED decking light via 1 3 pin plug and the 2 bulkhead lights to another 3pin plug? or am i overloading?

I also have a External light with PIR, if needs be i could remove this and install the bulkhead light via this connection?

Any advise will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in Advance

 

[pc1966]

I don't know the rules for NI but it might be that adding an external socket, etc, would require certification and local authority notification. Other on this forum will know much better than me.

In terms of power you will not be anywhere near the limit for a 13A socket, but for anything outdoors you have to consider both water (and insects, etc) getting in and the effects of UV light on some types of cable causing them to degrade. Also anything that is within touching height outside has the additional safety hazard of faults potentially causing a fatal electric shock due to someone also being conductive to the true ground.

You might already have the 13A circuits protected by an RCD in which case that is OK, but you really need to check.

Recently light circuits would be RCD protected as well, but many older installation are not, so if you have any plans to power this from an existing PIR light cable (which may be very convenient as the cable is already accessible outdoors) you need to check what sort of circuit (and any RCD protection) is used for it.

If none of the above made sense than get in a professional!

 

[Dustydazzler]

Absolutely , in fact it is probably the easiest way for a very basic job

 

[radiohead]

If you can plug an external socket into an indoor socket then that's a very simple way of doing it and perfectly adequate. Make absolutely sure the indoor socket you are coming from is protected by a 30ma RCD in the DB/CU.

 

[ipf]

Absolutely , in fact it is probably the easiest way for a very basic job

Yep. Ain't it good to see a bit of common sense from a DIYer.
Well done SS.
…...don't forget the RCD, though.

 

[pc1966]

If you can plug an external socket into an indoor socket then that's a very simple way of doing it and perfectly adequate. Make absolutely sure the indoor socket you are coming from is protected by a 30ma RCD in the DB/CU.

This is definitely the quickest and easiest solution if it is possible!

If you need the sockets to be outside due to cable lengths, etc, then the twin 13A type you show is ideal to make a "fixed" extension cable.

Just make sure you get a suitable gland for the cable to seal it where it enters the external socket box, and better if you can fit on the bottom as any imperfections in the seal are unlikely to let water in. To use it at the 13A capability (in case you ever plan on using it for power tools, lawnmower, etc) you should get something like 3-core 1.5mm cable.

Some of those "sealed" sockets have points in the backing box where you are supposed to create a hole to let any water out (e.g. condensation, etc). Should be clear from the instructions.

If you don't have RCD protection for your property then you can get RCD adaptors (or even wire-on plugs) which would also be a simple way to make a safe external power outlet.

However, one disadvantage of many RCD adaptors is they have a "no volt" release, so have to be turned on after any power failure. This is deliberate so power tools don't come to life unexpectedly if the supply fails and is restored with the tool still switched on!

 

[SS88NI]

Yep. Ain't it good to see a bit of common sense from a DIYer.
Well done SS.
…...don't forget the RCD, though.

Yes, property I fitted with RCD protection
[automerge]1585253366[/automerge]

This is definitely the quickest and easiest solution if it is possible!

If you need the sockets to be outside due to cable lengths, etc, then the twin 13A type you show is ideal to make a "fixed" extension cable.

Just make sure you get a suitable gland for the cable to seal it where it enters the external socket box, and better if you can fit on the bottom as any imperfections in the seal are unlikely to let water in. To use it at the 13A capability (in case you ever plan on using it for power tools, lawnmower, etc) you should get something like 3-core 1.5mm cable.

Some of those "sealed" sockets have points in the backing box where you are supposed to create a hole to let any water out (e.g. condensation, etc). Should be clear from the instructions.

If you don't have RCD protection for your property then you can get RCD adaptors (or even wire-on plugs) which would also be a simple way to make a safe external power outlet.

However, one disadvantage of many RCD adaptors is they have a "no volt" release, so have to be turned on after any power failure. This is deliberate so power tools don't come to life unexpectedly if the supply fails and is restored with the tool still switched on!

