why do kitchen fitters have such a bad rep?

dawsirn · Apr 7, 2016

Not sure why there's so much negativity about kitchen fitters doing there own wiring. I've always found there work to be top notch.

Just today I found a kitchen install that had me thinking I've been doing things the hard way all these years for no good reason!

The amount of time wasted over the years installing cables in safe zones, removing and making safe unused spurs and sockets and generally altering circuits properly when I could have been using junction boxes, connectors and tape as they're only going to be tiled over anyway! I guess it doesn't matter if cables aren't in safe zones as it's unlikely anyone is ever going to screw anything onto the wall above.

Other good stuff found was the spur taken of a spur, the live cables hanging out the wall with tape over the ends, two more spurs with tape and connectors left to be tiled over, loose back boxes, various loose connections, outer sheath not entering back boxes (and the lovely JB's) and a insulation resistance fault in one of the spurs but the two photos should highlight the superb workmanship. This is from a well known large kitchen retailer too.

In case your wandering I was there to wire in downlights and UFH controls. I did make the client aware of this mess but can't imagine much happening as kitchen in being fitted next week.

ruston · Apr 7, 2016

That's one of the better ones, they must be 'qualified'.

Richard Burns · Apr 7, 2016

ruston said:
That's one of the better ones, they must be 'qualified'.

Part P qualified!

sparksburnout · Apr 7, 2016

Richard Burns said:
Part P qualified!

Does that mean that hundreds (thousands) of very competent and experienced sparky's who have to be part "P" to undertake their day to day work are a bunch of numpty's then?

Octopus · Apr 7, 2016

Part P has its downsides BUT why did they remove kitchens from the notifiable list? I see more DIY / Kev the kitchen fitter bodges in kitchens than anywhere else in houses.

Next on my list are bathrooms where "fitters" blatantly ignore the regs and Part P!

Just saying

Richard Burns · Apr 7, 2016

sparksburnout said:
Does that mean that hundreds (thousands) of very competent and experienced sparky's who have to be part "P" to undertake their day to day work are a bunch of numpty's then?

Part P is not a qualification, it is a building regulation!:lol:
However the kitchen fitters may say they are Part P qualified which has little meaning.
Part P registered is a different thing.

sparksburnout · Apr 7, 2016

Richard Burns said:
Part P is not a qualification, it is a building regulation!:lol:
However the kitchen fitters may say they are Part P qualified which has little meaning.
Part P registered is a different thing.

Yes I am aware of what it is, I didn't say it was a qualification, it is a requirement for a lot of sparks. It does not mean that they are at the level of kitchen fitters.

rolyberkin · Apr 7, 2016

Murdoch said:
Part P has its downsides BUT why did they remove kitchens from the notifiable list? I see more DIY / Kev the kitchen fitter bodges in kitchens than anywhere else in houses.

Next on my list are bathrooms where "fitters" blatantly ignore the regs and Part P!

Just saying

Fitted a new bathroom pull switch for my sister in law the other day and when testing post repair found the new metal light fitting was showing a voltage, on closer inspection found there was no earth wire, the person who fitted was 'qualified' and registered with Elecsa. Think he must have missed the day in his five week course where they covered the regs! An hour later and after scrabbling about in loft insulation and the lifting of loft boards all was well

ruston · Apr 7, 2016

Here are two pics of a hob/oven fitted by a kitchen fitter/handyman. Could I please have a look at it as we are getting a shock from the hob.
That is 1.5mm , and that is as the oven was drawn out. The cover was missing for obvious reasons.
The extractor was wired into a junction box direct to cooker wiring . The earth was cut off because it was tripping the RCD.

Pics file too big , I will post more when I downsize them.

ruston · Apr 7, 2016

Here is the other one.

Simonslimline · Apr 7, 2016

ruston said:
Here is the other one.

Crikey!

That is special. :dunce2:

ruston · Apr 7, 2016

Simonslimline said:
Crikey!

That is special. :dunce2:

There are others much worse , but they are on my Ipad.
I will have to send them to laptop and downsize them.
It is as bad as I have seen to be honest.

sparksburnout · Apr 7, 2016

ruston said:
there are others much worse , but they are on my ipad.
I will have to send them to laptop and downsize them.
It is as bad as i have seen to be honest.

worse??

ruston · Apr 7, 2016

sparksburnout said:
worse??

Well maybe not lol. But no cooker outlet or switch, all cables in a junction box behind units ,and in the old rotting metal back box with no cover on.
It is on a BS3036 with stand alone RCD.
I will post the rest of the pics tomorrow.

fall-apart-dave · Apr 8, 2016

Nowt wrong with any of that, I mean, it's all getting hidden away where no one can see and as everyone knows from their childhood, if no one saw, it didn't happen... ;o) That's the way it works, right?

