Those lovely plumbers

[sparkinlee]

I've done first fix on a house rewire, and am followed by the plumbers putting in a completely new central heating system. I go upstairs to find, under the landing floor:



A whole bundle of cables sandwiched between heating flow and return pipes!

I've put foam insulation on the pipes to try to protect the cables from the direct heat, but do I need to insist the plumber adjusts the pipes? I don't fancy pulling the cables out to re-route - one of them I'm sure is the upstairs lighting feed continuous from CU downstairs to loft!

 

[morph]

yep its what they do , their pipes are fine so its all cool for them

 

[Marvo]

You're lucky, he's obviously a fully qualified plumber, there's usually scorch marks on the cables from the blowtorch when they solder a coupling nearby.

 

[telectrix]

get the cowboys back. i hate RAF plumbers

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Is it just me or do others think that plumbing courses should include "mutual detrimental influences" such as what we have to comply with? Maybe they are told/trained in this but clearly the message isn`t getting through.........come across this myself loads.......

 

[Marvo]

"mutual detrimental influences"

You'd need to rename that course using words of one syllable.

 

[sparkinlee]

You'd need to rename that course using words of one syllable.

"Don't put pipes on wires"

 

[telectrix]

or use one of these

 

[Richard Burns]

With a "layer of insulating material" protecting the cables from the very detrimental influence you should be OK (not ideal) but OK.
Thanks plumbers!

 

[telectrix]

few weeks ago i had to replace some 600mm flush florries. the ones that take up 2 ceiling tiles. one of them wouldn't budge. bloody plumber had run 2 copper pipes tight across the top of it. plonker. he didn't half curse when he had to cut and re-route them FOC.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

But as the o/p said...pipe bashers came in afterwards so surely the responsibility lies with them.....stuff like this can go unnoticed and be simmering away for an age with potentially dire consequences......yet another example of a lack of due care and attention. How come they can get away with it......

 

[GLENNSPARK]

few weeks ago i had to replace some 600mm flush florries. the ones that take up 2 ceiling tiles. one of them wouldn't budge. bloody plumber had run 2 copper pipes tight across the top of it. plonker. he didn't half curse when he had to cut and re-route them FOC.

He can curse all he likes for me....he did it...he sorts it:yesnod:

 

[telectrix]

not all that way round though. was on a new build once and one of our guts drilled through a stud wall with a 8mm bit and threaded an alarm cable through. a week later, the plumbers turned on the water and water came spurting through the wall. when they smashed off a big hole in the plasterboard they found that he'd drilled right through a 15mm copper pipe and threaded the alarm cable through the pipe. these were good plumberers though. they cut out the pipe with the cable through it and re-jigged the pipework, leaving a 6" length of pipe floating with the cable intact still through it. probably still there 30 years on. LOL.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

not all that way round though. was on a new build once and one of our guts drilled through a stud wall with a 8mm bit and threaded an alarm cable through. a week later, the plumbers turned on the water and water came spurting through the wall. when they smashed off a big hole in the plasterboard they found that he'd drilled right through a 15mm copper pipe and threaded the alarm cable through the pipe. these were good plumberers though. they cut out the pipe with the cable through it and re-jigged the pipework, leaving a 6" length of pipe floating with the cable intact still through it. probably still there 30 years on. LOL.

No chance of getting any grommets on it then?..lol......

 

[Geordie Spark]

As far as I'm concerned heating pipes & cables shouldn't even be in the same void.

 

[Dunc]

Is it just me or do others think that plumbing courses should include "mutual detrimental influences" such as what we have to comply with? Maybe they are told/trained in this but clearly the message isn`t getting through.........come across this myself loads.......

Send the loft insulation guys on the same course! Think they're gonna be the ones who burn down a house first due to their complete disregard for our installation methods and recessed lights! :rant:

 

[oldtimer]

Be very aware because my businenss is electrical repair I have lost count of the ammount of plumbers who have upgraded an electric shower and decided to swap a 7.5kw with a 9kw and because its on a rewireable fuse nothing shows up until 3-4 months later I get a call saying there is a burning smell coming from the switch/pullcord/fuseboard

 

[RexT]

Hi sparkinlee,

It would be worth politely pointing it out to the plumbers, but in the real life world I guess they only care for the time of the install and not for safety.
You could draw it to the attention of the employer / owner and ask how you are going to provide paperwork saying it is safe now?
When you installed the cables they were safe and now the status is a bit different!
Good luck with this one, diplomacy is probably better in the long run rather than a lot of aggro.
Best wishes
Rex

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Be very aware because my businenss is electrical repair I have lost count of the ammount of plumbers who have upgraded an electric shower and decided to swap a 7.5kw with a 9kw and because its on a rewireable fuse nothing shows up until 3-4 months later I get a call saying there is a burning smell coming from the switch/pullcord/fuseboard

That one of the problems with BS3036s isn`t it.....a bit strong arnt they...........

 

[Engineer54]

That one of the problems with BS3036s isn`t it.....a bit strong arnt they...........

When i was a lad, they used to classify that 3036 rewireables as ''course'' protection and cartridge fuses/MCBs were ''fine'' protection. To bring the rewireable type fuses up a notch, they slapped the present multiplication factor on those course protected circuits....

 

[oldtimer]

That one of the problems with BS3036s isn`t it.....a bit strong arnt they...........

Correct but as we all know the extra load shows up any worn or slack connections and then your the guy getting it in tight because the "customer" is jumping up and down and thinks you are holding them to ransom because they cannot live without their shower.

 

[UNG]

When i was a lad, they used to classify that 3036 rewireables as ''course'' protection and cartridge fuses/MCBs were ''fine'' protection.

I remember it as coarse excess current protection and close excess current protection don't remember a "fine" protection!