Thanks for the reply, I’ll go with
3-core 1.5mm cable, the internal socket will be coming high level from my bedroom, hole already drilled for old sky cable which will be removed, I assume I’ll not need armoured cable as not underground.

 

[pc1966]

Armoured wire (SWA) is great but probably overkill for your application. Strictly speaking you should get wire that is rated for outdoor use (i.e. UV hardened) but often that is not flexible (so difficult to use with a 13A plug, but OK for a fused switch outlet) and/or only available in big reels.

Some examples are:

• Tuf-sheath cable (such as "NYYJ3C1.5") which looks like normal 3-core but harder cover and single-core, so unsuited to repeated bending, available by the meter from CEF.
• Silicone Rubber sheathed cable, typically for high temperature use (e.g., boiler or immersion heater, etc). Easy to flex and surprisingly resistant to most things. RS sell it on 25m reels for £60 but out of stock which I just looked (e.g. path number 744-0981 or 744-0985)
• Flexishield cable to BS 8436 (a bit like armoured, but aluminium foil instead of steel wires), designed to be safe if penetrated by a nail, etc, but also UV tolerant. CEF sell it by 100m drum only at around £110
• H07RN-F flexible cable "recommended in dry , damp or wet workshops, indoor and outdoor, for example in explosive atmosphere ( as ATEX) according to regulation of the country and with some additional recommendations and also for industrial devices and agricultures workshops"

I think the rubber flex type "HO7RNF3C1.5" is suitable for outdoor use and possibly your best choice if using a 13A plug, etc. Also it is available by the meter from suppliers such as Superlec and CEF, etc.

 

[MJPD29]

I don't know the rules for NI but it might be that adding an external socket, etc, would require certification and local authority notification. Other on this forum will know much better than me.

In terms of power you will not be anywhere near the limit for a 13A socket, but for anything outdoors you have to consider both water (and insects, etc) getting in and the effects of UV light on some types of cable causing them to degrade. Also anything that is within touching height outside has the additional safety hazard of faults potentially causing a fatal electric shock due to someone also being conductive to the true ground.

You might already have the 13A circuits protected by an RCD in which case that is OK, but you really need to check.

Recently light circuits would be RCD protected as well, but many older installation are not, so if you have any plans to power this from an existing PIR light cable (which may be very convenient as the cable is already accessible outdoors) you need to check what sort of circuit (and any RCD protection) is used for it.

If none of the above made sense than get in a professional!

Rules for the north are exact same as mainland except no part P whatsoever so no notification etc required. No differences apart from that

 

[SS88NI]

Armoured wire (SWA) is great but probably overkill for your application. Strictly speaking you should get wire that is rated for outdoor use (i.e. UV hardened) but often that is not flexible (so difficult to use with a 13A plug, but OK for a fused switch outlet) and/or only available in big reels.

Some examples are:

• Tuf-sheath cable (such as "NYYJ3C1.5") which looks like normal 3-core but harder cover and single-core, so unsuited to repeated bending, available by the meter from CEF.
• Silicone Rubber sheathed cable, typically for high temperature use (e.g., boiler or immersion heater, etc). Easy to flex and surprisingly resistant to most things. RS sell it on 25m reels for £60 but out of stock which I just looked (e.g. path number 744-0981 or 744-0985)
• Flexishield cable to BS 8436 (a bit like armoured, but aluminium foil instead of steel wires), designed to be safe if penetrated by a nail, etc, but also UV tolerant. CEF sell it by 100m drum only at around £110
• H07RN-F flexible cable "recommended in dry , damp or wet workshops, indoor and outdoor, for example in explosive atmosphere ( as ATEX) according to regulation of the country and with some additional recommendations and also for industrial devices and agricultures workshops"

I think the rubber flex type "HO7RNF3C1.5" is suitable for outdoor use and possibly your best choice if using a 13A plug, etc. Also it is available by the meter from suppliers such as Superlec and CEF, etc.

Thanks for the reply and taking the time to recommend products!!

 

[pc1966]

Rules for the north are exact same as mainland except no part P whatsoever so no notification etc required. No differences apart from that

Thanks for clarifying that, I think that is similar to Scotland (at least for now).

