socket circuit

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paddyscouse

hi can some one advise me what to use for a radial socket circuit, i was thinking about 4 mil with a 32a mcb for kitchen

would then 2.5 with a 20a mcb for other room and the same for upstairs x3 beds
 
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was not going to puting a ring in, hence 4 mill +32mcb for kitchen ?

should i use one radial circuit( 2.5 20 amp) for x 3 beds upstairs as long as i keep the run under 33 mtrs ?

also is there a limit on socket outlets for a radial socket circuit lets say a 33 mtr run at 2.5 20 amp or should this be 4 mill as osg states
 
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I still think 2 x ring circuits in 2.5 would be easier and cheaper?
You have to be quite careful with 4mm on 32A and 2.5 on 20A especially where insulation is concerned, sorry haven't got the book to hand so can't give you the exact figures.
Rings give you an unlimited number of sockets in a 100m2 area.
just a thought
 
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Personally, I use 4mm radials on a 20a breaker, and 2.5mm on rings. And that's it for sockets. Except the occasional 4mm ring due to existing insulation. For lighting, I now only use 1.5mm to allow for possible future covering with insulation.
 
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paddyscouse said:
was not going to puting a ring in, hence 4 mill +32mcb for kitchen ?

should i use one radial circuit( 2.5 20 amp) for x 3 beds upstairs as long as i keep the run under 33 mtrs ?

also is there a limit on socket outlets for a radial socket circuit lets say a 33 mtr run at 2.5 20 amp or should this be 4 mill as osg states
Click to expand...

Just curious, why would you not consider a ring circuit in possibly the most power hungry room/area in the house??

Not easy to provide a future spur/extension in a 4mm radial either....
 
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kingeri said:
For lighting, I now only use 1.5mm to allow for possible future covering with insulation.
Click to expand...

Is this as opposed to 1mm, I dont have my books to hand but isnt it 16A for 1mm and 18A for 1.5? so even with some correction factors is 1mm not up to the job?

Also surely a ring ding a ding ding in the kitchen is the way forward? wouldn't it work out cheaper, easier and be more suitable for alterations in the future?
 
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ultinator said:
Is this as opposed to 1mm, I dont have my books to hand but isnt it 16A for 1mm and 18A for 1.5? so even with some correction factors is 1mm not up to the job?

Also surely a ring ding a ding ding in the kitchen is the way forward? wouldn't it work out cheaper, easier and be more suitable for alterations in the future?
Click to expand...

Haven't got my book to hand either but I'd check its 16a for 1mm
 
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10.5A after the itchy snot monkeys have been. still capable of handling most lighting circuits.
 
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1mm fine, but 1.5mm gives real peace of mind, and costs little more. Also gives the bonus of not having to worry too much about voltage drop. Can be a bit fiddlier (is that a word?) to terminate in cruddy cheap fittings etc. - but no more so than using 4mm instead of 2.5mm on sockets - which is increasingly becoming necessary.
 
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kingeri said:
1mm fine, but 1.5mm gives real peace of mind, and costs little more. Also gives the bonus of not having to worry too much about voltage drop. Can be a bit fiddlier (is that a word?) to terminate in cruddy cheap fittings etc. - but no more so than using 4mm instead of 2.5mm on sockets - which is increasingly becoming necessary.
Click to expand...

I always used the 1.5mm for loops and 1.0mm for switch drops, just found it easier for identification when terminating, rather that trying to look for a pen to mark it or nick it
 
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If it's anything like my kitchen then a ring would be a pain in the hoop to put in due to door and window location, easier to run 2 4mm radials. Not looking forward to that job, why is it always easier in someone elses house?
 
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sedgy34 said:
Nowt wrong with 4mm radial 32A breaker for kitchen
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Maybe, so long as you don't want to break into it, to spur/extend for another or more socket outlets!!

The use of a ring circuit for general socket outlets in a Kitchen, is a no-brainer as far as i'm concerned!! Radials are fine for F/Freezers and other similar appliances. As far as i'm concerned, you design any circuit to the needs/requirements of the installation, including costs to customer, ...not to your own ''Personal'' preferences....
 
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Ive never understood why people use 1.5 in normal sized houses, absolutely no point whatsoever. 1mm is so much nicer to work with. Peace of mind? What.... incase the IEE got their regs wrong and a 1mm will in fact melt from overloading when supplying 4 pendants 4 downlights and an extractor fan......