Mind you at least no one died and nothing is on fire. I'd love to show you the photos from what a "kitchen fitter" did to my house... But there was nothing to photograph in the end! Mind you I use the term "kitchen fitter" loosely - the island was at a different height to the rest of the work tops, the sink drain had a rise in it, units were installed higher than the width of the kick boards and the ONE join in the worktops in my kitchen was just butted up and stuck together with "no more nails" - I was away when all this was done. They were not paid and asked to leave...

As for the wiring, a monster radial of 6 double sockets, dishwasher, and cooker all taken off a single spur that was supplying the fridge (the kitchen used to be the living room, the house has been swapped around a lot!), cooker connection caught fire, live and neutral were reversed, water ingress into a JB they had installed (which, thankfully, tripped the RCD which got me looking closely), and one double socket fed from three different points from the same "radial" they had created that then went on to power the LED lighting I have in the kitchen. No exaggerations, that was how they did it. I've had down stairs rewired since, which was what set me on to thinking about actually doing this myself.

ruston · Apr 8, 2016

The thing that is worrying is this is one that was found , how many are there that are lurking?
This house had two youngish children living there.

There was no local isolator if this hob/oven needed to be pulled out .

snowhead · Apr 8, 2016

So with all the issues above are we suggesting Part P isn't working??

I'm stunned I thought it was meant to make the whole Country safer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

telectrix · Apr 8, 2016

snowhead said:
So with all the issues above are we suggesting Part P isn't working??

I'm stunned I thought it was meant to make the whole Country safer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

of course it has. along with the advent of the Electrical Trainee's. it's making everone fit metal CUs. much safer than those dangerous plastic rubbish. :hurray:

ruston · Apr 8, 2016

To be honest , the work in the pics I depicted is just ignorance,and downright stupidity. This person would do work like this no matter what legislation is in place.
The kitchen installation was little better. just a born bodger.

snowhead · Apr 8, 2016

telectrix said:
of course it has. along with the advent of the Electrical Trainee's. it's making everyone fit metal CUs. much safer than those dangerous plastic rubbish. :hurray:

Silly I was forgetting, I don't see all those houses going up in smoke anymore.

Octopus · Apr 8, 2016

snowhead said:
So with all the issues above are we suggesting Part P isn't working??

I'm stunned I thought it was meant to make the whole Country safer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Part P doesn't apply in England to kitchens unless it has a new circuit - so blaming Part P is not relevant......

telectrix · Apr 8, 2016

OK. blame "defined scope", and all the other CPS money making schemes that encourage under-trained muppets to work on electrical installations.

stevethesparks · Apr 8, 2016

I had a simple cooker swap over to do for a landlord a week ago - or so I thought.
The original isolator was just below worktop height and behind the cooker. Before re-locating with a new switch and installing an outlet plate, it was also found that the main earthing conductor was not even in place, never mind connected, and the main water bond was loose. In addition the cooker mcb was faulty. The house had no rcd protection whatsoever.
The cooker cabling was surface mounted+trunking with no socket outlet so rcd not required for the alterations.
A young couple with child living there. Corrections made and landlord advised how dangerous the situation had been, I also advised to upgrade the CU along with some testing.
Of course no reply.

Octopus · Apr 8, 2016

telectrix said:
OK. blame "defined scope", and all the other CPS money making schemes that encourage under-trained muppets to work on electrical installations.

Not sure I agree with that. The blame, 90% of the time is the "other" trades and handymen who do electrics and have no understanding of the regs .................

A "handyman" near me advertises doing electrics, yet doesn't have ANY test kit - what a muppet, yet nobody is done to stop this happening and it seems to me that its more prevalent these days...

ruston · Apr 8, 2016

A few more from the same install. The JB was to replace the original cooker switch. The pic in the unit is the old outlet, and did not have a cover on,and shown is the 1.5mm supply to the hob and oven. The wire with the cut off earth is to the extractor, the earth was cut because it was tripping the RCD. The old back box speaks for its self.

telectrix · Apr 8, 2016

ruston said:
A few more from the same install. The JB was to replace the original cooker switch. The pic in the unit is the old outlet, and did not have a cover on,and shown is the 1.5mm supply to the hob and oven. The wire with the cut off earth is to the extractor, the earth was cut because it was tripping the RCD. The old back box speaks for its self.

nowt wrong there, once it's all plastered in. as long as the extractor is class II. :shout:

Adam W · Apr 8, 2016

Richard Burns said:
Part P is not a qualification, it is a building regulation!:lol:
However the kitchen fitters may say they are Part P qualified which has little meaning.
Part P registered is a different thing.

How would you describe the City & Guilds 2393 if it's not a qualification?

Midwest · Apr 8, 2016

Adam W said:
How would you describe the City & Guilds 2393 if it's not a qualification?

I stupidly did that one, and it's just like the 17th edition, just reading through a book and taking a multi choice exam at the end. You don't learn nothing much. Though some employers & schemes require the 17th. It look good though on your cv until they check out what the 2393 is.

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