 

[telectrix]

2nd vote for HO7RHf. esy to use and souitable for environment.

 

[SS88NI]

Armoured wire (SWA) is great but probably overkill for your application. Strictly speaking you should get wire that is rated for outdoor use (i.e. UV hardened) but often that is not flexible (so difficult to use with a 13A plug, but OK for a fused switch outlet) and/or only available in big reels.

Some examples are:

• Tuf-sheath cable (such as "NYYJ3C1.5") which looks like normal 3-core but harder cover and single-core, so unsuited to repeated bending, available by the meter from CEF.
• Silicone Rubber sheathed cable, typically for high temperature use (e.g., boiler or immersion heater, etc). Easy to flex and surprisingly resistant to most things. RS sell it on 25m reels for £60 but out of stock which I just looked (e.g. path number 744-0981 or 744-0985)
• Flexishield cable to BS 8436 (a bit like armoured, but aluminium foil instead of steel wires), designed to be safe if penetrated by a nail, etc, but also UV tolerant. CEF sell it by 100m drum only at around £110
• H07RN-F flexible cable "recommended in dry , damp or wet workshops, indoor and outdoor, for example in explosive atmosphere ( as ATEX) according to regulation of the country and with some additional recommendations and also for industrial devices and agricultures workshops"

I think the rubber flex type "HO7RNF3C1.5" is suitable for outdoor use and possibly your best choice if using a 13A plug, etc. Also it is available by the meter from suppliers such as Superlec and CEF, etc.

Will HO7RNF3C1.5 also be my best choice for wiring the bulkhead lights?

What is the best way to wire the bulkhead lights series or parallel?

 

[telectrix]

wire in parallel. series would give you 240/X volts per light. where X =no.of lights.
do you know the difference?

 

[SS88NI]

wire in parallel. series would give you 240/X volts per light. where X =no.of lights.
do you know the difference?

Yes in Series i would get 120v per light,

Whereas in parallel i will get a full power to both lights.

What do i need to enable me to do this, a junction Box?

 

[pc1966]

If you are only having a 13A fuse in the plug then you should be using something like HO7RNF3C1.5 all the way so it can handle any fault current, also it might be simpler for ordering and neater to make it all the same.

How you connect and if you need a junction box would depend on the physical details of the lights, etc, and how you plan on laying them out. The dual 13A socket probably has multiple knock-out holes so you can easily wire in to one hole (with a suitable gland) and then daisy-chain out another hole to the lights if you go that way.

It is not clear from the picture of the lights if you could get two cables in to the back of them, or if the internal terminals will take 2 * 1.5mm wire. I guess you would need to buy some to check that sort of detail out.

If you do go for a junction box then make sure it is rated at IP65 or higher, and get suitable glands for it. Again, for all of the outdoor stuff try to have cables come in from below, or sides if you must, but not the top as its an easy way for water to get in.
[automerge]1585323341[/automerge]
Wago do an IP65 box, but bizarrely it is supplied with IP54 cable bushes:

Wago ABOX 221 IP65 32A 5-Terminal Weatherproof Outdoor Junction Box 110mm x 110mm x 67mm - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Adaptable electrical junction box with Wago 222 Series connectors. Easy to use and provides a reliable connection for solid, stranded or flexible conductors. Ideal for lighting and power applications. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

This box is cheaper but you need bushes for any cable:

CED IP65 24A 5-Terminal Weatherproof Outdoor Adaptable Box 80mm x 52mm x 80mm - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Adaptable boxes complete with terminals. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

Here are some bushes that the Q&A says will do 6-12mm and the suggested cable is specified as 9.2-10.7mm so ought to work:

Tower Nylon Male Comp Gland 20mm 2 Pack - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. IP68. For terminating various cables. With neoprene rubber seal. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

But you can get similar stuff from Toolstation, CEF, etc.

 

[telectrix]

depends on the lights. if they have 2 cable entrys, pref. at bottom, then loop through and make connections in the light.