I never use 4mm either
Always use rings for everything except fixed equipment >13 amps. Then its 2.5mm or 6mm.
I put 4 rings into a 2 bed holiday cabin the other day. All 6 electric heaters, 2 towel rails and 3 UFH's fed from rings.

I remember reading an article in PE where a guy was saying his firm always feed every bit of fixed equipment in a kitchen on its own individual circuit fed from an RCBO. So I guess this means adding an extra consumer unit, or installing a much larger one and having somewhere in the region of 5-10 circuits supplying the kitchen alone......
pointless and very expensive
 
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Dave 85 said:
Ive never understood why people use 1.5 in normal sized houses, absolutely no point whatsoever. 1mm is so much nicer to work with. Peace of mind? What.... incase the IEE got their regs wrong and a 1mm will in fact melt from overloading when supplying 4 pendants 4 downlights and an extractor fan......

I never use 4mm either
Always use rings for everything except fixed equipment >13 amps. Then its 2.5mm or 6mm.
I put 4 rings into a 2 bed holiday cabin the other day. All 6 electric heaters, 2 towel rails and 3 UFH's fed from rings.

I remember reading an article in PE where a guy was saying his firm always feed every bit of fixed equipment in a kitchen on its own individual circuit fed from an RCBO. So I guess this means adding an extra consumer unit, or installing a much larger one and having somewhere in the region of 5-10 circuits supplying the kitchen alone......
pointless and very expensive
Click to expand...

My good god, why do 'professional electrician' feature things like this, that is bad practise in a domestic dwelling as far as i'm concerned, futile wasting of customers money, extra cable/quipment wastage etc.
1mm is fine for domestic lighting on 6A even if it was immmersed in 10' of insulation, volt drop would not be an issue in a standard size 3/4 bed house, however I think most firms now use it because of minimal cost difference.
80+ years of domestic wiring have taught us that 2.5 rings are excellent in domestic dwellings, why change now?
I hate nothing more on an I+T then a girt fuseboard rammed with loads of pointless circuits, some read like this
Cooker
Water Htr.
Kitchen downflow
lounge panel htr.
hall panel htr.
Kitchen fan
Lights kitchen
Outside lights
etc.
etc.

And thats just the half of it, A testing nightmare, waste of money etc, almost like a game 'how many circuits can we cram into a 1 bed flat'
Some people think this is 'good practise' however I always say, convention is conventional for a reason!
 
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Engineer54 said:
Maybe, so long as you don't want to break into it, to spur/extend for another or more socket outlets!!

The use of a ring circuit for general socket outlets in a Kitchen, is a no-brainer as far as i'm concerned!! Radials are fine for F/Freezers and other similar appliances. As far as i'm concerned, you design any circuit to the needs/requirements of the installation, including costs to customer, ...not to your own ''Personal'' preferences....
Click to expand...

Why? nothing wrong in 3 x 4.0mm in socket!
 
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Engineer54 said:
Maybe, so long as you don't want to break into it, to spur/extend for another or more socket outlets!!

The use of a ring circuit for general socket outlets in a Kitchen, is a no-brainer as far as i'm concerned!! Radials are fine for F/Freezers and other similar appliances. As far as i'm concerned, you design any circuit to the needs/requirements of the installation, including costs to customer, ...not to your own ''Personal'' preferences....
Click to expand...

cost is neglegable from a 32A new ring circuit to a 32A 4mm Radial circuit

you can also branch off a 4mm radial to a socket with a 2.5 mm t&e
 
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sedgy34 said:
cost is neglegable from a 32A new ring circuit to a 32A 4mm Radial circuit

you can also branch off a 4mm radial to a socket with a 2.5 mm t&e
Click to expand...

Neglegable depends, maybe if your going to supply Everything from that single radial!!!

As i've pointed out previously 2 X 4MM + 2.5mm = 10.5mm Accessory terminal CSA capacity generally 10mm!! Even if you did manage to squeeze them all in, the terminal screws would be protruding beyond the accessory terminal screw guards. I also doubt if the terminal screws will have more than 3 turns on them, if they even have that!!! Not exactly clever or professional, but that's just my opinion, and experience of 4mm final circuits with UK style wall accessories on projects i've worked on... There fine so long as you dont want to break into the circuit at a wall accessory!!
 
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Engineer54 said:
Neglegable depends, maybe if your going to supply Everything from that single radial!!!