 

[oldtimer]

I remember it as coarse excess current protection and close excess current protection don't remember a "fine" protection!

Maybe he means the plumber said that will do fine ie nobody will notice

 

[OldeSparky]

well plumbers only need to know 2 things... what time is brew time and **** goes downwards..


hate plumbers with a passion.. they really do think they are the better trade..

 

[rsmck]

I had a similar situation where plumbers had ran heating pipes over cables, thankfully they moved most of them on my request but there is still one boxed in section where they installed plastic (flexible) central heating pipework beside many T&E cables. These pipes moved quite considerably when the heating was on, and could come into contact with the electrical wiring.

I've done my best to separate them by putting a batten the full height of the boxed section with the pipes confined to the left whilst the cables run to the right, unfortunately it means they're a little closer together than I'd like. Does anyone have any other recommendations for how to reduce the impact the heating pipes would have on the wiring in situations such as this ?

 

[telectrix]

you could fit a bit of the split pipe insulation over the pipes where they are close to the cables.

 

[Monkey]

Its a bit like the chicken and egg thing I got here first no you go first get all the boards up you put in your cables and i will come see weather your in my way Plumbers is that a sparky with his head kicked in
JOKING a bit:54:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

If there were a proper procedure at training/college level on mutual detrimental influences for all trades then this kind of nonsence wouldn`t occur. Its no good just training sparks on this....it has to be taught to any trade who`s actions can have an effect on anothers work and this isn`t just about inconvenience....as we all know there are serious risks where cables are overheated..loop being one of them........

 

[Silly Sausage]

Just to play 'Devil's Advocate' for a second or two...
How hot do CH pipes get? Surely not up to 70degC, cable's rated at 70degC, so what's the problem?






To the OP, I'd be urined off as well.
Get the copper basher to move his pipes or as telectrix said use some foam lagging.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Just to play 'Devil's Advocate' for a second or two...
How hot do CH pipes get? Surely not up to 70degC, cable's rated at 70degC, so what's the problem?






To the OP, I'd be urined off as well.
Get the copper basher to move his pipes or as telectrix said use some foam lagging.

Yes archy but dont forget that anything over 30* and current carrying capacity starts to come down.......

 

[Engineer54]

you could fit a bit of the split pipe insulation over the pipes where they are close to the cables.

Trouble with that is, a lot of them use the foam that can take the plasticisers out of PVC cables and heat tends to exaggerate the process. I've seen that a good few times!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Trouble with that is, a lot of them use the foam that can take the plasticisers out of PVC cables and heat tends to exaggerate the process. I've seen that a good few times!!!

Polystyrene eng. Its why pvc cables should never be run in a polystyrene insulation as the polymers in the pvc tend to migrate out of it and into the polystyrene so cables become brittle and eventually will fail an IR..........

 

[Engineer54]

Polystyrene eng. Its why pvc cables should never be run in a polystyrene insulation as the polymers in the pvc tend to migrate out of it and into the polystyrene so cables become brittle and eventually will fail an IR..........

From my understanding, the loft type insulation problem has long been sorted, by introducing a different chemical make-up for the polystyrene. These foam rubbers that they use for copper pipe lagging etc, is a totally different kettle of fish. ...lol!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

From my understanding, the loft type insulation problem has long been sorted, by introducing a different chemical make-up for the polystyrene. These foam rubbers that they use for copper pipe lagging etc, is a totally different kettle of fish. ...lol!!!

I suppose its fair to say that current carrying cables should be kept away from insulation wherever full stop and plumbers should DEFINETELY be kept away from our cables FULL STOP.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Just to play 'Devil's Advocate' for a second or two...
How hot do CH pipes get? Surely not up to 70degC, cable's rated at 70degC, so what's the problem?








To the OP, I'd be urined off as well.
Get the copper basher to move his pipes or as telectrix said use some foam lagging.

A decent size Combi such as a Worcester 37CDI (which is a 37Kw job) delivers water to the radiators at up to 95 degrees C. when it's running flat-out.

As for lagging the pipes, I've always lagged them when they are under the ground floor, but left them bare under upstairs floors so that bedroom floors are warm for the feet first thing in the morning!

 

[Silly Sausage]

A decent size Combi such as a Worcester 37CDI (which is a 37Kw job) delivers water to the radiators at up to 95 degrees C. when it's running flat-out.

With my house and about 10 to 15 year old Vaillant I never have it on full blast anymore, so it never gets any where near as hot as that, it used to munch gas as if was cheap as air. Keep me jacket zipped up now if gets a bit chilly.

 

[Geordie Spark]

With my house and about 10 to 15 year old Vaillant I never have it on full blast anymore, so it never gets any where near as hot as that, it used to munch gas as if was cheap as air. Keep me jacket zipped up now if gets a bit chilly.

I keep mine turned down - or off - nowadays, the price of gas is ridiculous.

Generally, I only run a boiler flat-out when I'm testing & comissioning it.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

With my house and about 10 to 15 year old Vaillant I never have it on full blast anymore, so it never gets any where near as hot as that, it used to munch gas as if was cheap as air. Keep me jacket zipped up now if gets a bit chilly.

open fires like the old cast iron arches and stuff are the future i think......got all the fireplaces in my house in running order and a solid fuel rayburn.......wouldn`t go on gas now...not a chance...folk are being robbed...........

 

[Silly Sausage]

I'm dreaming of putting in a multifuel burner in my back room, but looking at some of the prices for a reasonable one it's going to have to wait. Got a backyard full of nice dry wood to burn as well.

 

[Geordie Spark]

open fires like the old cast iron arches and stuff are the future i think......got all the fireplaces in my house in running order and a solid fuel rayburn.......wouldn`t go on gas now...not a chance...folk are being robbed...........

I agree ..... I'm thinking about one of those for myself