 

[SS88NI]

If you are only having a 13A fuse in the plug then you should be using something like HO7RNF3C1.5 all the way so it can handle any fault current, also it might be simpler for ordering and neater to make it all the same.

How you connect and if you need a junction box would depend on the physical details of the lights, etc, and how you plan on laying them out. The dual 13A socket probably has multiple knock-out holes so you can easily wire in to one hole (with a suitable gland) and then daisy-chain out another hole to the lights if you go that way.

It is not clear from the picture of the lights if you could get two cables in to the back of them, or if the internal terminals will take 2 * 1.5mm wire. I guess you would need to buy some to check that sort of detail out.

If you do go for a junction box then make sure it is rated at IP65 or higher, and get suitable glands for it. Again, for all of the outdoor stuff try to have cables come in from below, or sides if you must, but not the top as its an easy way for water to get in.
[automerge]1585323341[/automerge]
Wago do an IP65 box, but bizarrely it is supplied with IP54 cable bushes:

Wago ABOX 221 IP65 32A 5-Terminal Weatherproof Outdoor Junction Box 110mm x 110mm x 67mm - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Adaptable electrical junction box with Wago 222 Series connectors. Easy to use and provides a reliable connection for solid, stranded or flexible conductors. Ideal for lighting and power applications. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

This box is cheaper but you need bushes for any cable:

CED IP65 24A 5-Terminal Weatherproof Outdoor Adaptable Box 80mm x 52mm x 80mm - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Adaptable boxes complete with terminals. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

Here are some bushes that the Q&A says will do 6-12mm and the suggested cable is specified as 9.2-10.7mm so ought to work:

Tower Nylon Male Comp Gland 20mm 2 Pack - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. IP68. For terminating various cables. With neoprene rubber seal. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

But you can get similar stuff from Toolstation, CEF, etc.

If I run parallel I will defo need a junction box am I correct in saying that? Main feed into the junction box and take 2 feeds out, one to each light?

 

[pc1966]

If I run parallel I will defo need a junction box am I correct in saying that? Main feed into the junction box and take 2 feeds out, one to each light?

You might be able to make the junction in one light, but it depends on the physical details of how it handles cable entry, etc. Simplest option with no junction box would be:

13A plug ---> outdoor 13A socket ---> Bulkhead Light #1 ---> Bulkhead Light #2

If that is not practical then something like:

13A plug ---> outdoor 13A socket --->
Junction Box
---> Bulkhead Light #1
---> Bulkhead Light #2

Yes, this is a rubbish way to show it using ASCII art where it wont keep spacing!

 

[SS88NI]

You might be able to make the junction in one light, but it depends on the physical details of how it handles cable entry, etc. Simplest option with no junction box would be:

13A plug ---> outdoor 13A socket ---> Bulkhead Light #1 ---> Bulkhead Light #2

If that is not practical then something like:

13A plug ---> outdoor 13A socket --->
Junction Box
---> Bulkhead Light #1
---> Bulkhead Light #2

Yes, this is a rubbish way to show it using ASCII art where it wont keep spacing!

No that’s perfect, and understandable, this really is a great forum, quick replies with people willing to help.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I have fished in Northern Ireland and the midges are an absolute nightmare consider how many you will attract with your patio lights, factor in a bug repellent on your new circuit.

 

[SS88NI]

Just to confirm, the upstairs ring that i am connecting into is protected by RCD/RCCB so i will not need an external RCD.

 

[telectrix]

Just to confirm, the upstairs ring that i am connecting into is protected by RCD/RCCB so i will not need an external RCD.

View attachment 56843

that's a sensible CU. don't allow the scaremongers try and tell you it's now "illegal" as it does not comply with current regs.

 

[SS88NI]

that's a sensible CU. don't allow the scaremongers try and tell you it's now "illegal" as it does not comply with current regs.

But i am protected which is the main thing, i assume 'illegal' as not up to current regs, but would have been in 2007 when installed

 

[telectrix]

But i am protected which is the main thing, i assume 'illegal' as not up to current regs, but would have been in 2007 when installed

exactly. current regs. call for all lighting circuits, cables in walls buried < 2" deep, and all circuits supplying bathrooms. nevertheless it's a bloody good idea to have fridges and freezers non-RCD in spite of the regs...... at home our garage circuit ( 3 freezers, a fridge freezer, sauna, my workbench, all non-RCD, risk assessment in my yed.