As i've pointed out previously 2 X 4MM + 2.5mm = 10.5mm Accessory terminal CSA capacity generally 10mm!! Even if you did manage to squeeze them all in, the terminal screws would be protruding beyond the accessory terminal screw guards. I also doubt if the terminal screws will have more than 3 turns on them, if they even have that!!! Not exactly clever or professional, but that's just my opinion, and experience of 4mm final circuits with UK style wall accessories on projects i've worked on... There fine so long as you dont want to break into the circuit at a wall accessory!!
Click to expand...

http://www.mkelectric.com/Documents...pecifications/T02 LOGIC PLUS Tech 355-389.pdf

As i have posted before, nothing wrong in 3 x 4.0mm in sockets. The screws don't protrude, if its good enough for MK its good enough for me! See above from MK Technical.
 
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Top Cat said:
As i have posted before, nothing wrong in 3 x 4.0mm in sockets. The screws don't protrude, if its good enough for MK its good enough for me! See above from MK Technical.
Click to expand...

Seen it!! If you believe it go ahead and try!! lol!!
It was the MK wall accessories that we had problems with. in fact i can't remember a project i've worked on for some years now where MK wasn't the preferred final circuit wall accessory manufacturer!! So, unless they have carried out a design change in the last 4 years, what i have stated stands!! ..It was once 12mm, and even then the terminal screws stood proud of the screw guards when the terminals were full!!

Commonsense should tell you, that filling anywhere near the terminal capacity will leave exposed terminal screw length.
 
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Engineer54 said:
Neglegable depends, maybe if your going to supply Everything from that single radial!!!

As i've pointed out previously 2 X 4MM + 2.5mm = 10.5mm Accessory terminal CSA capacity generally 10mm!! Even if you did manage to squeeze them all in, the terminal screws would be protruding beyond the accessory terminal screw guards. I also doubt if the terminal screws will have more than 3 turns on them, if they even have that!!! Not exactly clever or professional, but that's just my opinion, and experience of 4mm final circuits with UK style wall accessories on projects i've worked on... There fine so long as you dont want to break into the circuit at a wall accessory!!
Click to expand...

your oppinions are much respected on here but a 4mm radial is perfectly acceptable and branching off it with a 2.5mm to a socket is also acceptable (appendix 15)
many sparks use different methods this being one of them so you cant exactly say people who use different methods other than yours are unproffesional (not one of your best posts engineer 54!)
 
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OOooh...... I feel a Harry Hill moment coming on! I too remember that article in PE and also thinking what a pointless waste of profiteering - if you were doing a textbook kitchen to the OSG then that's 8 x double sockets = 8xRCBO's before you've started to even think about outlets for white goods etc.

I think I too would always opt for a ring in a kitchen if at all possible just because they (kitchens) get changed about far more often than any other room in a house does, so future proofing as well as building in some redundancy. Plus, it doesn't really matter whether 2 x 4mm AND a 2.5 will fit in a socket or not - it's a pain in the rear to make happen either which way!
 
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I always assumed that a radial would be done with a 20A fuse? to provide more protection for the cable?

would a ring not be better in this situation for volt drop problems in a radial?
 
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sedgy34 said:
your oppinions are much respected on here but a 4mm radial is perfectly acceptable and branching off it with a 2.5mm to a socket is also acceptable (appendix 15)
many sparks use different methods this being one of them so you cant exactly say people who use different methods other than yours are unproffesional (not one of your best posts engineer 54!)
Click to expand...

Sedgy, i really don't give a dame what it say's in your bible, ...saying it is always easier than actually doing it!! I'm basically talking here about spurring from wall accessories using the accessory terminals. What we ended up doing was making joints in the back boxes, which we could, as all our outlet boxes are of the deep variety, so plenty of room...
 
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This could build up to a nice sunday evening debate / rant / fight lol.
So lets get the party started ,

Rings Vs Radials ...........?
Pro's and con's...........

Discuss.......
 
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BMelectrics said:
I always assumed that a radial would be done with a 20A fuse? to provide more protection for the cable?

Depends on the CSA of the cable ? A shower circuit is a radial, as is usually high amp cookers etc,

would a ring not be better in this situation for volt drop problems in a radial?
Click to expand...

You should calculate (Refer to the regs) the ccc and the vd on any circuit you design or may be adding additional loads to ? I would of thought that was basic electrical competence to do so.
 
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