 

[pc1966]

There was at least one well publicised case of some young woman who was killed by a nail that had punctured a cable and was not picked up by the cowboy installers during insulation testing, one of the arguments for RCD'ing everything you can in the more recent versions of the regs.

But as Telectrix points out there are good reasons to have some circuits on MCBs instead (in terms on not having nuisance tripping). One way round the risk-of-nailing problem is to use Flexishield cable (stuff to BS 8436) that has an earthed metallic shield rated able to trip the MCB, etc, in the event of being accidentally nailed.

Edited to add: as already covered the wiring regs are not retrospective, so as long as your setup is safe and undamaged to the regulations at the time it was installed then no problem. Even if there are issues with a repair or new circuit, the wording of guidance, etc, allows for some judgment to be applied so as long as things are sufficiently safe then you don't need a new unit. What is an issue 15 year or more down the line is getting replacement breakers, etc, that are in good condition. That, as much as anything else, may be the case for a CU replacement (as well as improvements like RCBOs per circuit instead of one RCD for several, etc).

 

[radiohead]

There was at least one well publicised case of some young woman who was killed by a nail that had punctured a cable and was not picked up by the cowboy installers during insulation testing, one of the arguments for RCD'ing everything you can in the more recent versions of the regs.

I recall the electrocuted lady incident. I would point out though that if a metal frame partition wall is not at earth potential, which it is unlikely to be if it is simply a standalone wall secured to timber, a standard insulation test may not pick up a fault between a live conductor and the frame. I do not know exactly what testing was carried out or whether the job was properly certificated but I am always concerned that when these kind of incidents are publicised it is always assumed that a cowboy was responsible. There are circumstances where even diligent testing may not pick up a potentially dangerous fault, we are all one mistake away from killing someone. Anyone who thinks only cowboys miss things or make mistakes which could have serious consequences is kidding themselves.

 

[telectrix]

There was at least one well publicised case of some young woman who was killed by a nail that had punctured a cable and was not picked up by the cowboy installers during insulation testing, one of the arguments for RCD'ing everything you can in the more recent versions of the regs.

But as Telectrix points out there are good reasons to have some circuits on MCBs instead (in terms on not having nuisance tripping). One way round the risk-of-nailing problem is to use Flexishield cable (stuff to BS 8436) that has an earthed metallic shield rated able to trip the MCB, etc, in the event of being accidentally nailed.

Edited to add: as already covered the wiring regs are not retrospective, so as long as your setup is safe and undamaged to the regulations at the time it was installed then no problem. Even if there are issues with a repair or new circuit, the wording of guidance, etc, allows for some judgment to be applied so as long as things are sufficiently safe then you don't need a new unit. What is an issue 15 year or more down the line is getting replacement breakers, etc, that are in good condition. That, as much as anything else, may be the case for a CU replacement (as well as improvements like RCBOs per circuit instead of one RCD for several, etc).

in the case of the electrocution, i understand that the woman's husband or father fitted a utensil rack after the installation was complete. quite probably with the nail/screw not quite shorting. apparently they had been experiencing shocks for some time before the tragedy. she was in contact with the earted casaing of a dishwaher or similar which was the reason for the fatality. so why had they not called a spark to investigate and remedy when experiencing several shocks?

 

[pc1966]

Anyone who thinks only cowboys miss things or make mistakes which could have serious consequences is kidding themselves.

That is a very valid point, and a good reason for taking care in installing, care in testing, and not allowing any "odd result" to be ignored.

I don't know what happened in court, maybe someone on this forum will have read about that, but that case resulted in a prosecution and I doubt very much it would have got that for had it only been a "simple mistake" that led to her death.
[automerge]1585757028[/automerge]
Seems there is a write up here but not much information about the specific issues, though the £1000 fine is quite low suggesting his negligence was not considered major:

Electrician fined £1,000 after young mother dies in her home

A 22ﾖyear-old mother died after being electrocuted whilst attempting to deal with her leaking boiler, Wolverhampton Crown Court has heard.

www.shponline.co.uk

More here if anyone is interested, seems a number of factors but not a detailed report on the evidence:

Electrocuted West Bromwich mum Emma Shaw was killed unlawfully, inquest jury rules

AN inquest jury has ruled that a Midland mum found electrocuted at her home next to a boiler was unlawfully killed.

www.birminghammail.co.uk

 

[radiohead]

If there was a prosecution then clearly negligence was involved. However I would make the point again that it is not a given that standard IR testing as normally carried out will pick up a fault to metal frame partitions and the like.

 

[pc1966]

If there was a prosecution then clearly negligence was involved. However I would make the point again that it is not a given that standard IR testing as normally carried out will pick up a fault to metal frame partitions and the like.

True, it may not be that low a value and given the past guidance allowed values as low a 1M to be passed it seems plausible an inexperienced tester might not question it. Guidance notes 3 say below 20M on a new installation should be investigated, but even that bothers me!

My own flat, wired in the early 80s long before I moved in, has all circuits above 1G except the rear rooms' lighting which varies from 250M to above 750M depending on the weather (as far as I can tell). No Wago boxes then unfortunately and the muppets put most of the joints in the false ceiling area before it was plasterboard so many are inaccessible otherwise I would have tried to pin down the reason while bored witless these days
[automerge]1585757905[/automerge]
There was a lot more on one of the IET forums, but posting links to it seems not to work, so here is the message from there:

"The case relates to the Death of 22 year old Emma Shaw who was the occupant with her 18 child month of a rented 1st floor flat in West Bromwich in December 2007.

The flat was one of new 42 flats that had electrical installation carried out by Anchor Building and Electrical services an NICEIC Approved Contractor in 2006.

The internal walls were constructed of "C" section metal studwork covered with plasterboard. A hall cupboard contained a pressurised water boiler above which was mounted a consumer unit supplied from a distribution circuit from a switch fuse in a an riser cupboard external to the flat. The means of earthing was TN-C-S. None of the circuits in the consumer unit were RCD protected. Circuit No. 3 supplied one of the immersion heaters in the boiler.

The electrical installation had been 1st fixed the plaster board fitted to the metal studding before the installation was 2nd fixed. Circuit 3 supplied a 20A double pole switch at high level which supplied a cable outlet at low level, this in turn supplied the water heater in flex.

The cable to the flex outlet was longer than it should be and when the plasterboard was installed the cable was trapped between the plasterboard and the stud-work. In addition a plasterboard screw passed through the cable clipping the Line and CPC conductors and in to the studwork.

The installation had been energised without any testing and the fault current had blown away part of the screw and CPC. This was verified by forensic examination at the HSE laboratories. This left a high resistance fault from the line conductor to the metal studwork.

18 months later the stat. on the water heater failed and the cylinder over pressurised and the safety valve operated and the safety valve operated and discharged in to a tun dish. The plastic waste pipe from the tun dish had parted because it was not glued and the water spilled on to the floor soaking the carpet. The water soaked under the foot of the wall and in to contact with the live studwork.

Miss Shaw was mopping up the water and had texted her partner to come home telling him the hall was flooded and the "electricity was sparking". he partner tetxed back to say to turn off the water stop cock sited in the same cupboard as the boiler.

Later she was found kneeling in the cupboard slumped forward and apparently lifeless. Subsequent examination and a Post Mortum determined that she was kneeling in the charged water and received a fatal shock when she touched the earthed stop valve.

West Midlands Police, the ambulance service and the fire service attended the scene. The police commenced an investigation for a suspicious death.

The police later arrested both the QS Hoult and Tomkins the electricians mate and they were interviewed under caution. Tomkins had signed an Electrical Installation Certificate as the Inspector. He admitted he was not qualified or competent to do so. He said he had been taken to the flat by the electrical site foreman and told to do ring continuity and loop impedance testing.He said when he got to the flat the installation was already energised. He did no other inspection and testing. He said that in the site hut they had sat around the table with the site foreman and was told the other tests had been done and he was told what to write on the test certificate.

This EIC was submitted to Anchors offices where a type written certificate was produced. The type written version had differences to Tomkins hand written version. The typed version had "P/P C Tomkins" in the single signature box for design. construction and inspection. Tomkins said in court he had not seen the typed form and he would not have consented to his signature being used. Mr Hoult the QS said that he just checked the figures on the form and signed it as the QS. he did not go to site and was not involved in the testing and inspection. Mr Hoult had known Tomkins for many years and it was alleged he knew about Tomkins status as a mate and his lack of qualifications. "
[automerge]1585758091[/automerge]
Apologies to the OP for what looks like a hijacking of this thread!

 

[Midwest]

This was that other particular case, that also gave rise to a Part P myth;

Was Part P Introduced Following the Death of MP's Daughter? | Tradeskills4u

Time has a way of twisting the truth and since Part P was introduced a number of rumours have been going around as to why. The main one that most people in the industry believe to be true is that Part P was introduced and rushed through the parliamentary process because an MP’s daughter was...

www.tradeskills4u.co.uk

 

[pc1966]

This was that other particular case, that also gave rise to a Part P myth;

Was Part P Introduced Following the Death of MP's Daughter? | Tradeskills4u

Time has a way of twisting the truth and since Part P was introduced a number of rumours have been going around as to why. The main one that most people in the industry believe to be true is that Part P was introduced and rushed through the parliamentary process because an MP’s daughter was...

www.tradeskills4u.co.uk

Ah, I think that is the case Telectrix was talking about (not Emma Shaw's).

 

[radiohead]

Thanks for posting that text pc1966. From the information given it is clear that the fault which caused the fatality would have been identified if correct procedure had been followed.

 

[SS88NI]

True, it may not be that low a value and given the past guidance allowed values as low a 1M to be passed it seems plausible an inexperienced tester might not question it. Guidance notes 3 say below 20M on a new installation should be investigated, but even that bothers me!

My own flat, wired in the early 80s long before I moved in, has all circuits above 1G except the rear rooms' lighting which varies from 250M to above 750M depending on the weather (as far as I can tell). No Wago boxes then unfortunately and the muppets put most of the joints in the false ceiling area before it was plasterboard so many are inaccessible otherwise I would have tried to pin down the reason while bored witless these days
[automerge]1585757905[/automerge]
There was a lot more on one of the IET forums, but posting links to it seems not to work, so here is the message from there:

"The case relates to the Death of 22 year old Emma Shaw who was the occupant with her 18 child month of a rented 1st floor flat in West Bromwich in December 2007.

The flat was one of new 42 flats that had electrical installation carried out by Anchor Building and Electrical services an NICEIC Approved Contractor in 2006.

The internal walls were constructed of "C" section metal studwork covered with plasterboard. A hall cupboard contained a pressurised water boiler above which was mounted a consumer unit supplied from a distribution circuit from a switch fuse in a an riser cupboard external to the flat. The means of earthing was TN-C-S. None of the circuits in the consumer unit were RCD protected. Circuit No. 3 supplied one of the immersion heaters in the boiler.

The electrical installation had been 1st fixed the plaster board fitted to the metal studding before the installation was 2nd fixed. Circuit 3 supplied a 20A double pole switch at high level which supplied a cable outlet at low level, this in turn supplied the water heater in flex.

The cable to the flex outlet was longer than it should be and when the plasterboard was installed the cable was trapped between the plasterboard and the stud-work. In addition a plasterboard screw passed through the cable clipping the Line and CPC conductors and in to the studwork.

The installation had been energised without any testing and the fault current had blown away part of the screw and CPC. This was verified by forensic examination at the HSE laboratories. This left a high resistance fault from the line conductor to the metal studwork.

18 months later the stat. on the water heater failed and the cylinder over pressurised and the safety valve operated and the safety valve operated and discharged in to a tun dish. The plastic waste pipe from the tun dish had parted because it was not glued and the water spilled on to the floor soaking the carpet. The water soaked under the foot of the wall and in to contact with the live studwork.

Miss Shaw was mopping up the water and had texted her partner to come home telling him the hall was flooded and the "electricity was sparking". he partner tetxed back to say to turn off the water stop cock sited in the same cupboard as the boiler.

Later she was found kneeling in the cupboard slumped forward and apparently lifeless. Subsequent examination and a Post Mortum determined that she was kneeling in the charged water and received a fatal shock when she touched the earthed stop valve.

West Midlands Police, the ambulance service and the fire service attended the scene. The police commenced an investigation for a suspicious death.

The police later arrested both the QS Hoult and Tomkins the electricians mate and they were interviewed under caution. Tomkins had signed an Electrical Installation Certificate as the Inspector. He admitted he was not qualified or competent to do so. He said he had been taken to the flat by the electrical site foreman and told to do ring continuity and loop impedance testing.He said when he got to the flat the installation was already energised. He did no other inspection and testing. He said that in the site hut they had sat around the table with the site foreman and was told the other tests had been done and he was told what to write on the test certificate.

This EIC was submitted to Anchors offices where a type written certificate was produced. The type written version had differences to Tomkins hand written version. The typed version had "P/P C Tomkins" in the single signature box for design. construction and inspection. Tomkins said in court he had not seen the typed form and he would not have consented to his signature being used. Mr Hoult the QS said that he just checked the figures on the form and signed it as the QS. he did not go to site and was not involved in the testing and inspection. Mr Hoult had known Tomkins for many years and it was alleged he knew about Tomkins status as a mate and his lack of qualifications. "
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Apologies to the OP for what looks like a hijacking of this thread!

Haha or a problem makes for interesting reading during isolation,

 

[SS88NI]

Quick update - no longer going to run with led
Decking lights, 2 bulkhead lights only, however im toying with the idea of installing amp with speakers etc for playing music

However I’m wondering would it be possible to run a trailing socket to the amp approx 5m from the external power source and plugging the amp into the trailing socket

or

Because im effectively running an extension from an extension am I better getting a longer cable that runs to the dc adaptor and powering from the external power supply

hope this makes sense

thanks in advance

 

[pc1966]

Generally you would be better installing a 2nd outdoor socket closer to where you plan on plugging stuff in with the outdoor cable appropriately fixed to the wall, etc, in preference to trailing an extension lead (that runs a greater risk of folk tripping on it, or drinks, etc, being spilled over a plug/socket lying on the deck).

Obviously your total load is still limited by the 13A plug feeding it, and really you ought to plan on slightly lower load in any case, but if all you are wanting is some lights and a bit of music or occasional outdoor appliance that is not going to be a limitation. It would be no different to a 4-socket extension cable after all.

 

[SS88NI]

Generally you would be better installing a 2nd outdoor socket closer to where you plan on plugging stuff in with the outdoor cable appropriately fixed to the wall, etc, in preference to trailing an extension lead (that runs a greater risk of folk tripping on it, or drinks, etc, being spilled over a plug/socket lying on the deck).

Obviously your total load is still limited by the 13A plug feeding it, and really you ought to plan on slightly lower load in any case, but if all you are wanting is some lights and a bit of music or occasional outdoor appliance that is not going to be a limitation. It would be no different to a 4-socket extension cable after all.

Lead will be pinned to the underside of the deck and into a void at the end of the deck housing the equipment, so that rules out the potential trip hazard,

for the amp etc I was was going to Power it with 24v 6amp adapter, this can be reduced to 12v does this help or am I better with 24v

 

[DPG]

Lead will be pinned to the underside of the deck and into a void at the end of the deck housing the equipment, so that rules out the potential trip hazard,

for the amp etc I was was going to Power it with 24v 6amp adapter, this can be reduced to 12v does this help or am I better with 24v

Depends on what the amp needs.

 

[SS88NI]

Depends on what the amp needs.

needs to be greater than 3amp, it’s only a small Bluetooth amp,